A Bit On "satanism" As We Head Toward All Hallows Eve :) |
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Oct 22 2016, 09:40 AM
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Interesting post, T-Man. As you rightly pointed out, the concepts of Satan and Lucifer can be traced pretty much to their inception and subsequent adoption and distortion by certain figures.
If people will not baulk at the source, this is one of my favourite articles about the term 'Lucifer'. https://blavatskytheosophy.com/lucifer-the-lightbringer/ If people don't want to read it, here's an excerpt Isaiah 14:12, which says: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” Those who read this verse in its actual context will clearly see that the sentence is applied specifically to a certain Babylonian king who was an enemy in war of the Israelites. The original Hebrew text uses the word הֵילֵל which literally means “bright star” or “shining one,” a term applied sarcastically or mockingly by the Israelites to this particular enemy of theirs. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible – one of the chief of whom was the well known Rosicrucian initiate Dr Robert Fludd, a fact which will no doubt shock and horrify many Christians – chose to translate this word with the Latin word “Lucifer.” Note that many theologians and historians believe the Babylonian king in question be Nebuchadnezzar II. Also note that a single translation change by a fallible human can render changes in subsequent telling of the scriptures, which then become adopted as new tradition, despite being different to what the original believers believed. Since the only occurrence of the word “Lucifer” in the Bible is that one verse in Isaiah, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which says that Lucifer is Satan or the devil. It was Pope Gregory the Great (540-604 AD) who was the first person to apply that passage of scripture to Satan and thus to equate Lucifer with Satan. But even then this notion didn’t catch on in a big way until the much more recent popularisation of John Milton’s “Paradise Lost” in which Lucifer is used as another name for Satan, the evil adversary of God. So one dude, who happened to be Pope, who also happened to be one, fallible and very mortal man, decided that he personally was going to equate this passage with the figure of Satan. Milton's literary work also came along and helped influence the imagination of the public. And to confuse things even more: Yet who can deny that even Jesus is portrayed as boldly proclaiming his identity with Venus the Lightbringer in Revelation 22:16, where he says “I, Jesus, am the bright and morning star.” If the translators had chosen to translate this verse using Latin just as they did with Isaiah 14:12, it would read “I, Jesus, am Lucifer.” (emphasis mine) So all that basically goes to show that due to translation and different uses of a phrase can have different connotations and if certain influential figures adopt an erroneous translation then it gets passed down as accepted tradition. Thus the Christians who claim that Lucifer is the devil actually have no Biblical basis or authority for such a belief. Though they may claim to be “Bible believing Christians” whose faith is built solely on “the Word of God” they are actually followers – in this and many other respects – of Christian religious tradition and not of the Christian Bible. Or have they quietly conferred divine infallibility upon the Pope and Milton without informing the rest of the world? (emphasis mine) That's just for the name Lucifer. Satan is yet another story. But if anyone truly cares enough they either already know because they've done the research or they will go and do the research and realise that the original role of the 'Adversary' in the Bible is different to what later individuals turned it into it. If we go far back enough into all theistic belief systems, right back to Egyptian and Sumerian times, there were no religions that had a central personification of evil who was evil just for the sake of being evil. Maybe the closest the Sumerians got was Tiamat, the primordial goddess of the ocean, who also represented chaos - but she didn't represent evil. The Ancient Greeks had Typhon, a serpent headed monster (wait, a serpent you say?) who was spawned by the Titan Gaia in anger at Zeus for slaying the other Titans. Zeus slew Typhon and sent him into the Earth where legend says he became Mount Etna. The Egyptians had Apep or Aphophis, the giant Serpent (uh-oh, another snake) whose role was to fight Ra every night as the sun dipped below the horizon. Ra, along with fellow god Set (also sometimes equated with bad deeds) would overcome Apophis every night as they sailed through the underworld and the sun rose for another day. Oh, Apophis was also personified as Chaos. Like the Mesopotamian Tiamat, the Chaos that ancient religion spoke of is not the same as what we think of when we use the word chaos. Their chaos was closer to what we might call the void. They refer to the primordial void before the universe began. Norse legend had the giant serpent Jormungandr (yes, another slippery length), spawn of trickster god Loki. Odin hurled Jormungadr into the ocean where he grew so large he encircled the Earth and gripped his own tail. You may recognise this is being another representation of the Ouroboros symbol, a serpent eating its own tail.  