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> Galactic Mitosis?
Todd Simpson
post Sep 25 2016, 11:34 PM
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Anyone know anything about Biology? There is a process of cell division called "mitosis". It's how all life forms. I recently ran across a pic of the outer Oort cloud .
(What's the Oort Cloud? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oort_cloud)

Attached Image

and it looks just like two cells in Mitosis. (What's Cellular Mitosis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitosis

Attached Image

Astounding to see such a HUGE thing looking so similar to such a very small thing and how both are critical parts of life. The universe is a fascinating place smile.gif If we could all realize that we are all connected on a physical, subatomic level, that separation is an illusion and that we are all on this big rock in space together. I think we could have a much better future. The call to "division", "separation", and "Isolation" are against the natural order of the Universe IMHO and we will be punished if we take the path that grand universe itself doesn't take. We just need to look around and learn. The lessons are all around us smile.gif



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fkalich
post Sep 26 2016, 12:17 AM
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The Voyager spacecraft won't reach the Orb Cloud for many thousand years. As the positions of those two is as far as we have gotten out into space, who took the picture?

I would call that a theoretical depiction, not a picture.

On the subject of cell splitting, amino acids do form spontaneously, and they do in some circumstances form a spherical shell. And those shells have been shown to divide in two. This is demonstrable in a laboratory. Thus we can see how the antecedent of cells formed, creating closed environments where the random chemical changes could occur, and step by step would evolve into what we see 4.56 billion years latter. Well maybe a hundred million years less that that, things probably had to cool off a bit before it all got started.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Sep 26 2016, 12:37 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Sep 26 2016, 05:47 AM
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It's just a theoretical idea of what the Oort cloud could look like. The thrust of my argument was pointing out the similarities between the oort cloud and mitosis. It seems fascinating that two things of such massively different scales can have so much in common in terms of overall structure. I was curious what folks thought of that smile.gif I appreciate your defining cell splitting for us, and pointing out that the pic of the oort cloud was a geuss, but you didn't manage to get very close to what you thought about the similarity? that's what I was curious about smile.gif About what you guys thought? So I guess the question still stands.

Dig deep and tell me what you think? Random coincidence? Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny? Any thoughts at all?

Todd

QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 25 2016, 07:17 PM) *
The Voyager spacecraft won't reach the Orb Cloud for many thousand years. As the positions of those two is as far as we have gotten out into space, who took the picture?

I would call that a theoretical depiction, not a picture.

On the subject of cell splitting, amino acids do form spontaneously, and they do in some circumstances form a spherical shell. And those shells have been shown to divide in two. This is demonstrable in a laboratory. Thus we can see how the antecedent of cells formed, creating closed environments where the random chemical changes could occur, and step by step would evolve into what we see 4.56 billion years latter. Well maybe a hundred million years less that that, things probably had to cool off a bit before it all got started.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 26 2016, 05:48 AM


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Rammikin
post Sep 26 2016, 06:05 AM
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I love synchronicities like that. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to think of a possible connection. At the very least it makes you reflect on how everything in the cosmos is linked.


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 27 2016, 05:19 AM
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That was what I was thinking smile.gif Basically, some of the smallest things replicated on a massive scale. Makes me wonder if the Oort cloud is trying to split in two for some reason smile.gif I sure hope not.
But yeah, really does give one pause to think how tightly connected everything from cells to the cosmos is really connected smile.gif

Todd

smile.gif
QUOTE (Rammikin @ Sep 26 2016, 01:05 AM) *
I love synchronicities like that. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to think of a possible connection. At the very least it makes you reflect on how everything in the cosmos is linked.


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fkalich
post Sep 27 2016, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 25 2016, 11:47 PM) *
It's just a theoretical idea of what the Oort cloud could look like. The thrust of my argument was pointing out the similarities between the oort cloud and mitosis. It seems fascinating that two things of such massively different scales can have so much in common in terms of overall structure. I was curious what folks thought of that smile.gif I appreciate your defining cell splitting for us, and pointing out that the pic of the oort cloud was a geuss, but you didn't manage to get very close to what you thought about the similarity? that's what I was curious about smile.gif About what you guys thought? So I guess the question still stands.

