70 Percent Of Americans Don't Have A College Degree :( Options

[Todd Simpson]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...e-rick-santoru/

I really hope that in 2017, we can get our numbers up a bit. Especially in education. My fondest wish is that everyone can go to school and get an education and not be burdened by crippling debt afterward. In Europe, many countries have FREE College I think American students should have that option as well. If they want to go to college, they should be able to. Even if they can't afford it IMHO. But I'm sure there are at least three folks here that would vote NO on that idea for various reasons.

However, even before hearing the reasons for NO. I'd say the reasons for YES far outweigh them in the long run. Having an Educated Populace is the KEY to a working Democracy IMHO. When only a third of the country has a college education, we have 3/4 of the country without one. Having an uneducated populace, in the "Information Age" is nothing short of institutionalized failure for our way of life and idea idea of Democracy IMHO.

Still, whatever the reasons folks want to use, I still think students should have the option of getting a free college education from a decent state school. Not Harvard or such, just a decent state college that wouldn't put them in huge debt when they get out. We have over a trillion in student loan debt outstanding.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-...isis-2016-01-15

As a result, we have a "skills gap" (e.g. jobs that don't have bodies to fill them as they lack the skills since they have no education/training in said skills) of several million jobs. We have folks with Masters degrees working at starbucks and folks without college educations falling in to the "Working Poor" category.

In a "Post Industial" age and economy, having an education isn't a luxury, it's a survival technique.

Todd

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[AK Rich]

There is no such thing as "Free College." Someone has to pay for it, and most of us feel there is already too much of our wealth that is being redistributed to others while those that are footing the bill to pay for the way of others are not being properly represented by their elected officials.
IMO and the opinion of a great number of Americans, the USA has already drifted too far towards Socialism and Communism and the course needs to be reversed, not accelerated.
We are not a Socialist State. We are a Democratic Republic, if we can keep it. And there are a great number of Americans who know that ours is the best form of Gov on the planet and we mean to keep it that way. And the opportunities for individual success in the USA are greater than anywhere else in the world.
There are other ways to make it easier for folks to get a college education without making citizens foot the bill for other citizens.
The Socialist dream of making everyone equal is just that, A dream. The only way to make everyone equal as far as wealth is concerned, is to make them equally poor.

Furthermore, taxpayer funded education would devalue a college degree and costs of tuitions to taxpayers would increase to levels higher than they already are due to increased demand. So whatever the price tag that is put on this kind of proposal is, you can most certainly double it at least.
Also when you don't have to pay for a service you are getting, folks tend to start to take these kinds of things for granted. I believe we would see a higher level of college dropouts than we do now which is already pretty high and this would result in a great deal of the taxpayers wealth being wasted.

I think I would rather keep that money in my own pocket to use for things that I need and want, thank you very much.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 10 2016, 06:16 PM

[fzalfa]

really ??

surprizing !

here in france, it's free

Cheers

Laurent

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[PosterBoy]

Our colleges like our hospitals are non profit which makes it easier not to create huge student debts.

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[GeneT95]

I don't know if I'd use the word 'college' A degree doesn't mean a good job like it used to. I agree in Education but, although a generalist degree may make a smarter population which will create changes in society, an Education in that manner simply isn't what it used to be.

It would be much better for someone to seek a technical degree or be trained in a useful skill for which they can find a livelihood doing than 'Go to College' to get a general degree or degree in a field that is filled with others. Unless of course, they ARE the upper 1% in that field AND they plan on doing research which will advance our understanding.

The problem with school debt is two fold. One goes to College and gets a degree that does not translate into a useful skill or job AND you're in debt because of the Education you pursued. Only part of that debt is related to cost. A large part is related to that education actually translating into useful employ or a job that actually pays a reasonable amount for which one can pay back their debt rather than a job that pays so little that there is no hope because either the jobs for that education are not valued or one must take any job that pays as their education is relatively meaningless.

There are two ideas here. Knowledge to increase the social competency of citizens and Knowledge so that they can feed, shelter, and love their families. We are failing the first question in middle and high school, not just higher education.

