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> Gone Backwards
Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 11:27 AM
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Hello folks,
I'm working on THIS lesson. I've been on it a long time now, the biggest problem area is the two bars of double stops. I've managed to play the whole piece at 90% speed once with GP5. For some reason I am now struggling again with the double stop section, I've had to slow it down to 50% and can't play it any quicker without the timing being all over the place.

I'm wondering if my brain has slowed down with the Christmas holiday.

I'm really really frustrated, this is something I want to conquer, I've given up on level 3 lessons before but I want to crack this one.

Has anyone else ever gone backwards? If so, how did you overcome it?

Cheers

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Dec 27 2016, 11:28 AM


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Wyverex
post Dec 27 2016, 01:54 PM
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I wouldn't worry about it too much. Forgetting is actually a crucial part of learning because each time you have to struggle a bit too recall something (be it information or a movement) the brain can keep that thing a bit better the next time. The tricky thing is just to tune this process to just forget a little bit each time. That's why we need to practice a small part of a piece until it has really seeped into muscle memory.

Maybe double stops are something really difficult for you and you need way more time for this process. That's ok! Just don't stop doing it. The only reason why we don't succeed in learning something is because we stop doing it. The harder it gets, the more we need to reduce the amount of material we want to practice at once. Focus is the key.

What you experienced with being able to play the piece at 90% was maybe a form of habitutation effect? When you spend, for example, one hour playing a piece you can probably increase tempo quite high and still feel good with it. Then, when you return next time, you might struggle again at half the tempo. That's just a normal learning process. A better way might be interleaved practice, where you just spend a small amount of time on something before going to the next and then returning later on (For example, 5 minutes double stops, 5 minutes something else, 5 minutes another thing and then repeat that loop). It doesn't feel like progress while practicing but it has a way better long-term effect. I'm a firm believer in this when it comes to pure memory (e.g. vocabulary) and I'm currently trying to use this technique for my guitar practice as well. There's a good book on this which I can recommend (although it comes more from the (information) memory angle): https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science-S...s=make+it+stick
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Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 02:16 PM
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Thanks Wyverex,

The thing is, I've been playing it at 70-80% for weeks now with the odd 90% but suddenly I'm having to go back to 50% and in fact I don't think I'm playing some of the other parts as clean as previously. Is it possible to try too hard and it become detrimental to progress?

It's not the double stops that are tricky in themselves for me, it's the timing of it, I have the same issue if I play it on single string. The phasing and timing of it doesn't feel natural to me.

Thanks for your time buddy.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Dec 27 2016, 05:12 PM


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klasaine
post Dec 27 2016, 05:22 PM
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+1 on Wyverex's post above. Great insight!

For me, when I'm having trouble with phrasing and or timing, I need to work on it in my head - away from the guitar. I need to be able to sing it. Know it inside me as opposed to just in my hands or on the fretboard.

Also, with some of the purely technical things - you can't take a break until it's literally easy for you. There's a saying: You don't practice until you get it right. You practice until you can't get it wrong.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Dec 27 2016, 05:24 PM


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Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 06:02 PM
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Thanks Ken,

The big question for me though is how can I have been playing it for weeks at 70-80% quite well and now I'm suddenly struggling at 50%? It's so demoralising. I'm at the point where I don't want to give up on another level 3 lesson but I don't think I'll ever crack a level 3 lesson so do I just accept that I'm level 2 forever?

I can handle slow progress, I don't get a lot of time to practise so I expect to progress slowly, I can handle the odd session not going well, but going backwards by so much has killed me, I've just been and tried again, it was awful.

Cheers


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klasaine
post Dec 27 2016, 06:25 PM
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Did you play it everyday, twice a day for weeks?
Did you skip a day or two?
It's relatively easy to work up to speed over an hour or so but when you can play it first thing in the morning - before coffee ... then you have it.

The hard reality is that once you get to certain place in your playing you can't really take a day or two off w/o losing something.
Great quote from the cellist Pablo Casales: If I skip a day, I notice it, if I skip two days, my manager notices it, if I skip 3 days my audience notices it.


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Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 07:41 PM
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Thanks Ken,

I missed Christmas eve; just one day! I've gone back more than when I go on holiday for a fortnight and I'm away this Friday for four days and can't take the guitar with me. I have NEVER gone back so far so quickly. I never ever miss a practise unless I'm on holiday, ill or it is my wife's birthday or something like Christmas when I like to spend more time with her. We were never blessed with kids so it doesn't seem right to leave her on her own at Christmas time, I managed to get Christmas day practise in as I gave her an extra glass of wine with the dinner and she had a nap afterwards wink.gif I sometimes miss a practice because that old thing called life takes a wrong turn and throws a curve ball but that's not regular.

I have been putting more in than normal lately, two hours most nights with an hour on that one lesson. I've played that double stop section none stop for an hour varying the speed. I've tried all sorts. When you're doing as much as you can and you go backwards it's a mental killer mate.

Could it be that, this is pushing my skill boundaries which makes it so easy to lose? It took me ages to see that Gab's hand was actually doing what the TAB shows, I was convinced that he was playing the same thing twice, I had to import the video into VLC Player and play it at a very slow speed to see that he is actually hitting that 19th fret double stop 4 times in the second bar (See below). For some reason I have been having a mental block with those two bars and when I finally got it down, slowly, I thought I'd just need to polish it. How wrong was I?