Dig deep and tell me what you think? Random coincidence? Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny? Any thoughts at all?

Todd


I assumed you were aware that no space craft had reached that far, but thought some others reading this might have not been aware of the distance involved. Yes, probably random, one is due to gravitation, the other is well, just how a cell has to divide. If it divided from the center rather than the outside, when the division reached the membrane the cell interior would be exposed outside of the protective membrane and the cell destroyed. No connection.

That being said, people on this forum used to talk science years ago, it was kind of neat. But that stopped for some reason. I consider posts like this great stuff.
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klasaine
post Sep 27 2016, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 27 2016, 12:40 AM) *
That being said, people on this forum used to talk science years ago, it was kind of neat. But that stopped for some reason. I consider posts like this great stuff.


We've stopped talking about science in the states in general. It's hard and confusing and doesn't fit with my preconceived world
view. It's the 21st century and we like magic better.
Don't even fucking start me.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Sep 27 2016, 01:49 PM


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bleez
post Sep 27 2016, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 27 2016, 01:48 PM) *
It's the 21st century and we like magic better.
Don't even fucking start me.

laugh.gif laugh.gif
I feel your pain sir smile.gif


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AK Rich
post Sep 27 2016, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 27 2016, 04:48 AM) *
We've stopped talking about science in the states in general. It's hard and confusing and doesn't fit with my preconceived world
view. It's the 21st century and we like magic better.
Don't even fucking start me.

laugh.gif Don't hold back, Ken. Hey! How was that cruise? Magical I hope. wink.gif
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klasaine
post Sep 27 2016, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Sep 27 2016, 07:56 AM) *
laugh.gif Don't hold back, Ken. Hey! How was that cruise? Magical I hope. wink.gif


The cruise was great! I have been to AK before but stayed closer to Anchorage. I was staying in Eagle River.
We did all the cruise 'tourist' stuff. Sled dog exhibition, Lumberjack show, panning for gold, whale watching, eating a ton of smoked salmon, etc. Perfect for a 7 year old boy.

Alaska is without a doubt one of the most beautiful places in the world. Words and even pictures don't do it justice.


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 27 2016, 07:57 PM
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Well, almost no connection smile.gif The visual similarity is quite striking imho which is what lead me to the original post. Even if the oort cloud pic is just a rendition smile.gif It made me think of the "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" idea and how prevalent it seems at all levels. Of course, our brains try to make things fit together so I"m sure there is quite a bit of that as well smile.gif

QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 27 2016, 03:40 AM) *
I assumed you were aware that no space craft had reached that far, but thought some others reading this might have not been aware of the distance involved. Yes, probably random, one is due to gravitation, the other is well, just how a cell has to divide. If it divided from the center rather than the outside, when the division reached the membrane the cell interior would be exposed outside of the protective membrane and the cell destroyed. No connection.

That being said, people on this forum used to talk science years ago, it was kind of neat. But that stopped for some reason. I consider posts like this great stuff.



With the state of decline (per the numbers) in our education system relative to other first world countries, I"m not surprised as much as saddened by the lack of talk in general about Science in our culture/media/etc. The resistance to any type of "Standards" in our educational system has left us behind much of the civilized world where Academic Standards have existed for decades. As was once said, "There can be no standard without reference". Alas, without any standard, we have nothing to make reference off internal to our own system. Here is a recent study (2014) and America doesn't break the top 10 for education.

1.)South Korea
2.)Japan
3.)Singapore
4.)Hong Kong
5.)Finland
6.)UK
7.)Canada
8.)Netherlands
9.)Ireland
10.)Poland

we rank @13 just behind RUSSIA, yes Russia. Many of the top 10 have one thing in common. Academic Standards. E.G. you could take a student from anywhere in the country, and put them anywhere else in the country and they could slot in to the educational system and be taught roughly the same things as they were at their last school.

