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Todd Simpson
post Jan 22 2017, 08:17 PM
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With everyone calling everyone else "Fake News" these days, I thought I'd share an article on what Journalists, (real, actual journalists) should be doing in order to avoid being labeled as "Fake News". It's pretty simple really, always have two sources for every story, verify both, get one to go on record if possible, protect the name if needed but tell your editor so he/she can verify etc. It's the collapse of basic journalistic standards that have led us to a fact free world imho sad.gif Here is the link and info.
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http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/training-...mour-and-gossip


Why it's important to check facts
Journalism is about finding facts, interpreting their importance, and then sharing that information with the audience. That's all journalists do: find, verify, enrich and then disseminate information.


Why fact-checking matters
It sounds easy, doesn't it, observing what is going on, asking questions, uncovering facts and then telling the public what we have discovered.

But we are dealing with volatile raw material. Handled carelessly, the facts we uncover, research and present have the power to cause misunderstandings, damage and could, potentially, change the course of history.

That's why it's essential that we apply robust fact-checking to all our journalism. This is the process that distinguishes facts from rumour and gossip, spin from substance, and often reveals what some would prefer to keep hidden.

The following is a checklist that all journalists might want to follow if they are to play an effective role in informing the public debate.


1: Are you preventing thorough fact-checking?
The first obstacle to accurate fact-checking could be you. Do you have a vested interest in the topic, as opposed to a genuine journalistic interest?

Are you investigating the situation because you have a desired outcome in mind? Are you trying to make the facts fit a headline you have already prepared in your head?

If so, you may have compromised your objectivity which will make it difficult to produce a piece of journalism that is strictly factual.

Of course, there will always be causes close to your heart that matter to you as an individual, but you must not let this influence your work.


2: The two reliable sources rule
Most media organisations have a rule that all facts should be confirmed by two reliable sources.

Often the wires will be counted as one source. The journalist then has to find another source that is willing to go on record to verify the information.

Ideally, you should be able to attribute the information found to that named source. Sometimes, because of legal reasons, privacy issues or the likelihood of danger, it is not advisable to name sources. In such cases you need to be sure that your source is trustworthy.

You will need to be able to convince your editor that the source is legitimate and the information the source is sharing is correct.


3: Don't rely on the news wires, they could be wrong
Some media organisations simply copy and paste wires stories. That's fine; media organisations pay a lot of money for wires feeds. However, the wires will sometimes get it wrong and issue retractions.

You don't want to have to apologise to your audience for having blindly copied and pasted unverified information. If you do, you may have let your audience down and you will have reduced the standing of your media organisation, and yourself, in the minds of those who had previously turned to you for verified and reliable information.


4: Who can a journalist trust?
Well, the truth is, nobody. A journalist must never accept what they are told without scrutinising the information.

Journalists should take a sceptical view of every piece of information shared with them. They should not blindly trust contacts – even if those contacts have proved reliable in the past.

This could lead to a cosy relationship that results in you dropping your guard, compromising your standards and publishing or broadcasting incomplete or unreliable information.


5: Breaking news, attribution and qualification
There will be times when you break the two-sources rule.

There may be breaking news on the wires and, although you are unable to confirm the information, you have evidence that it has happened and want to get the news out quickly.

This will be a senior editorial call. In those cases you will add the words "according to the wires" or something similar. You also may want to qualify the information by saying "we have not yet been able to confirm the reports" or similar words.

There are other exceptions.

When I worked on my first newspaper we would do the daily calls to the police, fire and ambulance services. They would read the list of incidents that had taken place since the last call. We would then seek out witnesses, neighbours etc before publishing.

When I moved to local radio we had hourly news deadlines. We would call the emergency services from the newsroom and broadcast with attribution and qualification, such as ‘"police are reporting that", or "according to police."

However, for big stories we would always seek confirmation either by sending a reporter to the scene or calling victims or those affected.


6: Stakeholder influences and sources
A journalist is bombarded with facts and so-called facts. These come from a wide variety of sources; stakeholders, contacts, the journalist's own research and digging.

Whatever the source, whether it is a previously reliable contact, a trusted friend, or a figure in authority, the same rigour needs to be applied to all fact-checking.


Senior colleagues:
Did your editor or a senior editorial figure push this story? If so, why? What was their reason? Don't presume that a story is legitimate just because it has been handed down to you to follow up.