I'm not trying to be elitist here. My Grandparents were immigrant coal miners/farmers who left Europe after WW2 to find a new life. They toiled every day to feed, shelter, and cloth their families and, if by chance or some trueness, that somewhere down the line, someone would actually achieve a dream that was not possible for poor farmers and miners such as they. My grandfather was put in a boat at 12 with his 14 yo older brother, alone, without family, because it was a risk worth taking. I went to College because my father gave me no other choice and back then college meant something different with respect to employability in their minds and in reality. In all honestly, I am no smarter than those that came before me and education played a huge part in achieving the dream that my forebears labored to hard for. But, I do not think higher education is a key to stability, social competence, happiness, or feeding oneself. It only does that when ones' education is such that it moves directly and fluidly from study in a field in which employ is guaranteed. Seeking a general education or education in particular fields of study does not do this. I feel that if a free education were available to me when I was young, I may not have achieved what I did, as the cost and sacrifice incumbent in that endeavor made me choose to enter a field of study that guaranteed my employ if I survived it.

To respond to some of the above.

1. Democracy has made us equally poor, although I think socialist ideas would further that even more. Democracy is not what it used to be either. A ill-informed or mis-informed, less educated, entitled, and biased population can not make a good democracy either as we are easily manipulated to freely believe what others want us to believe. Were simply not as poor because we have a lot more than other countries. If we didn't, we wouldn't be what we are. We are no less controlled than any other population, we just freer to think we are not. Keeping us poorer eases the ability to manipulate as our needs can be played to. In reality, we don't really have a true choice in our government. We just get to choose between the choices offered. And the choices offered by our career politicians, special interest groups, and controlling entities have been in decline for some time. This is easily done with a sedentary less educated 'free' entitled society'.

2. I don't agree education should be free for a couple reasons. In order for it to be free, the government will ultimately have to control the cost. This will lead to 'public' institutions being 'free' but the education being dictated by cost. Professors will be only paid so much. Offered classes will be controlled by what a government committee thinks is appropriate. Number of enrollees to certain majors/career fields controlled. Etc. Public schools already suffer from government intervention thru the dictating of what is taught and how 'competency' is measured. Furthermore, Private colleges will still be for a Fee, but since there are Free options, there will be no reason to offer scholarships. This will increase the divide between the education offered at Free and Private institutions and those who can afford to attend. Higher education should not be free, but perhaps not so expensive, especially when a large part of the expense goes to non-academic endeavors and are passed down to the student body.

3. Lack of education in the computer age does not mean lack of social competency. We are socially incompetent because we'd rather not educate ourselves on the facts and ideas of a particular issue from multiple sources, inside and outside our spheres, as we rather selfishly believe what we want to believe or are manipulated or told to believe because we do not seek knowledge on our own. Spoon feeding is preferred. Preferably a diet we already favor.

4. The skills gap is for technical trades. Not general education I believe. Although I could be wrong. People don't want to do those jobs. They're hard.

5. There is a lot about health care that I wish were or was not. The dissolution of For Profit urgent care and Hospital care is one of them. When you make more money from what your doing, you do more than is neccessary to make more money, which makes what your doing so much more expensive.

I was in school until 28. It was an arduous journey that would have been exorbitantly expensive if I had not taken a scholarship that obligated me to national service. But I wouldn't change it nor, I think, would the miners and farmers that came before me. I had to pay for it every step, in one way or another.

I have two in college. I agree their possible debt is more than it should be even going to an 'In State' school although they could manage it given their respective career fields. But I do think it would be much harder for them if their demographic was different and possibly impossible. It would be equally painful if their study was General rather than focused and definitely not worth the cost.

I'm sure someone will have words for my words. Or at least I hope so. Discussion is education.

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[fkalich]

And there are a great number of Americans who know that ours is the best form of Gov on the planet and we mean to keep it that way. And the opportunities for individual success in the USA are greater than anywhere else in the world.

Sounds more to me like there are a great number of Americans who have not seen much of the world, or gotten to know many people abroad.

Our colleges like our hospitals are non profit which makes it easier not to create huge student debts.

