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> Ibanez Thermion Amp, 120Watts Tube Amp for an awesome price!
fkalich
post Aug 1 2007, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Otto @ Aug 1 2007, 08:49 AM) *
120W tube amp ???

Pavel you going on a tour soon?
That thing seem to blast anything down blink.gif

Our dear friend Yngwie uses 50w tube amps but a bunch of them and they sound alot smile.gif


To double the loudness of an amp, you have to put out 8 times the wattage. I believe that is the formula.

That 120W amp might only be 20% louder than a 50 watt amp. 50 watts is enough for most people, more than enough. unless you have a lot of speakers, i believe in that case, you need the wattage to drive them. not an expert on this stuff, but i think that is correct.

edit: let me check that. you are 2.4 x the wattage. so the increase in volume would be the cube root of 2.4.

ok, start with 1.2. 1.2^3 = 1.44x.1.2 = i can see that is too small. Try a bigger number

1.3^3 = 1.69x1.3 = 2.2 approximately. ok

1.35^3 = 1.35+.405+.0675= 1.76 approx. x 1.35 = 2.4 approximately.

SO................................................

120 Watt Ibanez amp is about 1.35 times as loud as Yngwie's, who plays a fender with a 9.5 radius neck.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Aug 1 2007, 03:07 PM
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Pavel
post Aug 1 2007, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Otto @ Aug 1 2007, 03:49 PM) *
120W tube amp ???

Pavel you going on a tour soon?
That thing seem to blast anything down blink.gif

Our dear friend Yngwie uses 50w tube amps but a bunch of them and they sound alot smile.gif


No i am not going on tour. But i don't have a decent tube amp and i am buying one anyway. If you are joining a serious band you must have an equipment for rehearsals and playing live, i am not joining a band yet but i still want to have a good equipment. When i was recording a demo with my ex-band in a studio i didn't have an amp to record with, i had to borrow one and in the end i had a crappy sound on the damn record we payed for.

Honestly - i didn't know Yngwie was using a 50W amps! But also - what's the point of having 100x50Watt amps on stage instead of 1x120Watts??

Whatever tube head is there - Mesa, Peavy, Carvin, Randall, Engl, Hughes, Marshall - most of them are 100 to 120 Watts so this is nothing extraordinary.

The Uncreator: if you get it some time soon - make a review on it and also post some sound clips! smile.gif


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The Uncreator
post Aug 1 2007, 03:17 PM
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Im going up to sam ash in a few days, if they got it there im definetly fonna play it smile.gif
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Pavel
post Aug 1 2007, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 1 2007, 03:57 PM) *
To double the loudness of an amp, you have to put out 8 times the wattage. I believe that is the formula.

That 120W amp might only be 20% louder than a 50 watt amp. 50 watts is enough for most people, more than enough. unless you have a lot of speakers, i believe in that case, you need the wattage to drive them. not an expert on this stuff, but i think that is correct.

edit: let me check that. you are 2.4 x the wattage. so the increase in volume would be the cube root of 2.4.

ok, start with 1.2. 1.2^3 = 1.44x.1.2 = i can see that is too small. Try a bigger number

1.3^3 = 1.69x1.3 = 2.2 approximately. ok

1.35^3 = 1.35+.405+.0675= 1.76 approx. x 1.35 = 2.4 approximately.

SO................................................

120 Watt Ibanez amp is about 1.35 times as loud as Yngwie's, who plays a fender with a 9.5 radius neck.


Is the loudness that important?? smile.gif

I think it's the sound everybody is worried about! And live playing - especially if you have money for only 1 amp? I think 120Watts don't make anything wrong! smile.gif


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Otto
post Aug 1 2007, 03:31 PM
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A tube amp works when its loud.... it cant be compared to digital stuff when played at low volume, thats why I got "scared about 120W" I want a tubeamp, but have to move to a own house before that can happend! wink.gif
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 1 2007, 03:47 PM
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120W is fine - only thing you might want is a powersoak/attenuator for home use so that you can still push it up into full saturated od at a comfortable volume in your office/bedroom. Without the powersoak use ear defenders and let your neighbours hear the full glory of your guitar Pavel biggrin.gif . (I once had a complaint from a neighbour who lived 12 houses down the block.)

Cheers,
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ps The Uncreator - can you post feedback on the amp if you get chance to try one please smile.gif .


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fkalich
post Aug 1 2007, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 1 2007, 09:26 AM) *
Is the loudness that important?? smile.gif

I think it's the sound everybody is worried about! And live playing - especially if you have money for only 1 amp? I think 120Watts don't make anything wrong! smile.gif


got ya. I just play for myself, and that is all I ever intend. But if I were someone who wanted to play professionally, I would probably get a 100+ watt amp.

except, and I probably should just post this in a different thread.

My hearing is fine. But i have some tinnitus in my left ear. Genkgo works pretty well for me, most of the time it is quiet, or low enough that I don't pay any attention, so long as I take the Genkgo. It is cheap, and supposed to make you smarter, so that is fine, i take it three times a day. But i know what I am talking about. I am glad I don't have it all the time, but those with hearing loss associated have it all the time, they never know what quiet is. Generally people that have this also have bad ears. Mine may be caused by a growth, but it is not dangerous, so not worried about it.