News releases:
Did the information come from a news release? If so, what is it that the publisher wants to promote or hide? Your job is to reflect all sides of the story.


Wires:
Why did the news agency pick up on that particular point? What's the reason for putting it out? Did they just regurgitate a press release? You need to uncover all relevant angles to the story.


General public:
Did you get this information directly from a contact? Are they reliable? Are you sure that you are not being used? Could you be too close to them? Have you worked with this contact before? Did you deal with them with integrity? Could they be expecting favours? If so, what did you do to lead them to believe that you could be manipulated?


Yourself:
Sometimes you, the journalist, can be the biggest obstacle to the delivery of reliable information. Be honest about your interests, weaknesses, favouritisms - you may think you are beyond reproach, but if you do have a vested interest it will show through to the audience.

Your job is to deliver facts to your audience so they can make informed choices. If you deliver lies or distorted facts, you are adding to the confusion rather than clarifying issues. That is not journalism. Accuracy in our fact-checking is at the heart of all we do.



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fkalich
post Jan 24 2017, 03:15 AM
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You will find this interesting reading Todd. The author is a senior fellow at Stanford, Political Science. He really explains things well, what is in play, what the dynamics are. It really is excellent.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/201...emocracy-214683

Regarding fake new, did you ever watch Doctor Who when Tom Baker was the Doctor? Baker is my favorite all time Doctor. Here is a quote from one of my favorite episodes, the one where Lela the savage was introduced into her recurring role. I will post a picture of Lela was well, she was my favorite companion until Amy Pond came along. I will post Amy also.

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Todd Simpson
post Jan 25 2017, 10:12 PM
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HUGE Doctor Who Fan smile.gif And yeah, poweful folks can certainly be a monkey in the wrench as it were smile.gif Just thought I'd share the basic Journalistic Standards that Journalists are expected to adhere to as most folks simply have no idea what "Fake News" is vs "Actual News that been double verified/vetted etc". It's those processes that keep stuff like "Obama was never and American" and "Michelle Obama is a Man" and other bunk from showing up in our news feeds. The sad news is folks just have no idea in general and just read the headlines in facebook and share it without reading the story, or checking the source, or seeing where it's from, etc.

If a news item from a legitimate source hasn't been or can't be verified, the journalist will say so. Or they should smile.gif E.g. "This video could not be verified". E.g. Take it with a grain of salt. For example cell phone video from Syria where Journalists can't really go in and ask various malitia and Military to verify a cell phone clip that might damage them politically. Still, if the basic journalistic standards, which involve double verification were more widely known, I would hope folks would get duped a bit less by their facebook feed. In the broad sense, there is no truth because there is no reality. But I"m not really trying to get that abstract. Just sharing Journalism 101.

Todd


QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 23 2017, 10:15 PM) *
You will find this interesting reading Todd. The author is a senior fellow at Stanford, Political Science. He really explains things well, what is in play, what the dynamics are. It really is excellent.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/201...emocracy-214683

Regarding fake new, did you ever watch Doctor Who when Tom Baker was the Doctor? Baker is my favorite all time Doctor. Here is a quote from one of my favorite episodes, the one where Lela the savage was introduced into her recurring role. I will post a picture of Lela was well, she was my favorite companion until Amy Pond came along. I will post Amy also.

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jstcrsn
post Jan 26 2017, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 24 2017, 03:15 AM) *
You will find this interesting reading Todd. The author is a senior fellow at Stanford, Political Science. He really explains things well, what is in play, what the dynamics are. It really is excellent.


Regarding fake new, did you ever watch Doctor Who when Tom Baker was the Doctor? Baker is my favorite all time Doctor. Here is a quote from one of my favorite episodes, the one where Lela the savage was introduced into her recurring role. I will post a picture of Lela was well, she was my favorite companion until Amy Pond came along. I will post Amy also.

no journalism here , just a biased hit piece from a life long ideologue, you havent learned nothin , keep it up , and Trump will win in 2020
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fkalich
post Jan 26 2017, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 25 2017, 04:12 PM) *
HUGE Doctor Who Fan smile.gif And yeah, poweful folks can certainly be a monkey in the wrench as it were smile.gif Just thought I'd share the basic Journalistic Standards that Journalists are expected to adhere to as most folks simply have no idea what "Fake News" is vs "Actual News that been double verified/vetted etc". It's those processes that keep stuff like "Obama was never and American" and "Michelle Obama is a Man" and other bunk from showing up in our news feeds. The sad news is folks just have no idea in general and just read the headlines in facebook and share it without reading the story, or checking the source, or seeing where it's from, etc.