So all traditions had their symbolic battle between the forces of 'good' and forces of 'bad', usually involving serpentine creatures which understandably, have been seen by man to be scary, unpredictable and characterised as untrustworthy due to the natural fear they induce in man. Would be a bit difficult to sell the idea of a monstrous rabbit battling the sun god Ra, for example. Btw, none of this takes away from any religious belief in my view. I just think it's interesting to learn about the different theistic traditions of different civilisations and also see how they have (most definitely) come into contact with each other and cross fed the stories. The names change to represent the different ethnicity and make it easier to be adopted. The stuff is just fascinating and look at how it still inspires humanity today in art, music and life. Dammit, Todd, what have you started?  QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 03:30 AM)  Let's all take as fact, that the Christian concept of dualistic "Satan" is very different from the original Jewish tradition of the Angelic view of Satan. In Jewish tradition, he works directly for God putting "Stumbling blocks" (Hebrew "mikshowl") in the paths of the righteous in order to make their decisions between Good and Evil have meaning. Yes, totally. The 'Satan', because 'satan' is a title and not a name, had a role given him by YHWH, which was to test the resolve and faith of certain individuals. Essentially he was like Internal Affairs. They've got a job to do but everybody hates them. He was employed by YHWH to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Or he was like an Inquisitor ( but a lot less evil ). If people really do want to take the Bible as fact then they should go to it as their source material and forget later tradition that arose due to certain people that had nothing to do with writing and compiling the scriptures. So the literary interpretation of Satan and Lucifer should be ignored unless they believe that John Milton had divine revelation, for some reason. Most of the Satanic / Lucifer stuff arose hundreds of years after the appearance of the scriptures and was mainly a literary invention used to great effect particularly in the middle ages by unsavoury and unscrupulous church folk to induce fear so that people would follow their word. It really is that simple. There is no Satan. If you do believe there is a Satan then you have to believe in 'The Satan' who works for YHWH, god of the Hebrews because that is the Satan presented in the Bible. |
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Oct 22 2016, 06:39 PM
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I believe you may have missed your calling to religious Scholarship Mr Ben!!!! I can see a Masters of Divinity in your future, or Masters of Heresy as it would be in our case
 hehehe.A very fine exegesis of various texts and traditions woven together with meaning and verve. I must say I'm entirely impressed and enjoyed it thoroughly. Not at all offended by the Blavatsky article as her name has been tainted just as much as the Arch Angle in Question to be sure, by certain, shall we say kindly, "Nut jobs", seeking to take advantage of her knowledge for their own gain.VERY VERY important to realize that "Satan" is a title and not a name, the same way "CHRIST" is a title (taken from the Greek "Christos" meaning "annointed one" as tradition holds that holy men/kings would be annointed with Holy Oil (some say Hemp Oil) for a given task, as Christ was annointed to be the Savior of Man, so it is said/written/believed/etc) Lucifer himself, (literally "Light Bringer" in many translations, or "Bringer of Knowledge) has been conflated with something quite evil by folks who seemingly should know better. In fact, the YAZIDI tribes in Iraq are being wiped out as we speak by ISIS for their belief that an Angel was being tested by God when told to bow down to the humans, and passed the test when he refused to do so. So they see him as an ok dude, where the ISIS folks think the YAZIDI's have to be killed to the last man/woman/child for venerating an Angel that defied God. ISIS insist that this Angel was in fact SATAN. Where the YAZIDI's Don't. From very spiff article at THE GUARDIAN (published in Bens' neck of the woods) "At the core of the Yazidis’ marginalization is their worship of a fallen angel, Melek Tawwus, or Peacock Angel, one of the seven angels that take primacy in their beliefs. Unlike the fall from grace of Satan, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, Melek Tawwus was forgiven and returned to heaven by God. The importance of Melek Tawwus to the Yazidis has given them an undeserved reputation for being devil-worshippers – a notoriety that, in the climate of extremism gripping Iraq, has turned life-threatening." This has been going on for quite some time. From the same Guardian article. "Under Ottoman rule in the 18th and 19th centuries alone, the Yazidis were subject to 72 genocidal massacres." This emotional plea for help from a Yazidi is most disturbing and moving. Just goes to show, a bit of misunderstanding and intolerance can lead to the most detestable sides of ourselves being set free and justified as "Mandated by God". Lucifer/Light Bringer/Bringer of Knowledge/whatever you might call him. Is in fact, an Angel of God. Doing God's bidding, as he always has. He deserves as much veneration as any other Angel, Gabriel (Sunday), Michael (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Uriel (Wednesday), Raguel (Thursday), Ramiel (Friday) and Sariel (Saturday). Not worship, but at least veneration IMHO They are here to help if you believe in that sort of thing Not bear witness to our cruelty towards each other.Of course, there are those who will read this and think I"m a "Devil Worshipper" Wouldn't be the first time!Todd QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Oct 22 2016, 04:40 AM) Interesting post, T-Man. As you rightly pointed out, the concepts of Satan and Lucifer can be traced pretty much to their inception and subsequent adoption and distortion by certain figures.