Today young people have very bad hearing, at an early age, very common. Hearing as bad at 30 as people used to have in their 50s. And associated tinnitus often. Mostly the earphones are doing this, the music. Doctors can do little, other than hearing aids. Ear surgery is really brain surgery for all practical purposes. It may be a long long time before they can deal with this in the way they deal with other internal organs.

Hearing loss occurs when you experience decibels exceeding a certain level for a certain period. The higher the decibels, the less time you can listen without having hearing damage, irreversible. It does not occur instantaneous. 2 hours at high decibel heavy metal is just about a recipe for most in the audience wishing to heck 10 or 20 years later that they had not been so stupid. A person should research this, and make an intelligent decision, really. Mostly you cannot listen to a certain level more than a certain duration. Or you get damaged hearing. There is no way out of that, and you can find charts that will give you a good estimate of when the damage will occur.

I am not saying you can't play loud for some songs. But this loud non stop IS DESTROYING the ears of the bands and the audience, don't kid yourself.
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Pavel
post Aug 1 2007, 04:04 PM
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I know that about the hearing! That's why i hate live concerts because the sound actually disappears and all you get is a bunch of high decibel noise which is tearing your head apart!

Fortunately i almost don't use those CD player headphones. If i listen to music than it's speakers! smile.gif


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MickeM
post Aug 1 2007, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 1 2007, 04:26 PM) *
Is the loudness that important?? smile.gif

I think it's the sound everybody is worried about! And live playing - especially if you have money for only 1 amp? I think 120Watts don't make anything wrong! smile.gif

First thing, 120W is crazy loud and for that matter useless. For myself I'm aiming at max 50W. I have a 100W head but never use its full power. When rehearsing the master volume is between 0.1-3 which is a shame since better tube sound would be produced cranked.

You should concider this, if you're buying a tube amp for the tube sound 120W is wrong. You will not be able to get the best out of it.
This is not exact measures but screaming as loud as you can is about 5W.

Divide the power by 10 and you get half the loudness. Meaning a 12W amp would be half as loud as a 120W.

If you're in an apartment, try screaming aloud for an hour and see how the neighbours react laugh.gif That's 5W.

You can't really bring a 120W amp to a studio, you'd have to play so low the tubes will not act their best.
Bring a 1W and have them mike it up.
For a small pub, bring a 20-30W amp.
For a large concert you could bring a 1W and have it miked up (how should the people in the back row hear a 120W on stage?) You'd have to spread the sound in all directions anyway for everyone to hear.

I'm only speaking from own experience. I've never played such a big arena but I've experienced that I couldn't make full use of a 50W in a fairly large room (for like 150 ppl). 30W is great, only problem is to spread the sound if you don't play through a PA.
On a bigger stage with PA your amp will be loud enough for you to hear, then miked through the PA.
With a 10-20W on stage for your hearing the tubes will be glowing and really doing their work.
With 120W you'd be playing with the volume on 2-3.

This is what I have experienced so belive me when I say bigger is not always automatically better. For me 30W is perfect. I can crank it (not at home but in the rehearsal room) and FEEL the air vibrate and get a great tube sound. Move to 50W, maybe. Most bands play way too loud when rehearsing, I always use special ear plus to filter out damaging frequencies but oh boy, more than 50W will just nuke them earplugs. It's impossible.

Just my 2c, if you want THAT amp there's no other choise. If you want that amp because it's 120W, think once more. If you want that amp because it's 120W and a good price, you'd probably have more cheaper choices if you can move down to 20-50W.

And as I said. It's only my experiences, ok. Others may think 100W is great for an audition and that 20W is sissy stuff or that 100W works great in a studio and that 20W doesn't.
And I had to bring it up since I don't want you to get an amp that you'll find out later isn't useful for what you intended. It's not to diss "your" amp cos I think it looks pretty cool too. smile.gif


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Otto
post Aug 1 2007, 04:20 PM
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VERY loud is bad for the ears yes, but loud music aint bad, A good tubeamp has to be played loud! that said lets listen ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNwN3rSrvaE
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Andrew Cockburn
post Aug 1 2007, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Aug 1 2007, 02:18 AM) *
Andrew!


Huh?

Oh, where is RL then? I'm in California today ...


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Pavel
post Aug 1 2007, 04:33 PM
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MikeM - thanks for the post!

I don't want that amp because it's 120W but because i like it's sound - at least what i heard from sound samples (note that in Croatia there is no chance for me to try it in music store, just like no other amp), i like it's price, design...

I don't know! When i have money for the amp i'll try to go to Italy to try something out! smile.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 1 2007, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 1 2007, 05:25 PM) *
Huh?

Oh, where is RL then? I'm in California today ...


Well I suppose the States and California can seem a long way from R(eal) L(ife) tongue.gif . But if you have time pop down to a guitar shop and give us the low down on the Theramon please Andrew. For all of us who are miles from a decent guitar shop please smile.gif .