Yeah, but you don't have the best form of government and the best opportunities in the world like I get to enjoy every day!

Todd, As we have a President coming in who never reads books, and who had a 39% voting margin among whites with only a high school education, I don't expect much emphasis on education in the near future.

I think things like this will get better about things like this, but only after those Americans who were foolish, the misguided but reachable ones, learn the hard way how they have fallen for a con job. I guess it may be for the best, the learning curve will be more acutely painful, but we will get past it quicker now.

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[Todd Simpson]

Of course Just in case it's not clear, I"m talking about FREE FOR THE STUDENTS.


I'm not saying college itself should magically be "free" and not create costs. Is that really what you got from reading what I wrote? Did you notice the part about freeing the students from debt? Thus, my thesis that college should be free and assertion that students shouldn't be burdened with college debt (even included a link about student debt) taken together, seem to suggest I'm talking about free to the students, no?

I don't remember suggesting communism? But, you like social security right? You like Highways? How about free education k-12? None of those things offend you? They are all a bit socialist to be honest. I"m just suggesting we go k-college instead of k-12. Doing otherwise is to invite the decline of our country and way of life IMHO, we will be a Chinese Protectorate within two generations. Then you'll communism Or something similar. But yeah, I pretty knew you'd be against free college.

There is no such thing as "Free College." Someone has to pay for it, and most of us feel there is already too much of our wealth that is being redistributed to others while those that are footing the bill to pay for the way of others are not being properly represented by their elected officials.
IMO a.much.

France is a pinch more Socialist Friendly than the states. Even though we have many programs that would be an easy fit in france like Social Security, Federal Pensions, etc. Folks like Rich and Millions of others as well, about half the country (The Trump Half) are against free tuition for college, but ok with free school k-12 It's change that many folks just don't wanna hear about. Sorta like legalizing Marijuana about 10 years ago, it just was off the table. Now it's happening state by state. So give it time, I'm hoping we can learn a few things from France

really ??

surprizing !

here in france, it's free

Cheers

Laurent

Sadly, you NAILED IT. You are probably right. Practically prophetic actually. Based on the vote, the votees and who got voted in, we are NOT likely to see free education beyond k-12 and given that our new appointee for education is someone who is "PRO PRIVATE" primary education, and Christian Private to be precise, we are likely to see a serious defunding of public schools across the board from Universities on down the line. I hope not. But I'd say it's ore likely than not given who is now in charge of it. It's kinda sad really. Strike that, it's very sad.

Sounds more to me like there are a great number of Americans who have not seen much of the world, or gotten to know many people abroad.



Yeah, but you don't have the best form of government and the best opportunities in the world like I get to enjoy every day!

Todd, As we have a President coming in who never reads books, and who had a 39% voting margin among whites with only a high school education, I don't expect much emphasis on education in the near future.

I think things like this will get better about things like this, but only after those Americans who were foolish, the misguided but reachable ones, learn the hard way how they have fallen for a con job. I guess it may be for the best, the learning curve will be more acutely painful, but we will get past it quicker now.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Dec 11 2016, 10:24 AM

[AK Rich]

Of course Just in case it's not clear, I"m talking about FREE FOR THE STUDENTS.


I'm not saying college itself should magically be "free" and not create costs. Is that really what you got from reading what I wrote? Did you notice the part about freeing the students from debt? Thus, my thesis that college should be free and assertion that students shouldn't be burdened with college debt (even included a link about student debt) taken together, seem to suggest I'm talking about free to the students, no?

I don't remember suggesting communism? But, you like social security right? You like Highways? How about free education k-12? None of those things offend you? They are all a bit socialist to be honest. I"m just suggesting we go k-college instead of k-12. Doing otherwise is to invite the decline of our country and way of life IMHO, we will be a Chinese Protectorate within two generations. Then you'll communism Or something similar. But yeah, I pretty knew you'd be against free college.

Then maybe you should have used the words "Taxpayer Funded" rather than "Free." Right?
I don't know if I like Social Security or not since I haven't collected it and may not be able to collect it if things keep going the way they are because in case you haven't noticed, that program is in deep trouble and I since I can't really rely on it, I have taken my own steps to insure that I have secured my retirement.