If people will not baulk at the source, this is one of my favourite articles about the term 'Lucifer'. https://blavatskytheosophy.com/lucifer-the-lightbringer/ If people don't want to read it, here's an excerpt Isaiah 14:12, which says: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” Those who read this verse in its actual context will clearly see that the sentence is applied specifically to a certain Babylonian king who was an enemy in war of the Israelites. The original Hebrew text uses the word הֵילֵל which literally means “bright star” or “shining one,” a term applied sarcastically or mockingly by the Israelites to this particular enemy of theirs. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible – one of the chief of whom was the well known Rosicrucian initiate Dr Robert Fludd, a fact which will no doubt shock and horrify many Christians – chose to translate this word with the Latin word “Lucifer.” .. This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 22 2016, 06:41 PM |
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Oct 22 2016, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 22 2016, 02:04 PM) Great book about hell and the devil ... https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Or...id=CJz_WXXYRs4C She's written many scholarly religious texts. Here's another really good one about very early Christianity ... http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/110763....Gnostic_Gospels And if Jewish mysticism combined with sci-fi and heavy paranoia is your thing ... Phillip K. Dick - "Valis Trilogy" and "The Transmigration of Timothy Archer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transmigr..._Timothy_Archer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS_trilogy Cheers for the recommendations, Ken
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Oct 22 2016, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 05:39 PM) I believe you may have missed your calling to religious Scholarship Mr Ben!!!! I can see a Masters of Divinity in your future, or Masters of Heresy as it would be in our case hehehe.I really do feel quite partial to a 'Master of Heresy' title to have on all official documents.  QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 05:39 PM) In fact, the YAZIDI tribes in Iraq are being wiped out as we speak by ISIS for their belief that an Angel was being tested by God when told to bow down to the humans, and passed the test when he refused to do so. So they see him as an ok dude, where the ISIS folks think the YAZIDI's have to be killed to the last man/woman/child for venerating an Angel that defied God. ISIS insist that this Angel was in fact SATAN. Where the YAZIDI's Don't. From very spiff article at THE GUARDIAN (published in Bens' neck of the woods) "At the core of the Yazidis’ marginalization is their worship of a fallen angel, Melek Tawwus, or Peacock Angel, one of the seven angels that take primacy in their beliefs. Unlike the fall from grace of Satan, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, Melek Tawwus was forgiven and returned to heaven by God. The importance of Melek Tawwus to the Yazidis has given them an undeserved reputation for being devil-worshippers – a notoriety that, in the climate of extremism gripping Iraq, has turned life-threatening." This has been going on for quite some time. From the same Guardian article. "Under Ottoman rule in the 18th and 19th centuries alone, the Yazidis were subject to 72 genocidal massacres." This emotional plea for help from a Yazidi is most disturbing and moving. Just goes to show, a bit of misunderstanding and intolerance can lead to the most detestable sides of ourselves being set free and justified as "Mandated by God". It's always disgusting to see entire groups of people victimised in such a way and especially over such a ridiculous and trivial reason.. well, not reason.. excuse. I wonder what Saladin would think of the violence involving his people the Kurds and the conflicts involving groups who claim to follow