If a news item from a legitimate source hasn't been or can't be verified, the journalist will say so. Or they should smile.gif E.g. "This video could not be verified". E.g. Take it with a grain of salt. For example cell phone video from Syria where Journalists can't really go in and ask various malitia and Military to verify a cell phone clip that might damage them politically. Still, if the basic journalistic standards, which involve double verification were more widely known, I would hope folks would get duped a bit less by their facebook feed. In the broad sense, there is no truth because there is no reality. But I"m not really trying to get that abstract. Just sharing Journalism 101.

Todd


A poll today showed that the majority of Americans are not falling for Trump lies. Still it showed that his supporters are falling for it. My life long question, "do people really believed what they read in the National Enquirer", is answered.

We need to focus on those people who are basically sensible people, but were misguided in voting for him, and really forget about the hard core base, they are unreachable. I am convinced that most of the hard core, given the choice between Democracy and loss of power, or Autocracy and retaining it, would choose the latter. I just count to 10 when confronted by one of them, and ignore them. I was once misguided. I supported Bush and the Iraq war I am ashamed to say.

Here is a disturbing item. It is close to home because I worked for NASA in this program for 5 years, obtaining environmental data and providing it to the research community. It was called EOSDIS. Trump just axed it, part of his assault on environmental protection. Now much of the data available to demonstrate environmental devastation will no longer be available. Researchers across the world are now warehousing as much data as possible before it is scrubbed from US government web sites. As you probably heard, Trump issued a directive for the government not to provide any more environmental data. This is not just an American issue, Trump is a danger to the whole world in a number of ways.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/201...change-research

Did you ever think anything like this would happen to our country Todd? I didn't. It is like a nightmare.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Jan 26 2017, 07:53 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Jan 26 2017, 03:19 PM
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Indeed smile.gif I fully expected him to use his new power to mold the world around him to fit his Truth. In his world. "climate change" is a Chinese Hoax as he has been quote as saying many times. yes, he's a danger to the planet. Worse, his minions embrace logical fallacy as a means of communication. To wit! Here is a handy chart showing all the main LOGICAL FALLACIES. If you notice a candidate from either party using one of these in an argument YOU ARE BEING DUPED. I see it every time I watch the news. It's really sad. What's worse, is that two thirds of Americans seem to have no idea what LOGICAL FALLACIES are and don't know they are not valid arguments for anything. Here is a handy chart.
Attached File  LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A3.pdf ( 624.97K ) Number of downloads: 29

Attached Image

*Download and enlarge so you can read the text. Print out a copy and put it by the tv/computer where you get your news. Eventually you will notice when folks are straight up using logical fallacy to make their point and realize you are being duped.

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 26 2017, 02:45 AM) *
A poll today showed that the majority of Americans are not falling for Trump lies. Still it showed that his supporters are falling for it. My life long question, "do people really believed what they read in the National Enquirer", is answered.

We need to focus on those people who are basically sensible people, but were misguided in voting for him, and really forget about the hard core base, they are unreachable. I am convinced that most of the hard core, given the choice between Democracy and loss of power, or Autocracy and retaining it, would choose the latter. I just count to 10 when confronted by one of them, and ignore them. I was once misguided. I supported Bush and the Iraq war I am ashamed to say.

Here is a disturbing item. It is close to home because I worked for NASA in this program for 5 years, obtaining environmental data and providing it to the research community. It was called EOSDIS. Trump just axed it, part of his assault on environmental protection. Now much of the data available to demonstrate environmental devastation will no longer be available. Researchers across the world are now warehousing as much data as possible before it is scrubbed from US government web sites. As you probably heard, Trump issued a directive for the government not to provide any more environmental data. This is not just an American issue, Trump is a danger to the whole world in a number of ways.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/201...change-research

Did you ever think anything like this would happen to our country Todd? I didn't. It is like a nightmare.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jan 26 2017, 03:25 PM


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AK Rich
post Jan 26 2017, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 25 2017, 10:45 PM) *
A poll today showed that the majority of Americans are not falling for Trump lies. Still it showed that his supporters are falling for it. My life long question, "do people really believed what they read in the National Enquirer", is answered.