As for the Dept. of Education. As far as I can tell things have went downhill with public education since it was upgraded to a cabinet level status during the Carter admin. In fact every social program created by Gov is a failure or cost far more than it was supposed to.
Parents who homeschool their kids do a better job educating than the public school system as evidenced by homeschooled students consistently scoring higher than public school students in standardized testing. And they aren't indoctrinated with a leftist ideology.

What you propose is actually unconstitutional since there is no provision in the Constitution for it in the Enumerated Powers as defined in the Constitution in Article 1 Section 8. The Dept. of Education itself is unconstitutional as well as defined in Article 1 section 8 and the 10th Amendment. The Federalist Papers are a good read as well. In particular and related to this topic Federalist Papers 41-45.

In case you haven't noticed. I am a Constitutional Conservative and I support only a limited Fed Gov as defined by our Constitution unless it is changed by a Convention of the States per Article 5.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 11 2016, 06:40 PM

[Marek Rojewski]

There is no such thing as free university. It just means that many people in Europe live thanks to their government stealing money from the rest of their citizens.
Also there is no such thing as "working democracy", democracy is just a prequel to socialism, and socialism is a prequel to communism. This is obvious since the times of Plato (just it was called tyranny, not the modern name).

Also in Europe there is way more graduates than needed in general, not to mention the fact that what the "market needs" is totally different than what people study and have a degree in. The situation is so pathetic, that most grown up man can't make a simple house repair themselves, and "as a very well educated and important person, with a degree in social science" need to call for a "smelly, uneducated plumber, to fix their WC". In Poland the situation is even funnier, because most "plumbers" already moved to Western Europe where even higher % of population is unable to do anything with their own hands, so in Poland "plumbers" often earn more money than people with a degree, because while no one really needs a social scientist, the society do need people who can do the "average work" well...

So I don't see how education is a survival thing, if you educate yourself in the wrong (without good prospects) direction, they your education is worthless (as long as we are talking about money/survival/etc.).

You either can do something that someone is willing to pay for, or you don't... Education isn't that much relevant.

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[AK Rich]

Sounds more to me like there are a great number of Americans who have not seen much of the world, or gotten to know many people abroad.

Maybe so , but that doesn't change the facts as I have stated them.

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[Todd Simpson]

And on to MUSIC! I'd like to challenge everyone in this thread to take a stab at the SUNDAY CHALLENGE before the day ends. Midnight is the deadline so you've got 12 hours!! I"d like to get back to music. Sorry for posting about education. My bad. The only education I"m really interested in is Music Education, like we do here at GMC To wit!!
----

!!! SUNDAY SHRED FEST X-31!!!!

The Rolling Stones "ish"

*I"m not playing in this vid. Instead, Instead, feel feel to use it to practice your lead! You can add it to a playlist on youtube if you like to keep track of it.
Direct Link to this Challenge : http://bit.ly/sundayshredfestx31

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[GeneT95]

Now I get Todd. This was a masterful ploy to get us all to enter the Sunday Shred Challenge.

Bravo. Bravo.

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[klasaine]

1) I don't believe that one needs to go to college/university to be successful.
2) I don't believe everyone should (regardless of the price) go to college. There are SO MANY folks floundering in college because they 'think' it's the only way to get ahead and are brainwashed into thinking that they must go to college when they'd be better off in technical school or apprenticing. We need hvac installers and repair people, auto mechanics, chefs, janitors, garbage men, locksmiths, city workers, etc.

Having said that, even state school is getting too expensive for many people and families.
One of the great things that college or university does, is expose you to different stuff, different ideas and different folks. It also teaches you to think (at least a little bit) critically.

Personally, I believe that cutting funding for public education and 'encouraging' private (and really fucking expensive) education is our government's and the ruling elite's long term plan to keep us stupid and effectively - sheep. Reagan started us down this road. I wonder if it was a grand plan?

