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KenA
post Oct 17 2016, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 17 2016, 04:22 AM) *
The recent Wiki-leaks 'open borders' ...
*And explain to me again, what do sun spots and solar flares have to do with this year's US presidential election - ?


Hi klasaine, thanks for the tips in regards to open borders, i'll read that for sure ...

I'm going 'conspiracy theories' mode on that doc of 'solar flares...', hehe, if we have that kind of atmosphere, I believe one can make the EMP device to work, but don't take me serious on these things. :-)

QUOTE (Rammikin @ Oct 17 2016, 05:38 AM) *
The US government congressional branch is controlled by the Republican party, which is working actively get to their candidate, Donald Trump, elected president. The head of the FBI is a member of the Republican party. The largest cable news media network in the US is actively promoting Trump for president. However, I think it's safe to say "etc" is worried about a Trump presidency.


When you say 'The largest cable news media...' I believe you're referring to FOX?

QUOTE (fkalich @ Oct 17 2016, 06:09 AM) *
Well the real world is different than Internet world...


That's a good point, nowadays i'm more 'Internet world' than what you call 'real world', that I believe you're talking about TV, newspapers, etc ... so I tend to follow more what people call 'Alternative Media: infowars, AMTV, wikileaks, etc', but it does not necessarily means A is true and B is false.

Back to H and T, well I think they are both unfit to be POTUS


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AK Rich
post Oct 17 2016, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 16 2016, 12:38 PM) *
AK - you are on the borderline here. Is this a threat, implying you are about to start insulting people? And are you saying that your fellow GMC:ers are unintelligent? I do not see how this post could contribute to the positive atmosphere on our forum.

I have not warned you in the past and will consider this a one time event.


Not at all. Simply making some observations and suggesting a course of action, and I don't believe what I posted suggests that anyone is unintelligent. I asked if the possibility has been considered that some might not be as intelligent as they may believe and that I have considered it.
There is for the most part a "positive atmosphere on our forum" as you say, but in this thread and a few others lately, not so much in my view.
The only other thing I have to ask is this. How can someone, anyone, politician, pundit or person have an expectation of respect when they are dishing out the disrespect?
So I will stand by what I posted since that is how I see things here lately. It is my opinion. Maybe you will forgive me for that, maybe not.
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Todd Simpson
post Oct 18 2016, 02:40 AM
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AKRICH: here is where you sorta crossed the line. In your previous statement, I quote

"Have you guys ever considered that maybe you are not as intelligent and grown up as you believe?"

The use of "you guys" followed by the question you posed, leans toward personal attack. The way you rephrased it in your recent post, is depersonalized and a much better approach in general IMHO when talking about politics in order to keep discussion civil.

I quote again, this time from your most recent post

"I asked if the possibility has been considered that some might not be as intelligent as they may believe and that I have considered it."

this is much less confrontational, less aggro and more abstract, less personal, etc. It's a general question instead of an accusation.

Folks should feel free to voice anything they wish in terms of party and or candidate and or candidates supporters in general as long as it's general. The problem is when it gets specific. That's when it turns in to a "personal attack" and gets folks banned for breaking the rules after being warned.

Todd


QUOTE
observations and suggesting a course of action, and I don't believe what I posted suggests that anyone is unintelligent. I asked if the possibility has been considered that some might not be as intelligent as they may believe and that I have considered it.
There is for the most part a "positive atmosphere on our forum" as you say, but in this thread and a few others lately, not so much in my view.
The only other thing I have to ask is this. How can someone, anyone, politician, pundit or person have an expectation of respect when they are dishing out the disrespect?
So I will stand by what I posted since that is how I see things here lately. It is my opinion. Maybe you will forgive me for that, maybe not.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 18 2016, 10:42 AM


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fkalich
post Oct 18 2016, 05:24 AM
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QUOTE (KenA @ Oct 17 2016, 05:08 AM) *
Back to H and T, well I think they are both unfit to be POTUS


H is the most qualified person to run for the presidency in our history. That means a lot, it is very important to have first hand experience. She is a politician, and they HAVE to hide some of their cards, it goes with the turf. I don't know what type of world people think we live in, or can live in, things have to be like that. Anything you can say about her, you could have said about FDR double.

Trump is without question the least qualified in terms of prior experience in our history to be a major candidate. This should really frighten everyone. Anyone notice besides me that North Korea's leader said that they might launch a first preemptive nuclear strike? You really want someone like Trump, using his vast experiences in building Casinos and Golf Courses, and hosting Reality TV, dealing with that? Nuts.