This is where everything falls apart as this QUICKLY devolves in to a "Endless STATES RIGHTS debate" which I'd really rather not have as it's an endless loop. However, I'm trying very hard to avoid poilitics of any kind and just mentioning long term study done by a educational publishing company without an eye to bias/political concerns/etc. Here is the original link.

http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking




QUOTE (bleez @ Sep 27 2016, 08:59 AM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif
I feel your pain sir smile.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 27 2016, 07:59 PM


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AK Rich
post Sep 28 2016, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 27 2016, 07:57 AM) *
The cruise was great! I have been to AK before but stayed closer to Anchorage. I was staying in Eagle River.
We did all the cruise 'tourist' stuff. Sled dog exhibition, Lumberjack show, panning for gold, whale watching, eating a ton of smoked salmon, etc. Perfect for a 7 year old boy.

Alaska is without a doubt one of the most beautiful places in the world. Words and even pictures don't do it justice.


That's awesome, Ken. Glad to hear it! We have a saying here in AK that says once you have been here, you will almost certainly return again someday. It looks like that one already holds true for you and I would wager that it will be true again for that 7 year old.
It was a really good summer up here this year so I suspect the weather was good while you guys were here which is a bit of a bonus for the tourist's that visit.
So, Next time you are up this way, if it is possible, we should try to have a little get together somewhere and toss a few back maybe and talk politics. NOT! laugh.gif
Seriously though, you could bring yourself and yours out to my place in Big Lake and enjoy a day on, and in the water if it suits you. Or maybe do some salmon fishing in the area.
Consider this an open invitation and an opportunity for me to show some Alaskan hospitality. smile.gif

PS: That invitation goes for any of the folks here at GMC who may make it here someday, so let me know if you are coming and I will do my best to share anything I have, or know that may help to make your visit more memorable.
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fzalfa
post Sep 28 2016, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE
America doesn't break the top 10 for education.

not better in france....... our beloved educational minister sukx more than she look !!

Cheers

Laurent


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klasaine
post Sep 28 2016, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Sep 28 2016, 08:54 AM) *
So, Next time you are up this way, if it is possible, we should try to have a little get together somewhere and toss a few back maybe and talk politics. NOT! laugh.gif
Seriously though, you could bring yourself and yours out to my place in Big Lake and enjoy a day on, and in the water if it suits you. Or maybe do some salmon fishing in the area.
Consider this an open invitation and an opportunity for me to show some Alaskan hospitality. smile.gif

PS: That invitation goes for any of the folks here at GMC who may make it here someday, so let me know if you are coming and I will do my best to share anything I have, or know that may help to make your visit more memorable.


I will return, absolutely!
And if it's in the Anchorage area I'll let you know.

As for talking politics, I'm a lot more 'broad spectrum' than I may seem in print ... especially over a beer.
Case in point: Alaska is important and unique in that it doesn't fit neatly into a political/environmental bag. For folks who pay attention, one's perspective can definitely alter and evolve when you visit that state. And usually not in the expected direction. at least for me it did.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Sep 28 2016, 05:24 PM


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AK Rich
post Sep 28 2016, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Sep 28 2016, 08:14 AM) *
I will return, absolutely!
And if it's in the Anchorage area I'll let you know.

As for talking politics, I'm a lot more 'broad spectrum' than I may seem in print ... especially over a beer.
Case in point: Alaska is important and unique in that it doesn't fit neatly into a political/environmental bag.

I can see that, in fact I think that our views may be very similar on many topics. But vacations are all about getting away from that kind of thing and more about just enjoying ones self and the company of others we meet along the way.
As for your "Case in point." I would have to agree. Being separated from the rest of the country probably has a lot to do with that. But just like everywhere else I guess, we have our share of squirrely politicians.
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Ben Higgins
post Sep 29 2016, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 26 2016, 04:47 AM) *
Dig deep and tell me what you think? Random coincidence? Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny? Any thoughts at all?

Todd


Todd, you know the answer comes from Father Zeus. That is all.


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bleez
post Oct 1 2016, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Sep 29 2016, 01:59 PM) *
Todd, you know the answer comes from Father Zeus. That is all.

I think, my good sir, you mean 'Odin' cool.gif


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fkalich
post Oct 1 2016, 11:28 PM
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You see numbers all over the place on various links. Wikipedia is really not bad as a source as it is reviewed by readers and corrected. And here you see Russia ranked 1st, not 13th as in that source that you provided. The US is right there with most Western European countries here.

wikipedia source

The metric used,"Tertiary Education", includes things other than bachelors degree, really any post high school level training or education. Iit includes not just colleges, but technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers.