We need to focus on those people who are basically sensible people, but were misguided in voting for him, and really forget about the hard core base, they are unreachable. I am convinced that most of the hard core, given the choice between Democracy and loss of power, or Autocracy and retaining it, would choose the latter. I just count to 10 when confronted by one of them, and ignore them. I was once misguided. I supported Bush and the Iraq war I am ashamed to say.

Here is a disturbing item. It is close to home because I worked for NASA in this program for 5 years, obtaining environmental data and providing it to the research community. It was called EOSDIS. Trump just axed it, part of his assault on environmental protection. Now much of the data available to demonstrate environmental devastation will no longer be available. Researchers across the world are now warehousing as much data as possible before it is scrubbed from US government web sites. As you probably heard, Trump issued a directive for the government not to provide any more environmental data. This is not just an American issue, Trump is a danger to the whole world in a number of ways.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/201...change-research

Did you ever think anything like this would happen to our country Todd? I didn't. It is like a nightmare.



http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_con...rez_track_jan26

Thursday, January 26, 2017

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 59% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Forty-one percent (41%) disapprove.

The latest figures include 44% who Strongly Approve of the way Trump is performing and 31% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of +13

http://www.investors.com/politics/commenta...ular-president/

Attached Image

Dow bursts through 20,000, extending a rally that looked unlikely a year ago

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mark...0125-story.html

U.S. Rally Is the Envy of Stock Markets Worldwide

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-rally-is-t...wide-1485378847

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jan 26 2017, 04:37 PM
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fkalich
post Jan 26 2017, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 26 2017, 09:19 AM) *
Indeed smile.gif
Attached File  LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A3.pdf ( 624.97K ) Number of downloads: 29

Attached Image


Yeah great stuff, but there is no way reason or logic will get through to Trump die hard types at this point.

Every day, another horror. Take the Mexican news item today. He will not be able to intimidate the Mexican leadership using economic threats. He has now put the Mexican leadership in a position where they can never back down, no matter what the economic consequences.

40% of Mexican imports are from the US. That involves 6 million jobs as I understand it. The looks like it is leading to beggar thy neighbor, where both sides will be hurt. There is no way the Mexican leadership can let themselves be humiliated. To do so would be political suicide. But Trump thinks he can deal with them as he did building a casino, saying take what I offer or get nothing. He is that ignorant about the realities of the political world.

Then again, this may be Bannon pulling the strings from the background, with the intention to create a "US against the world" mentality among those who support him. This is all a page from the playbook of Fascist regimes in the past. It never happened overnight. Americans think that it can't happen here. They are very naive about that. Freedoms, free elections, those only are guaranteed so long as those in power defend them. The big question is whether enough Republicans stand up to him for the good of the country as things get worse and worse, or if they just go along with him. The jury is out on that one.

A key test will be when he appoints a Supreme Court nominee, undoubtedly one so extreme that the Democrats can't accept him and filibuster. As you know the filibuster is not in the Constitutional, but it has been in place for 180 years by Senate rules. If the Republicans nuke the filibuster, that will be a clear sign that we are in deep danger of losing our Democracy, that will be a huge step in that direction.

But as I said, there is no point in trying to get his followers to see this, they will just scoff at the notion that this could be unfolding. If the filibuster is nuked, they will just say the majority vote rules, that is as far as their brains can take things, they won't see the far reaching repercussions of eliminating this rule, that removing it is another step in the direction of Authoritarian government. A big step. As I said, it never has happened overnight, always, even for Adolf Hitler, step by step.