I never have gotten why people trash her so much. I don't get it. She is a politician. I hate to say it, but I am certain that much less would be said about her negatively if she were a man.

She will make a good president. There are indications that her and Ryan can fight it out and then strike deals, like politicians used to in the past. If Trump loses, cross my fingers, most voting for him will abandon him. Only a portion of them are his core, most just support him because they don't want Hillary. If she wins, well I expect he and his right wing supporters will be at least somewhat marginalized.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Oct 18 2016, 05:52 AM
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klasaine
post Oct 18 2016, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Oct 17 2016, 08:43 AM) *
The only other thing I have to ask is this. How can someone, anyone, politician, pundit or person have an expectation of respect when they are dishing out the disrespect?


Who started the thread.


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AK Rich
post Oct 18 2016, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 17 2016, 05:40 PM) *
AKRICH: here is where you sorta crossed the line. In your previous statement, I quote

"Have you guys ever considered that maybe you are not as intelligent and grown up as you believe?"

The use of "you guys" followed by the question you posed, leans toward personal attack. The way you rephrased it in your recent post, is depersonalized and a much better approach in general IMHO when talking about politics in order to keep discussion civil.

I quote again, this time from your most recent post

"I asked if the possibility has been considered that some might not be as intelligent as they may believe and that I have considered it."

this is much less confrontational, less aggro and more abstract, less personal, etc. It's a general question instead of an accusation.

Folks should feel free to voice anything they wish in terms of party and or candidate and or candidates supporters in general as long as it's general. The problem is when it gets specific. That's when it turns in to a "personal attack" and gets folks banned for breaking the rules after being warned.

Todd


I guess you edited out the part of your post that I read last night where you stated that insulting Trump supporters is not a personal attack, basically because it references a group of people rather than just one. What you posted is still on my phone because it was left open over night. Here is what you originally posted in case somebody missed it.

"An negative view/statement on trump and trumps followers is NOT a personal attack on anyone in particular even if you happen to consider yourself part of said group. Being able to objectify such things is the key to maintaining civility IMHO."
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Good move because that logic is ridiculous. When HRC called Trump supporters "A basket of deplorables." That was a personal attack en masse and it is no different when someone like you does it here.

That brings me back to Intelligence.
How intelligent is it to be insulting a group of people when debating Presidential candidates and the issues of a Presidential Election?
How intelligent is it for a candidate to personally attack millions of Americans when the candidate is supposed to be telling us why we should vote for them by listing accomplishment and what their policies would be etc?

And folks are indeed insulted, as they should be by this kind of comment and a long list of comments like it that have come from our current President and many in his administration, other Democrats in congress and mainstream media for the past 8 plus years.
Starting off a debate like this immediately creates a hostile atmosphere and is not at all constructive nor intelligent in my view. The only thing it does is take the attention away from the actual issues at hand.
Enough of the nanny nanny boo boo politics already. While we are all being divided and conquered I'll bet there are some folks in DC just laughing their asses off because all of this is a distraction from the REAL issues. The whole thing is nothing more than a big 3 ring circus. And we are ALL being played like a fiddle.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Oct 18 2016, 05:18 PM
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Rammikin
post Oct 18 2016, 05:39 PM
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Just asking a sincere question here: are you disagreeing with studies that show Clinton supporters as a whole are better educated than Trump supporters? If so, can you share the quantitative evidence for your dissenting opinion? And are you saying sharing or alluding to that evidence is an insult to somebody?

And you're disagreeing with the observation that in the last debate only one candidate, i.e. Clinton, listed accomplishments and described detailed policies? I'm not saying that's wrong, but that would run counter to widespread opinion, so you should expect to have to provide something to back up your assertion if you're going to say that.






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klasaine
post Oct 18 2016, 05:45 PM
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Here's what HRC said exactly ...
"To just be grossly generalistic, you can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables,"

Nobody at GMC is in that half.

Even though it's the 'chill out' section (irony not lost), it's still a guitar forum.
Anyone who posts a video or a link to a politically (and polemically) charged subject, whether it's a Saturday Night Live skit or some type of tin foil hat paranoid propaganda, should expect a reaction and just has to deal with it.