Allah. QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 05:39 PM) VERY VERY important to realize that "Satan" is a title and not a name, the same way "CHRIST" is a title (taken from the Greek "Christos" meaning "annointed one" as tradition holds that holy men/kings would be annointed with Holy Oil (some say Hemp Oil) for a given task, as Christ was annointed to be the Savior of Man, so it is said/written/believed/etc) Yes, indeed. It's incredible just how much the English language has taken from the Greek language. Medical terminology is littered with it. Did you know 'Hysteria' comes from the Greek term for a womb? They believed that many female maladies could be explained by the womb moving out of place. When that happened, a women's behaviour was explained away by this and the term stuck. And then you've got all the 'phobias' which come from 'Phobos' - fear. I'm currently reading a book about Ancient Greece right now. Every other page I'm finding the roots of certain modern words and I'm like 'Bloody hell, that's where that comes from. Oh and that as well. No way...' etc etc I had the same experience with a book about the Romans too. It's mind blowing to see the origins of words and their original description. English is mainly Greek & Latin with a bedrock of the Germanic tongue. QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 05:39 PM) Lucifer himself, (literally "Light Bringer" in many translations, or "Bringer of Knowledge) has been conflated with something quite evil by folks who seemingly should know better. Lucifer/Light Bringer/Bringer of Knowledge/whatever you might call him. Is in fact, an Angel of God. Doing God's bidding, as he always has. He deserves as much veneration as any other Angel, Gabriel (Sunday), Michael (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Uriel (Wednesday), Raguel (Thursday), Ramiel (Friday) and Sariel (Saturday). Not worship, but at least veneration IMHO They are here to help if you believe in that sort of thing Not bear witness to our cruelty towards each other.Of course, there are those who will read this and think I"m a "Devil Worshipper" Wouldn't be the first time!Todd As I understood it, modern man's appropriation of the name of Lucifer and what he represents came post Christianity. (See Luciferianism) Those of us who appreciate and admire the archetype of the Light Bringer see him as representing self sovereignty, courage & knowledge. Like the myth of Prometheus who brought fire and knowledge to mankind against the wishes of Zeus (sound familiar?), it stands for a refusal to be subservient and embraces taking responsibility for personal growth. Among those who champion the idea of Lucifer, there are many who claim he predates Christianity but in all fairness to historical fact, we have to admit that were it not for that passage in Isaiah and the later addition to Christianity of the fallen angel myth we probably wouldn't be using the name. However, you're suggesting he is celebrated as an angel in Gnosticism? Are we talking way back in the early days in Alexandria or more modern interpretation? I haven't looked into Gnosticism yet so consider me unschooled, my fellow heretic! QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 22 2016, 05:39 PM) Of course, there are those who will read this and think I"m a "Devil Worshipper" Wouldn't be the first time!Quite When I say 'Hail Satan' I mean it This post has been edited by Ben Higgins: Oct 22 2016, 09:12 PM |
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Oct 23 2016, 01:43 AM
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I'm a Jew. Folks have thought we're Satan worshipers for a couple of thousand years. All because of that meshugganah rabbi, Joshua ben Joseph.
-------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Oct 23 2016, 01:42 PM
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There's some very interesting points and Posts here, well written guys!!
-------------------- I'd rather have a full Bottle in front of me than a full Frontal Lobotomy!!