Also, regarding fake news, misleading items that cherry pick things that they can find on Internet to support whatever position they want to support is fake news in my book as well. Currently the average favorability rating for Trump is 42%, unfavorability 49.6%. But I don't worry about that right now, Trump's ongoing propaganda machine may well increase his favorability, this is new territory, I am not sure where we are headed, in past history some leaders have maintained public approval even with conditions at home falling apart. Even late in the war as their country was being devastated Germans mostly supported the regime, the Japanese likewise. I am not counting on anything. I have steeled myself to the possibility that this may be the end for me, that I may not live 4 more years.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ot...rable-5493.html

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jstcrsn
post Jan 27 2017, 02:58 AM
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before you guys go postal, the sky isn't falling,
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klasaine
post Jan 27 2017, 05:21 AM
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I'm steeling myself to the fact that I will be paying more for Tecate, Guacamole and Jose Cuervo.
How much can a guy be expected take?

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fkalich
post Jan 27 2017, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jan 26 2017, 11:21 PM) *
I'm steeling myself to the fact that I will be paying more for Tecate, Guacamole and Jose Cuervo.
How much can a guy be expected take?


I know you are one of the good guys klasaine, but you are going to be concerned about things a lot more important than beer in short order. I am afraid that we will indeed lose much of our Democracy, because decent people just don't see it happening, they don't like what is happening now, they look on Trump as a nightmare, but still they look on this like they might have when Regan took office, like this is just a phase that will pass. By the time they do see what is happening, it may be too late. People in other countries know better, because they have seen it happen to them. Americans think that those pieces of parchment in the National Archives will always protect them.

The big item to watch is the filibuster. Trump and his followers are going to push to end that, as will many Republicans in the House. If the Senate caves in and scraps that 180 year legislative rule, our system of Government will change drastically at that stroke, we will have a form of Government much different that what we have had in our past. There is no "check or balance" more critical than the Senate filibuster.

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klasaine
post Jan 28 2017, 04:07 AM
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Trust me, I get it.
But this is a guitar forum. I'll battle where it can have an effect.
And I refuse to lose my sense of humor.


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fkalich
post Jan 28 2017, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jan 27 2017, 10:07 PM) *
Trust me, I get it.
But this is a guitar forum.


My alma mater, the University of Kansas, has a very popular sports forum. How many users at present?, let me look....4,151 on line and it is 2am in the morning. It has a football section, basketball section, other sports sections, sure. But they also have a politics section, and another called the ape room. Perhaps that is a good idea for this site, a separate politics section, and anyone who does not want to discuss politics, just don't go to the politics area.

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Todd Simpson
post Jan 28 2017, 10:04 AM
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Can anyone point out the logical fallacies that AKRICH employed to counter the arguments posed? First to try get's a Gold Star smile.gif

Sadly, most folks are suckers, which explains why such a large portion (the two thirds that lack formal education, primarily, and can't recognize logical fallacy or even be aware what a logical fallacy is) Think Trump is great! So does demagogue Alex Jones! Alex Jones, who thinks Lizard People rule the Govt. Just because a given poll states that folks like the Emperors new clothes, doesn't really mean much.

He appointed a guy as the HEAD of the Department of Energy who COULDN"T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE AGENCY HE HAS BEEN SELECTED TO RUN, during a nationally televised debate. He has a degree in Animal Husbandry. The last guy was a physicist from M.I.T.

The gal in charge of the Dept. of Education, NEVER ATTENDED A PUBLIC SCHOOL. Yet now she is supposed to run them? Based on what?

The list just keeps going. It's sadly drifting towards the "Swamp" getting deeper. Not drained. Billionaires, Bankers, etc. Somehow, Trump Masterfully, convinced the "little guy" that he actually cares. I must give it to him for being a master manipulator.

Then he tried to tell the EPA, NASA, and other admins to STOP TWEETING. While he tweets non stop.

It's taking shape as a "Strong Man" Autocracy. sad.gif

Also, now the "Wall" which was going to be paid for by Mexico, is now going to be paid for by US and then he is going to get Mexico to pay us back?

Not to mention the use of "Alternative Facts". Wow. This is now a thing. When Spicer came out and said more people watched the inauguration, than EVER have before, he was just wrong. Then kelly comes on and explains it as an "Alternative Facts". As citizens we have the responsibility to stand up and call B.S. It's simple as that IMHO.

Of course the DOW is going nuts. Trump put out an executive order saying "No more regulations". Wow. Sadly, the dow going nuts doesn't help the folks who need help the most. Poor folks are not invested in the market. They are trying to make rent and afford health care. sad.gif

The slow, grinding gutting of what was left of the middle of our country appears to have begun. The rich will get richer. The dow will climb. Everyone below the wealth gap, is pretty much stuffed. sad.gif


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jan 26 2017, 10:53 AM) *
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_con...rez_track_jan26

Thursday, January 26, 2017

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 59% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Forty-one percent (41%) disapprove.