A bachelors degree does more than just train you for a technical still, it also requires a broader education to make you a more well rounded person, particularly in Liberal Arts and Science, which I am sure is by far the largest school in most Universities. I may be old fashioned, but I have always felt that having a well rounded exposure to various fields and disciplines has high social value for a population, and this is something that is missed in technical training limited to a particular career path.

Here are two sources of rankings for bachelor's degrees, and you see that only Canada is significantly higher than the US. Russia does not even appear in these lists, implying that tertiary education in that country is heavily weighted towards technical training schools, not so much University degrees.

bachelor's degree rankings

Time Magazine

The lower value for the US compared with Canada is of course explained by the low college graduation rates among the Black and Hispanic demographic groups. So in dealing with the problem, that is where the focus needs to be, what is causing the lower interest in higher education among those two demographic groups, and what can be done to improve on that.

college degrees by racial categories

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 27 2016, 01:57 PM) *
Well, almost no connection smile.gif The visual similarity is quite striking imho which is what lead me to the original post. Even if the oort cloud pic is just a rendition smile.gif It made me think of the "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" idea and how prevalent it seems at all levels. Of course, our brains try to make things fit together so I"m sure there is quite a bit of that as well smile.gif




With the state of decline (per the numbers) in our education system relative to other first world countries, I"m not surprised as much as saddened by the lack of talk in general about Science in our culture/media/etc. The resistance to any type of "Standards" in our educational system has left us behind much of the civilized world where Academic Standards have existed for decades. As was once said, "There can be no standard without reference". Alas, without any standard, we have nothing to make reference off internal to our own system. Here is a recent study (2014) and America doesn't break the top 10 for education.

1.)South Korea
2.)Japan
3.)Singapore
4.)Hong Kong
5.)Finland
6.)UK
7.)Canada
8.)Netherlands
9.)Ireland
10.)Poland

we rank @13 just behind RUSSIA, yes Russia. Many of the top 10 have one thing in common. Academic Standards. E.G. you could take a student from anywhere in the country, and put them anywhere else in the country and they could slot in to the educational system and be taught roughly the same things as they were at their last school.

This is where everything falls apart as this QUICKLY devolves in to a "Endless STATES RIGHTS debate" which I'd really rather not have as it's an endless loop. However, I'm trying very hard to avoid poilitics of any kind and just mentioning long term study done by a educational publishing company without an eye to bias/political concerns/etc. Here is the original link.

http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking


This post has been edited by fkalich: Oct 1 2016, 11:30 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 2 2016, 02:20 AM
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The organization that made the study you mentioned (on wikipedia) is one I've never heard of and I worked in higher education for 8 years .The one I picked was a combination of data sets that show a broad swath of the overall educational effectiveness of each countries educational system, as a whole, (not just collegiate performance which is only about a third of the population) in terms of results on graduation/test scores/etc. That's why I chose it. In truth, America does lag far behind the rest of the FIRST WORLD countries in education. I'll spare you the horde of peer reviewed journal articles that corroborate this. But I will put them up against wikipedia any day smile.gif If you can find some peer reviewed educational journals (not online only journals but actual peer reviewed journals that are kept in university libraries, after all we have to have some sort of standards don't we?) that say American is far higher up the list on education, I would LOVE to see it smile.gif I'd welcome it. I'd like to think that we are doing much better than we are. My research indicates that we are NOT doing much better. But I am always open to new information smile.gif And I'd love to think our educational system is far better than the statistics seem to indicate.





QUOTE (fkalich @ Oct 1 2016, 06:28 PM) *
You see numbers all over the place on various links. Wikipedia is really not bad as a source as it is reviewed by readers and corrected. And here you see Russia ranked 1st, not 13th as in that source that you provided. The US is right there with most Western European countries here.
..
college degrees by racial categories


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 2 2016, 02:26 AM


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Ben Higgins
post Oct 2 2016, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 1 2016, 06:01 PM) *
I think, my good sir, you mean 'Odin' cool.gif


It depends what day you get me on wink.gif


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