Because you don't post it for no reaction.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 18 2016, 05:52 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 19 2016, 01:04 AM
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I knew the statement would agitate you personally, so I removed it. It seems I was correct. However, the logic itself is sound. I can say that trump supporters seem to be a certain way in general, without attacking anyone in particular. Your perception of it being "ridiculous" is just that, a perception. You are welcome to it of course. The fact remains, you could make an observation, ( which you did in the quotes of yours I referenced) and in the second quote, you depersonalized it so that it's not a personal attack. Anyone should be able to say those things without folks on the other side freaking out and taking it entirely personally. After all, not every member of a given group is the same. There are exceptions in every rule and generalization. Which is why they are called "generalizations". You and crsn in particular seem to personalize the abstract observations and lash out with personal attacks. This is the root of the issue IMHO sad.gif

BASKET OF DEPLORABLES
This quote gets used quite a bit. If you watch the entire video, she is talking about the racists, sexist, isolationist, fans of dictator Putin, etc. Not about the populace in general. Trump himself, was recorded telling Billy Bush that he likes to "grab em in the P**Y" advocating sexual assault. Anyone advocating sexual assault is in the basket IMHO. Billy Bush WAS FIRED from his job. Trump moves on.

I'm sure you have seen many folks (typically Trump Supporters) saying things like " Obama is a Muslim" I'd be happy to provide clips if needed. Point of fact, Obama is a Born Again Christian and attends a Christian church. He is NOT Muslim. Then I've heard trump supporter say "he might as well be". It's this sort of clear ignorance (no other word for it) that leads me and others to categorize entire swaths of Trump supporters as being in a fact free bubble.

However, I'm not saying that every single supporter, including you and crsn and anyone else is part of that group. I certainly hope you are not. That's why I don't use personal attacks, I"m not trying to disparage anyone personally. We keep going over the same ground, over and over and over. It's becoming tiresome sad.gif Matter of fact, I'm so tired of it, that I'm gonna quit posting in this thread after tonight, as it's a bit of an echo chamber in here. No progress seems to be made, just a few comments, then come the personal attacks. I have not made any personal attacks. I have noticed that they seem to be coming from one side of the conversation. sad.gif


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Oct 18 2016, 11:26 AM) *
I guess you edited out the part of your post that I read last night where you stated that insulting Trump supporters is not a personal attack, basically because it references a group of people rather than just one. What you posted is still on my phone because it was left open over night. Here is what you originally posted in case somebody missed it.

"An negative view/statement on trump and trumps followers is NOT a personal attack on anyone in particular even if you happen to consider yourself part of said group. Being able to objectify such things is the key to maintaining civility IMHO."
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Good move because that logic is ridiculous. When HRC called Trump supporters "A basket of deplorables." That was a personal attack en masse and it is no different when someone like you does it here.

That brings me back to Intelligence.
How intelligent is it to be insulting a group of people when debating Presidential candidates and the issues of a Presidential Election?
How intelligent is it for a candidate to personally attack millions of Americans when the candidate is supposed to be telling us why we should vote for them by listing accomplishment and what their policies would be etc?

And folks are indeed insulted, as they should be by this kind of comment and a long list of comments like it that have come from our current President and many in his administration, other Democrats in congress and mainstream media for the past 8 plus years.
Starting off a debate like this immediately creates a hostile atmosphere and is not at all constructive nor intelligent in my view. The only thing it does is take the attention away from the actual issues at hand.
Enough of the nanny nanny boo boo politics already. While we are all being divided and conquered I'll bet there are some folks in DC just laughing their asses off because all of this is a distraction from the REAL issues. The whole thing is nothing more than a big 3 ring circus. And we are ALL being played like a fiddle.


Good question smile.gif here is a PEW RESEARCH POLL (not a blog post or something from Alex Jones, or Fox or MSNBC, etc. One of the most revered and time honored sources valid statistical information that we have on planet earth)

This is the breakdown. So yes. Statistically speaking, you can say certain things about both sides. However, AGAIN this is not to say that these are "UNIVERSAL TRUTHS" (E.G. some Trump Supporters have Ph.Ds and some Clinton supporters are high school dropouts). But "Generally Speaking" we can see that 59% folks with a Post Graduate Degree are leaning toward CLINTON. I "lean" toward Clinton and fall in to that group of Post Grads. Where 21% of folks with a Post Grad Education "lean" toward trump.


DOES THIS MEAN THE POLL AND EVERYONE WHO READS IS CALLING EVERY TRUMP SUPPORTER AN IDIOT? NO IT DOES NOT.

It's just a statistical inference from a Valid Poll. That's it.

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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Oct 18 2016, 12:39 PM) *
Just asking a sincere question here: are you disagreeing with studies that show Clinton supporters as a whole are better educated than Trump supporters? If so, can you share the quantitative evidence for your dissenting opinion? And are you saying sharing or alluding to that evidence is an insult to somebody?