The latest figures include 44% who Strongly Approve of the way Trump is performing and 31% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of +13

http://www.investors.com/politics/commenta...ular-president/

Attached Image

Dow bursts through 20,000, extending a rally that looked unlikely a year ago

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mark...0125-story.html

U.S. Rally Is the Envy of Stock Markets Worldwide

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-rally-is-t...wide-1485378847



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HungryForHeaven
post Jan 28 2017, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 28 2017, 07:20 AM) *
Perhaps that is a good idea for this site, a separate politics section, and anyone who does not want to discuss politics, just don't go to the politics area.

I would be all for this idea.
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Todd Simpson
post Jan 28 2017, 10:11 AM
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I sorta hate talking politics AGAIN after I swore to swear off!!! I just can't stand it though. Watching the news is making my stomach turn in knots. I agree with you FKALICH smile.gif You have a very good insight in to all of this. It does in fact seem like we are drifting towards a very scary bit of our nations history that leans toward fascism and the stain will be on us as long as it's been on japan and the Germans. That sux sad.gif

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 26 2017, 05:13 PM) *
Yeah great stuff, but there is no way reason or logic will get through to Trump die hard types at this point.

Every day, another horror. Take the Mexican news item today. He will not be able to intimidate the Mexican leadership using economic threats. He has now put the Mexican leadership in a position where they can never back down, no matter what the economic consequences.

4...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ot...rable-5493.html


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jan 28 2017, 10:15 AM


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AK Rich
post Jan 28 2017, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 28 2017, 01:04 AM) *
Can anyone point out the logical fallacies that AKRICH employed to counter the arguments posed? First to try get's a Gold Star smile.gif

Sadly, most folks are suckers, which explains why such a large portion (the two thirds that lack formal education, primarily, and can't recognize logical fallacy or even be aware what a logical fallacy is) Think Trump is great! So does demagogue Alex Jones! Alex Jones, who thinks Lizard People rule the Govt. Just because a given poll states that folks like the Emperors new clothes, doesn't really mean much.

He appointed a guy as the HEAD of the Department of Energy who COULDN"T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE AGENCY HE HAS BEEN SELECTED TO RUN, during a nationally televised debate. He has a degree in Animal Husbandry. The last guy was a physicist from M.I.T.

The gal in charge of the Dept. of Education, NEVER ATTENDED A PUBLIC SCHOOL. Yet now she is supposed to run them? Based on what?

The list just keeps going. It's sadly drifting towards the "Swamp" getting deeper. Not drained. Billionaires, Bankers, etc. Somehow, Trump Masterfully, convinced the "little guy" that he actually cares. I must give it to him for being a master manipulator.

Then he tried to tell the EPA, NASA, and other admins to STOP TWEETING. While he tweets non stop.

It's taking shape as a "Strong Man" Autocracy. sad.gif

Also, now the "Wall" which was going to be paid for by Mexico, is now going to be paid for by US and then he is going to get Mexico to pay us back?

Not to mention the use of "Alternative Facts". Wow. This is now a thing. When Spicer came out and said more people watched the inauguration, than EVER have before, he was just wrong. Then kelly comes on and explains it as an "Alternative Facts". As citizens we have the responsibility to stand up and call B.S. It's simple as that IMHO.

Of course the DOW is going nuts. Trump put out an executive order saying "No more regulations". Wow. Sadly, the dow going nuts doesn't help the folks who need help the most. Poor folks are not invested in the market. They are trying to make rent and afford health care. sad.gif

The slow, grinding gutting of what was left of the middle of our country appears to have begun. The rich will get richer. The dow will climb. Everyone below the wealth gap, is pretty much stuffed. sad.gif


The pot calling the kettle black? Looking at this list of Logical Fallacies, it seems to read as a playbook and definition of the left and the majority of the news media in this country in my view. Folks on the right do it too, make no mistake. But if it was a contest, the left are the undisputed champs. I could easily fill up an entire page with examples but I think I would rather not. I think I'll just chill. smile.gif Some of the posts made here are full of them. I would say that every political discussion we have had are full of them, and they come from both sides.
So please don't try to take some kind of intellectual high ground here when you are AT LEAST as guilty as anyone else here of employing logical fallacies.

