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fkalich
post Oct 3 2016, 12:37 AM
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I see that we are talking about different things. The OECD is not a lightweight institution, they were instituted long ago, to help administer the Marshall plan. Their budget in 2015 was EUR 363 million. And I do think that the proportion of a population with tertiary education is more relevant to the discussion of the scientific literacy of a population than aptitude testing of 4th and 8th graders in tests. And there is a lot more involved in education than what is reflected in such tests.

However, staying with your measure of average academic performance in aptitude testing of grade school children, this article from the Brookings Institution speaks of recent US performance there quite positively.

There is nothing wrong with Wikipedia. It is not a primary source, however it is very useful in it's own way.

Brookings on TIMSS and PIRLS

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 1 2016, 08:20 PM) *
The organization that made the study you mentioned (on wikipedia) is one I've never heard of and I worked in higher education for 8 years .The one I picked was a combination of data sets that show a broad swath of the overall educational effectiveness of each countries educational system, as a whole, (not just collegiate performance which is only about a third of the population) in terms of results on graduation/test scores/etc. That's why I chose it. In truth, America does lag far behind the rest of the FIRST WORLD countries in education. I'll spare you the horde of peer reviewed journal articles that corroborate this. But I will put them up against wikipedia any day smile.gif If you can find some peer reviewed educational journals (not online only journals but actual peer reviewed journals that are kept in university libraries, after all we have to have some sort of standards don't we?) that say American is far higher up the list on education, I would LOVE to see it smile.gif I'd welcome it. I'd like to think that we are doing much better than we are. My research indicates that we are NOT doing much better. But I am always open to new information smile.gif And I'd love to think our educational system is far better than the statistics seem to indicate.


This post has been edited by fkalich: Oct 3 2016, 12:57 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 3 2016, 02:48 AM
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Agreed smile.gif Wikipedia is not a primary source but also agreed it's handy for quick and dirty info smile.gif Always comes up first in searches and usually gives some clues as to what the next search should be. I use it as well smile.gif

The Brookings institute is certainly a valid primary source imho. I also didn't know the institution you mentioned was created as part of the Marshall plan! Learn something new every day smile.gif

From the Brookings study you referenced.

"That said, five of the six A+ countries continue to lead the world in eighth-grade math achievement, and they continue to score significantly higher than the U.S. "

The numbers can be shifted around quite a bit given the study, but my basic point is still that the United states lags behind many first world countries in very important areas such as Math and Science just as an example. It's my belief that the lack of academic standards, nationwide is to blame for this. So far I havn't read any study the supports another position. But who knows, there are new studies all the time. I think our "states rights" attitude on many things just gets in our own way sometimes. Particularly in education. Based on all of my research from Bachelors to Masters degree, speaking with Ph.Ds for 8 years in a University, and researching on my own, that is simply my conclusion. Of course you are welcome to your own conclusion, whatever that may be. I really wish we, as a country would embrace some sort of academic standards so we could lead the list of nations in academics, not lag behind the top 5. sad.gif

However, there is a MASSIVE amount of resistance to the very idea of academic standards as it's seen as an "encroachment" on "States Rights". Folks seem to forget that Federal Law over rides state law due to the "Supremacy Clause in our Constitution. This is the entire purpose for having a federal system, a final authority. But that's exactly what many folks hate. The federal system.

"Due to the Supremacy Clause in the United States Constitution, federal law overrides state law in most cases. The Supremacy Clause is closely related to the idea of preemption"

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftri.../preemption.htm

At least that's how I see it smile.gif No standards, No Progress in education. Ever. sad.gif
QUOTE (fkalich @ Oct 2 2016, 07:37 PM) *
I see that we are talking about different things. The OECD is not a lightweight institution, they were instituted long ago, to help administer the Marshall plan. Their budget in 2015 was EUR 363 million. And I do think that the proportion of a population with tertiary education is more relevant to the discussion of the scientific literacy of a population than aptitude testing of 4th and 8th graders in tests. And there is a lot more involved in education than what is reflected in such tests.

However, staying with your measure of average academic performance in aptitude testing of grade school children, this article from the Brookings Institution speaks of recent US performance there quite positively.

There is nothing wrong with Wikipedia. It is not a primary source, however it is very useful in it's own way.

Brookings on TIMSS and PIRLS


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AK Rich
post Oct 3 2016, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 2 2016, 05:48 PM) *
However, there is a MASSIVE amount of resistance to the very idea of academic standards as it's seen as an "encroachment" on "States Rights". Folks seem to forget that Federal Law over rides state law due to the "Supremacy Clause in our Constitution. This is the entire purpose for having a federal system, a final authority. But that's exactly what many folks hate. The federal system.