And you're disagreeing with the observation that in the last debate only one candidate, i.e. Clinton, listed accomplishments and described detailed policies? I'm not saying that's wrong, but that would run counter to widespread opinion, so you should expect to have to provide something to back up your assertion if you're going to say that.


Well said smile.gif Let's not forget, the thread was started by CRSN with an attack add against Clinton showing her with the Evil Emperor from star wars and the thread titled "HILLARY MUST LOSE"

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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 18 2016, 12:45 PM) *
Here's what HRC said exactly ...
"To just be grossly generalistic, you can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables,"

Nobody at GMC is in that half.

Even though it's the 'chill out' section (irony not lost), it's still a guitar forum.
Anyone who posts a video or a link to a politically (and polemically) charged subject, whether it's a Saturday Night Live skit or some type of tin foil hat paranoid propaganda, should expect a reaction and just has to deal with it.

Because you don't post it for no reaction.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 19 2016, 03:44 AM


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fkalich
post Oct 19 2016, 02:02 AM
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When I was out of high school, I worked for 5 years in a warehouse as a driver, and then for a year on an assembly line in a factory. In that time I attended night school at a college, and then went away to KU as a Junior. And the people I worked with back then, well a lot of them were really intelligent guys. Sensible. Even philosophical. Well those were different times. But I think things have changed today, due to decades of Cable TV and Internet. Back then people had more humility. Today every Tom Dick and Harry thinks he has the answers, based on what they have seen on Internet sites. I have humility I think, although it may not seem that way. I know that in life, until you actually have direct experiences in a venue, you really cannot understand what it is like to deal in that venue, whatever perception you have of it will be way off the mark.

It is not formal education that has set me in my values. It is more all the books I have read, all the History, and Science.

Regarding this election, regardless of political slant, one candidate is the least qualified in American history. If you dispute that I will gladly discussion all 44 prior presidencies to illustrate that yes, nobody even comes close to Trump's lack of experience. I can see some argument for that as being positive on domestic issues. But dealing with global political situations, there is no way that someone like Trump will have even a clue what he is doing in that realm.

On the other side, Clinton is one of the most qualified candidates in American history, if not the most qualified w.r.t. prior experience.

If the candidate was Cruz, I would say he was a scoundrel, but I would not say it was insane. With Trump, it is insane, it is hard to believe this is really happening. What would people 40 or 50 years think if they could peak at this, that someone like that, with no experience in government service would be running to be the man who, if a crises occurs, or a glitch occurs that looks like a possible preemptive strike, has to make the call. It is totally insane. The big danger we all face is the same one we have always faced, that in a crises situation, the person in charge makes the wrong call, and that is the end of it. Maybe in 50 million years the cockroaches evolve a big brain and they get to have a go at what we failed at.
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klasaine
post Oct 19 2016, 02:17 AM
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My dad went to KU.

Ted Cruz actually scares me more than Donald Trump. Ted Cruz is a religious ideologue. Historically, that never goes well.

Go Jayhawkers!

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AK Rich
post Oct 19 2016, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 18 2016, 04:04 PM) *
I knew the statement would agitate you personally, so I removed it. It seems I was correct. However, the logic itself is sound. I can say that trump supporters seem to be a certain way in general, without attacking anyone in particular.
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=739241

The logic is sound eh? Then by that logic, since I referenced a group of people (you two) I haven't made a personal attack on anyone then have I?
Nevermind that , you can throw it out.

Let's say Joe Blow says that X race or X ethnic group are subhuman. And then walks it back to say half of race X or ethnic group X is subhuman. Either way Joe has insulted the entire race or ethnic group. That race or ethnic group views it as an attack or insult on the entire group because they have no way of knowing which half Joe was talking about.

I don't really care about studies or folks trying to rationalize why people support Trump. I know why, and I believe I have spelled it out before in other threads. It really doesn't have much to do with intelligence. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know when they are being shafted and that the country is on the wrong path based on how the policies of a certain political group has negatively affected their lives.
Would you scrutinize the BLM movement based on intelligence? And where do you think that would take us? Into hostility maybe?

This kind of thing re-enforces the view that some in Gov have which is that common folks don't really know what's good for them and they need to be led by the hand through life and monitored to make sure they stay on the path that the Gov lays out for them, not limited to but including moral beliefs and how and what folks should think and believe.

This is further than I wanted to go in this discussion and I really have no desire to get into a never ending back and forth on the candidates themselves. I only wanted to comment on the distraction that this kind of talk is from the real issues that need to be honestly discussed and up to this point in my view, haven't been.

Like some others here, I'll be glad when it's over. Although it will probably just be the beginning, all over again.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Oct 19 2016, 05:23 PM
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