As for best govt, best system, best whatever (in the US regardless of which administration) ... I don't know.
There's a lot good about this place. I love the States! I ain't goin' anywhere. But there are plenty of countries in the world that are, for all intents and purposes, free market democracies. Some of them are even a bit more 'democratic' in regard to some personal freedoms than ours. They're all a little different. The people are just as happy (or just as sad), just as free and have just as high a standard of living as us. Many of them have a longer life expectancy and overall healthier populous. Why do you think that is?
Travel. You'll find out. I mean that in a positive way. It's one of the best things you can do with your money. Go see some shit!

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Dec 12 2016, 10:33 AM

[Todd Simpson]

BINGO!!! Putting someone in charge of education, who despises public education. Hmm. Similar to putting someone in charge of the EPA who despises the EPA and has law suits against the EPA. Yup. Public education is going down. Just hide and watch.

Personally, I believe that cutting funding for public education and 'encouraging' private (and really fucking expensive) education is our government's and the ruling elite's long term plan to keep us stupid and effectively - sheep. Reagan started us down this road. I wonder if it was a grand plan?

My plans laid bare!!!

Now I get Todd. This was a masterful ploy to get us all to enter the Sunday Shred Challenge.

Bravo. Bravo.

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[AK Rich]

I don't remember suggesting communism?

Haven't you though? Is state run education not a primary and favorite tool of Communist Dictators? Think it through and be careful what you wish for.
Which is more like China or N Korea? A country with private education, or a country where the Gov controls education?

Don't get me wrong though. I understand your concern. I just think there must be a better solution to the problem, one that doesn't have the capacity to go horribly wrong.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 13 2016, 05:39 PM

[klasaine]

Most of the western (and a lot of the free eastern) world has 'state' funded and/or very affordable high level education and has for decades. Very little of the western world is communist. *North Korea, the DPRK is the only 'actual' communist country left in the world. China has a huge free market and Cuba has a small free market.

The scientists and dreamers in this country that WON the space race and then invented not only super computers but the modern personal computer (and by extension dawned 'the computer age') had affordable or free higher education. Many of them went to state school. Many of them had only one parent in the household that worked but who were still able to afford a higher education for their kids. Or, like me, college only cost between $300 and $1000 a semester - books and parking included. And I went to a very good 'state' school (CSUN). I paid for some of it by working a part time job (teaching guitar lessons and gigging) and my parents also paid for some of it. My brother - same thing.

One of the reasons we import many workers from abroad is that most of the time they are more qualified than their American counterparts. And I'm not just talking about 'cheap' labor or lower paid than their US counterparts positions. I'm talking about high paid work in the medical, technical, engineering, architectural, computer science, high-end manufacturing, research and even specialized teaching positions that Americans are becoming less and less qualified to do. Here in So. Cal. there are a ton of research positions as well as high tech and high tech design positions going to Italians, French, Spanish, English, Aussie's and Asians because their American counterparts aren't qualified enough - because they can't fucking afford school. These positions filled by foreigners are NOT lower paid because 1) they have to sponsor visas, 2) the cost of living is very high here and 3) they generally pay moving/re-settlement costs.
It would be WAY easier to hire a local. There's so much less bullshit involved. But if the locals can't cut the gig then you gotta look elsewhere ... and there's no shortage of 'elsewhere'.

In the interest of 'full disclosure', my wife, a green carded but still Italian citizen, took a full-time position away from an American (several americans) ... because she is way more qualified for the position - language professor at a local city college. She received two separate master's degrees from two different 'public' universities in Italy. It probably cost her the equivalent of $500 a year for 6 years. Totally affordable.

America wants to compete and not 'lose' jobs to foreigners. Well, America has to compete at the same level. Give more folks a fighting chance at a higher, quality education.
Come on, make America great again. Make 'em fucking smart again.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Dec 13 2016, 06:33 PM

[Rammikin]

The Greatest Generation accomplished some awesome things after WWII in the US. We look back with envy at those accomplishments. Well, that generation had a huge number of people whose college education was funded by the government via the G.I. bill. Please refresh my memory, but I don't recall that leading to a revolution of the proletariat. What it *did* lead to was a period of technological leadership and unparalleled prosperity.