Cheers,
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Pavel
post Aug 1 2007, 04:43 PM
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It's Thermion! smile.gif smile.gif And yes Andrew - do us a favor - try that amp! biggrin.gif


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fkalich
post Aug 1 2007, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 1 2007, 10:04 AM) *
I know that about the hearing! That's why i hate live concerts because the sound actually disappears and all you get is a bunch of high decibel noise which is tearing your head apart!

Fortunately i almost don't use those CD player headphones. If i listen to music than it's speakers! smile.gif


I figured you had thought about it. Your a smart guy. Its a matter of so much decibels in x period of time. So you are doing the right thing, not exposing yourself to extended non stop head banging. That is the real danger, just more in a night than the ears can handle, and you wake up with damaged ears, irreversible. Maybe you go into denial for awhile, or it does not show up for a decade, but the damage is done. If bands would break it up some, some soft music, it would be ok. Nothing wrong with an Acoustic guitar, G&R did that. Probably pretty hard for a musician not to have a bit of damage over time, at least i bit more than typical. But you don't want it to be so excessive that it will cause you serious distress, or even depression. Moderation makes sense here.
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post Aug 1 2007, 04:47 PM
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Well If you have some sort of multi effects pedal you can always turn down the volume on the pedal and then turn up the volume on the amp to get a good "tubed sound".

Wow I never even thought of that, Im gonna try it smile.gif

This post has been edited by Rob_g: Aug 1 2007, 04:47 PM
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MickeM
post Aug 1 2007, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 1 2007, 05:33 PM) *
MikeM - thanks for the post!

I don't want that amp because it's 120W but because i like it's sound - at least what i heard from sound samples (note that in Croatia there is no chance for me to try it in music store, just like no other amp), i like it's price, design...

I don't know! When i have money for the amp i'll try to go to Italy to try something out! smile.gif

Yes, it had great sound, I liked it too. Question is what the setting were when they recorded it. Full throttle or low volumes.

What we should (ask Andrew to) find out is if it also sound that good on low volumes.

F ex my Switchblade sounds good on low volume, so does my Peavey, both sound better and better the more I raise the volume. The Switchblade hasn't been above 9-10 o'clock yet though since it's too loud.
I had an old Marshall that was hopeless, sounded really bad a low volumes but sprung to life when the volume was closer to maxed, man, then it sounded so swell. But it was so loud it wasn't possible to play like that for longer times and certainly not when the rest of the band was around.

The solution is a power sponge - Marshall, Hot plate or whatever brands there are, I never used one so I don't know but I've heard they are real useful.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 1 2007, 04:57 PM
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And staying with this - anyone who has a big over 30W tube amp should really seriously consider getting some form of attenuator. Heck I use one with a 15W amp! Anyone one who is worried that small amps ain't loud enough at 15 or 30 watts - an extension speaker does the trick to spread the sound.

Without an attenuator I would seriously look in to getting some form of ear defender. I used to many years ago work for a PA hire company and we routinely used them. Non-use was a sackable offense. It's one reason why I think my hearing is ok now adays - my best friend went on to another company who didn't and he now has mild tinnitus...

Cheers,
Tony

ps Might be wrong but I believe that 'in ear' type headphones that you find on personal stereos in Europe are meant to be designed to avoid excessive volumes and sound pressure levels (SPL). I know mine are.


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MickeM
post Aug 1 2007, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Rob_g @ Aug 1 2007, 05:47 PM) *
Well If you have some sort of multi effects pedal you can always turn down the volume on the pedal and then turn up the volume on the amp to get a good "tubed sound".


...or not biggrin.gif

But anyway, report your testresult to us.


QUOTE (tonymiro @ Aug 1 2007, 05:57 PM) *
And staying with this - anyone who has a big over 30W tube amp should really seriously consider getting some form of attenuator. Heck I use one with a 15W amp! Anyone one who is worried that small amps ain't loud enough at 15 or 30 watts - an extension speaker does the trick to spread the sound.

Which attenuator do you use. Do you I recall correct, a pink Hot plate on top of your Matchless?

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Aug 1 2007, 05:57 PM) *
Without an attenuator I would seriously look in to getting some form of ear defender. I used to many years ago work for a PA hire company and we routinely used them. Non-use was a sackable offense. It's one reason why I think my hearing is ok now adays - my best friend went on to another company who didn't and he now has mild tinnitus...

Cheers,
Tony

ps Might be wrong but I believe that 'in ear' type headphones that you find on personal stereos in Europe are meant to be designed to avoid excessive volumes and sound pressure levels (SPL). I know mine are.

I have a tiny frequency range loss on my left ear. The side I've always had facing the drummer(s) and their cymbals and crashes.
In the beginning I used these yellow plugs but 10 years ago I started with these "christmas trees" that's supposed to filter well. It's layers so I suppose SPL will be taken care of in each "branch" of the tree.

Ear plugs


EDIT: Ooops, Sorry Pavel. I went off topic. We'll bring it back on Thermion.

This post has been edited by MickeM: Aug 1 2007, 05:07 PM


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 1 2007, 05:24 PM
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Spot on, pink one is a THD hotplate (8 ohm speaker one - THD make different ones to match the speaker load) MickeM.

Cheers,
Tony


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