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Oct 23 2016, 06:39 PM
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Well said on all points
Early languages are a bit of a Hobby (I have a lot of hobbies) so I too noticed just how much of our language is derived from Greek. E.G. Most of it With bits of Latin thrown in for good measure The word you mentioned "Hysteria" is the root used in "Hysterical" which was a diagnosis given to females who were "acting out". The cure was to essentially massage the women to, ahem, climax, (done by a physician of course and later done by a doctor with an early form of vibrating tool) and then the "Hysterical" woman would relax. Imagine that? It's also where we get "Hysterectomy" meaning, removal of the womb. We owe so much of our language and thought, and culture to the Greeks, it's almost hard to draw a line. As for the Light Bringer, I am indeed suggested that he should be venerated, at least, as much as the other Arch Angels are. Prayers are often said to Michael in both Islam and Catholicism, yet none are offered to the bringer of knowledge? Doesn't seem quite fair I consider myself a follower of the "Gnostic" (NOT Agnostic) faith, which can mean many things of course. There is even a branch of Gnosticism called "Luciferian Gnosticism" which puts a high level of focus on the Bringer of Light. I don't personally ascribe to that branch, but to Gnosticism, as a general philosophy. Of course, nearly all Gnostic thought was declared Heresy by the early Catholic Church, and nearly all Gnostic texts and adepts, burned. Thankfully, we can say and do what we like these days without having to go to the stake for it After I started reading THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS by Elaine Pagels, as was mentioned in the thread, I emailed her and she even emailed back All the way from Princeton. I just thanked her for her work She replied..<h3 class="iw">"Elaine H. Pagels [email protected] via techniqueswithtodd.com </h3> 9/19/13  to Techniques Thanks for your note--after a morning spent working hard on a technical paper... I'm glad you find a kindred spirit in this work!best wishes, Elaine Pagels" ---- Needless to say I was thrilled to hear back from her and even more thrilled to be mentioned as a "Kindred Spirit" by a lady I have so much respect for. I consider it quite an honor to this day Todd QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Oct 22 2016, 04:12 PM) I really do feel quite partial to a 'Master of Heresy' title to have on all official documents.
It's always disgusting to see entire groups of people victimised in such a way and especially over such a ridiculous and trivial reason.. well, not reason.. excuse. I wonder what Saladin would think of the violence involving his people the Kurds and the conflicts involving groups who claim to follow Allah. Yes, indeed. It's incredible just how much the English language has taken from the Greek language. Medical terminology is littered with it. Did you know 'Hysteria' comes from the Greek term for a womb? They believed that many female maladies could be explained by the womb moving out of place. When that happened, a women's behaviour was explained away by this and the term stuck. And then you've got all the 'phobias' which come from 'Phobos' - fear. I'm currently reading a book about Ancient Greece right now. Every other page I'm finding the roots of certain modern words and I'm like 'Bloody hell, that's where that comes from. Oh and that as well. No way...' etc etc I had the same experience with a book about the Romans too. It's mind blowing to see the origins of words and their original description. English is mainly Greek & Latin with a bedrock of the Germanic tongue. As I understood it, modern man's appropriation of the name of Lucifer and what he represents came post Christianity. (See Luciferianism) Those of us who appreciate and admire the archetype of the Light Bringer see him as representing self sovereignty, courage & knowledge. Like the myth of Prometheus who brought fire and knowledge to mankind against the wishes of Zeus (sound familiar?), it stands for a refusal to be subservient and embraces taking responsibility for personal growth. Among those who champion the idea of Lucifer, there are many who claim he predates Christianity but in all fairness to historical fact, we have to admit that were it not for that passage in Isaiah and the later addition to Christianity of the fallen angel myth we probably wouldn't be using the name. However, you're suggesting he is celebrated as an angel in Gnosticism? Are we talking way back in the early days in Alexandria or more modern interpretation? I haven't looked into Gnosticism yet so consider me unschooled, my fellow heretic! Quite When I say 'Hail Satan' I mean it |
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Oct 25 2016, 09:16 AM
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Todd, I want to form a sect. There will probably be robes involved. Special titles. Definitely a logo. Do you want in?
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Oct 25 2016, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 25 2016, 12:36 PM)  
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Oct 26 2016, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 25 2016, 06:53 PM) P.S. Jesus of Nazareth Spoke Aramaic) Small world eh? Nazareth, also a band name. 70's rockers with one of the best album names and album covers ...  Plenty of cowbell This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 26 2016, 03:35 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Oct 26 2016, 04:09 AM
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Very true
Despite being born in Nazareth ( a very poor village) the Biblical authors needed to shoe horn him in to bethlehem in order to satisfy certain prophetic conditions. So they did But I think Nazareth makes a much better band name Bethlehem was also a band name of course, from an early dark/black Metal band from Germany.From Jewish prophecy to Black Metal in one post, woohoo!! Todd QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 25 2016, 10:34 PM) Nazareth, also a band name.
70's rockers with one of the best album names and album covers ... Plenty of cowbell This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 26 2016, 04:10 AM |
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