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[klasaine]

I don't recall that leading to a revolution of the proletariat. What it *did* lead to was a period of technological leadership and unparalleled prosperity.

Yes, and lets all refresh our memories as to what types of governments arose when the down trodden, unable or not allowed to go to college (or technical school) and working poor did 'revolt' - Bolshevik (Russia) in 1917 and the Chinese revolution led by Mao in 1949.

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[jstcrsn]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...e-rick-santoru/

I really hope that in 2017, we can get our numbers up a bit. Especially in education. My fondest wish is that everyone can go to school and get an education and not be burdened by crippling debt afterward. In Europe, many countries have FREE College I think American students should have that option as well. If they want to go to college, they should be able to. Even if they can't afford it IMHO. But I'm sure there are at least three folks here that would vote NO on that idea for various reasons.

However, even before hearing the reasons for NO. I'd say the reasons for YES far outweigh them in the long run. Having an Educated Populace is the KEY to a working Democracy IMHO. When only a third of the country has a college education, we have 3/4 of the country without one. Having an uneducated populace, in the "Information Age" is nothing short of institutionalized failure for our way of life and idea idea of Democracy IMHO.

Still, whatever the reasons folks want to use, I still think students should have the option of getting a free college education from a decent state school. Not Harvard or such, just a decent state college that wouldn't put them in huge debt when they get out. We have over a trillion in student loan debt outstanding.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-...isis-2016-01-15

As a result, we have a "skills gap" (e.g. jobs that don't have bodies to fill them as they lack the skills since they have no education/training in said skills) of several million jobs. We have folks with Masters degrees working at starbucks and folks without college educations falling in to the "Working Poor" category.

In a "Post Industial" age and economy, having an education isn't a luxury, it's a survival technique.

Todd

I just don't understand your libertarian-ism here.How can you be for liberty, yet , by force of a gun ,take away my liberty by coming into my house and taking my money and giving it to someone else, whom you deem deserving , who didn't earn it .

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[fkalich]

I just don't understand your libertarian-ism here.How can you be for liberty, yet , by force of a gun ,take away my liberty by coming into my house and taking my money and giving it to someone else, whom you deem deserving , who didn't earn it .

Assuming you are not one of the 1/1000, I don't think it is your door we are primarily looking to knock on.

Do you pay for your own health insurance, as I have always paid? If you have an employer paying for it, you are are recipient of the largest tax subsidy on the books, it amounts to more money than even the mortgage interest deduction. People with decently paid jobs are the ones who get the IRS tax exemption because they get part of their pay in health insurance benefits. Walmart and Go Chicken Go employees miss out on that federal tax subsidy.

Take higher education. At a University you primarily you have kids going to school who had parents with reasonably high incomes, much fewer that came from hardship backgrounds. So who benefits mostly by the tax money spent to support state Universities? The middle and upper economic classes for the most part.

I can look around my middle class neighborhood, all the improvements constantly made, the upkeep on the neighborhood. How much money gets spent there on civic improvements for the people living in the poor sections of the city?

The more money you have, the more financial benefits you get in the form of government subsidies, people just don't realize it, and they complain about what they think that others on the lower economic ladder are getting from the government, when in fact they are themselves getting much more in subsidies than those people they complain about.

Another example, a small significant one, voting access. How long did I wait in line to vote in my neighborhood, in a county with high average incomes that significantly favored Trump? I was in and out in 10 minutes. The average wait time for Black voters (according to PEW) to vote is twice that of average white voters. Republican state legislatures have engineered a number of blocks to make it difficult for Blacks to vote, Blacks who on average earn only 60% of what Whites earn in incomes.

And one final example, a big one, Donald Trump being the poster boy for this one. Here is a man who has used the welfare system to the max, declaring bankruptcy many times, and always coming out the wealthier for it. If you want to talk about welfare abuse, you don't find a better example of anyone who has exploited the government for everything he could get, building a financial empire on $850 million in tax breaks. The really big welfare recipients are not poor Blacks in the inner city, they are people like Donald J. Trump.

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This post has been edited by fkalich: Dec 14 2016, 09:03 AM