--10-10-10-7-7-10-10-12-12-10-10-7-7--7-7-|
--10-10-10-7-7-10-10-12-12-10-10-7-7--7-7-|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|

S S S S S S S S S S S S E S S
--10-10-10-7-7-12-12-12-12-10-10-7-7--7-7-|
--10-10-10-7-7-12-12-12-12-10-10-7-7--7-7-|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|
------------------------------------------|


I started this lesson November 7th, HERE is where this little journey began if you want to follow it, no problem if you don't, I understand wink.gif


Thanks

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Dec 27 2016, 07:52 PM


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fzalfa
post Dec 27 2016, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE
Has anyone else ever gone backwards?


You are not alone !! i have gone backward too

some month ago i have learn Burden from Opeth, the whole track incl ryhthm and all the solos !!!!

now i have forget almost of the parts, nad i must re learn it .

i have forget all the Opeth stuff i have learn this years: faith in the other (re learned in one day), in my time of need, ending credits, hours of wealth and to rid the desease !

everything is gone !!

Laurent

This post has been edited by fzalfa: Dec 27 2016, 07:49 PM


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Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 07:51 PM
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Thanks Laurent,

The difference is that you have gone backwards on those pieces because you have not been playing them whereas I have been practising my lesson. This is what is killing me at the moment.

Cheers

Phil


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fzalfa
post Dec 27 2016, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 27 2016, 07:51 PM) *
Thanks Laurent,

The difference is that you have gone backwards on those pieces because you have not been playing them whereas I have been practising my lesson. This is what is killing me at the moment.

Cheers

Phil


Phil, sometime, from a day to another i lost all speed or palm mute......

i have experimented this last week, i produced unwanted noise as never !!!! i had turned crazy !!!

Theses days i recover it

things are comming and going sometimes, ùaybe in relation with our mental health and state

Cheers

Laurent


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Phil66
post Dec 27 2016, 09:45 PM
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Well I've had a bit of progress, I've just spent an hour just doing the double stop section but on a single string. Maybe Wyverex, you were right, I managed to get back up to 80%, probably because there is less right hand movement, obviously I've got to get back to the 2 strings but it has given me a bit of hope. smile.gif


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Wyverex
post Dec 28 2016, 11:05 AM
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One thing I'm doing at the moment and what works fairly well for me is to set a target speed for a given section and practice only at that speed or below until I have it down. But as klasaine already said, the determining factor is not whether I can play at that speed after an hour of practice but whether I can do it first thing when starting. I just don't progress until that section is really mastered (or what feels as mastered to me, I'm sure this feeling will evolve over time and in a couple of years I will hear more small details and keep longer at something).

So for example, in your case it might be an idea to set a target speed like 75%. Each time you sit down to practice, try to play once at 75% and just observe how it feels and where the tricky bits are. Then just practice those tricky bits and slow down as much as you need to. After a couple of days you might suddenly play it comfortably. That's the point where you set the next target speed. Rinse and repeat smile.gif I try to make a bit of a jump with each target speed. So for example, from 100 BPM to 120 BPM, to keep me challenged but not overwhelmed. I'm not sure if this works for everyone but it seems to work for me.

No matter how long it takes, never stop doing it and eventually you will have it! Good luck smile.gif

This post has been edited by Wyverex: Dec 28 2016, 11:07 AM
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Phil66
post Dec 28 2016, 01:12 PM
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Thanks Wyverex

I was managing 70% "cold" though so how have I suddenly regressed so much? Thanks for your advice though, I am taking it in I'm just frustrated at going backwards so far so quickly. It's more than a hiccup. I need to know how to stop it happening again. As I said it's not like the odd session that doesn't go well, it's a solid regression.

Cheers

Phil


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klasaine
post Dec 28 2016, 05:06 PM
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Maybe there's some little technique thing that you were doing when you were learning it that as you progressed in speed went away or changed. Without watching you play it's difficult to assess the issue.

*My right hand (picking hand) is ALWAYS my issue whenever I'm struggling with technique. Maybe the problem isn't the actual double stops on the fret board but whatever's going on in the other hand - ?


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Phil66
post Dec 28 2016, 05:23 PM
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Thanks Ken,

I'll pop a video on this evening. wink.gif


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Phil66
post Dec 28 2016, 10:15 PM
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There you go, any further advice greatly appreciated. Played "fast" and slow no backing to distract. I start with an upstroke because that's how it happens in the piece.

Thank you very much smile.gif



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klasaine
post Dec 29 2016, 03:53 AM
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1) As you did it in the vid, you got a little cleaner each time.
2) Your right hand (picking hand) is swinging down a little farther than it needs to on the down strokes, which will make it a bit harder to synchronize with your fretting hand.
3) Are you doing all the dbl stops with one finger? That's always gonna be difficult, especially if you're not the guy that wrote the lick.

*Nice guitar!


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Phil66
post Dec 29 2016, 10:48 AM
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Thanks Ken,

It's a PRS SE custom 24 in amethyst.

I'm using my first and third fingers to do the double stops.

Cheers


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