"Due to the Supremacy Clause in the United States Constitution, federal law overrides state law in most cases. The Supremacy Clause is closely related to the idea of preemption"

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftri.../preemption.htm

At least that's how I see it smile.gif No standards, No Progress in education. Ever. sad.gif


That is highly debatable. Read the 10th Amendment and Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html
http://constitution.laws.com/10th-amendment

"If Congress exceeded its authority, the congressional act is invalid and, despite the Supremacy Clause, has no priority over state action."
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary....upremacy+Clause

The Federal involvement in education is the problem , not the solution IMO.

Sorry to butt in. I'll leave you guys to it.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Oct 3 2016, 04:06 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 4 2016, 05:24 AM
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I must say this is a a very spiff contrarian view with valid legal framework behind it. I"m actually stoked that we can discuss this issue like this.

We will have to agree to disagree on federal involvement in education, as I'm a "Standards" guy, in terms of primary education. But again, just my personal view. but that's perfectly fine smile.gif

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Oct 3 2016, 11:04 AM) *
That is highly debatable. Read the 10th Amendment and Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html
http://constitution.laws.com/10th-amendment

"If Congress exceeded its authority, the congressional act is invalid and, despite the Supremacy Clause, has no priority over state action."
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary....upremacy+Clause

The Federal involvement in education is the problem , not the solution IMO.

Sorry to butt in. I'll leave you guys to it.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 4 2016, 05:25 AM


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klasaine
post Oct 4 2016, 06:10 AM
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Education in the USA started to go into the shitter when lay people's opinions (students, parents, clergy, politicians) about the direction of education and pedagogy began to be taken seriously by school administrators.

Education is not the retail business. You don't ask the customers - the students - what they want or need. They don't know yet. That's why they're in school.

*Having said that, I do believe that the US benefits from the generally more well rounded education that we (still in many places) offer at all levels of schooling. We tend to be able to 'think outside the box' more often to deal with and solve some really difficult problems and invent great new stuff. In a word - innovate. The fact that that skill is actually nurtured here in the States is highly regarded.

Where we fail is our inability to provide educational equality ... which brings our numbers down (due to our huge population).

I'm not necessarily against 'standards' (fed or state) but I can tell you as a parent, the son of two school teachers and the husband of a college professor - that the "Common Core" is bullshit. At least in so far as it's being implemented currently. Kids aren't learning shit and most importantly, they're not learning how to learn or how to think critically. Which in my opinion is the skill that makes one an intelligent person.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 4 2016, 08:35 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 4 2016, 08:37 PM
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I"m with ya wink.gif I think we should adopt a system that is actually working from somewhere else in the world. Every country is unique of course, but I do think we could a bit on how to learn Mat for example from India. Without benefit of computers in the classroom, students from India regularly tromp countries with much higher GDP in Math and Science for example.

I'm for taking what works, and setting some standards so that every kid gets a similar education. Also I'm against using local property taxes for schools. This creates the inequality that results is such widely varied score results here in the U.S. Again, (PERSON OPINE HERE) I think this is where the value of a federalist system comes in. Poor areas get crap schools. Rich areas get better ones. So poor areas pump out mostly crap students. The cycle of poverty and violence continues. I'm a sucker for the idea of equality in our country. But I'm only one of a very few. Most folks just kind a think "forget the poor". If they don't think it, they certainly don't vote to change it. That's the bit that irks me. Again, just me smile.gif

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 4 2016, 01:10 AM) *
Education in the USA started to go into the shitter when lay people's opinions (students, parents, clergy, politicians) about the direction of education and pedagogy began to be taken seriously by school administrators.

Education is not the retail business. You don't ask the customers - the students - what they want or need. They don't know yet. That's why they're in school.

*Having said that, I do believe that the US benefits from the generally more well rounded education that we offer at all levels of schooling. We tend to be able to 'think outside the box' more often to deal with and solve some really difficult problems and invent great new stuff. In a word - innovate. The fact that that skill is actually nurtured here in the States is highly regarded.

Where we fail is our inability to provide educational equality ... which brings our numbers down (due to our huge population).

I'm not necessarily against 'standards' (fed or state) but I can tell you as a parent, the son of two school teachers and the husband of a college professor - that the "Common Core" is bullshit. At least in so far as it's being implemented currently. Kids aren't learning shit and most importantly, they're not learning how to learn or how to think critically. Which in my opinion is the skill that makes one an intelligent person.


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