I considered copying the list here but there are 118 examples and would take up quite a bit of space so here is a link from the University of Texas at El Paso.
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm
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fkalich
post Jan 28 2017, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 28 2017, 04:11 AM) *
I sorta hate talking politics AGAIN after I swore to swear off!!! I just can't stand it though. Watching the news is making my stomach turn in knots. I agree with you FKALICH smile.gif You have a very good insight in to all of this. It does in fact seem like we are drifting towards a very scary bit of our nations history that leans toward fascism and the stain will be on us as long as it's been on japan and the Germans. That sux sad.gif


Oh, don't swear it off. We just have to be careful to follow Kris's requirement that we keep it civil. That may require a self-imposed cooling down period, and you may just end up thinking "forget it, he is unreachable".

And this is not just an American phenomena, the disease is spreading. My hope is that this very ugly period in our history was just inevitable, sort of like an operation to remove a tumor is a nasty thing, but in the end it had to happen to cure the disease.

I was listening to a piece on NPR, Andrew Sullivan, political commentator for New Yorker Magazine, formally a British citizen who just got his US citizenship. He had been on NPR earlier last year warning of what was happening. It is worth listening to.

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/01/27/...=storiesfromnpr

Our real political threat now will be the efforts made to disenfranchise voters, very stringent voter restrictions, efforts to make it more difficult for people to vote on the national and state wide level. That is why he is making this claim of voter fraud, to try and create a national identity card that will not be simple to get for a lot of people, targeting the poorest people in society who tend to vote Democrat. They know that time is on our side, the combined numbers of non-whites, liberal minded whites, single woman are growing and their numbers are shrinking, it is only a matter of time so long as our Democracy is sustained.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Jan 28 2017, 11:46 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Jan 28 2017, 11:27 PM
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Straight away "The left". I'm not "The Left". I"m Todd smile.gif Anyhoo. Today on Holocaust Memorial Day, Trump signed an executive order BANNING those with legal visas who happen to be from a certain country and of a certain faith (Muslim). It's about as Un American as you can get. We are a country based on religious freedom. Until today. Today, we have an unconstitutional religious test for admittance to our country. It's scary and disheartening.

I'm not attempting to take high or low ground. Just giving some reference material on what journalism should be, and what Logical Fallacies are and how they are poor arguments. That's it smile.gif If we could all try to raise our game a bit and reach for the "high ground" by not making use of logical fallacies and by using journalism from sources that are double verified and follow the basic concepts of Journalistic ethics, like PEW RESEARCH for example. Or REUTERS. While NOBODY is perfect, these two organizations are, in general trustworthy. So I invite everyone to avoid logical fallacy, and focus on reliable journalistic sources.

Aside from that, Trump has really shamed the nation today IMHO. By creating a religious test for entry in to the country, he has taken a step that is simply in conflict with the basic idea of religious freedom, a core concept that underlies our entire system of governance. It's just shameful imho.

I'd like to share something again, that's written on the Statue of Liberty. I have no doubt our lady of liberty is in tears today.

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jan 28 2017, 11:49 AM) *
The pot calling the kettle black? Looking at this list of Logical Fallacies, it seems to read as a playbook and definition of the left and the majority of the news media in this country in my view. Folks on the right do it too, make no mistake. But if it was a contest, the left are the undisputed champs. I could easily fill up an entire page with examples but I think I would rather not. I think I'll just chill. smile.gif Some of the posts made here are full of them. I would say that every political discussion we have had are full of them, and they come from both sides.
So please don't try to take some kind of intellectual high ground here when you are AT LEAST as guilty as anyone else here of employing logical fallacies.

I considered copying the list here but there are 118 examples and would take up quite a bit of space so here is a link from the University of Texas at El Paso.
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm


Well said smile.gif I needed that. You are, of course, right. It's a simple matter of time before the reality of demography shifts the nation to it's new normal. What we are seeing now is the "Death Throws" of previous regime, so to speak. The same nationalist/populist fever is happening all over the world. These are tense times indeed. But we have to maintain our faith and hope in the idea of democracy. Even when the leader of the free world is playing fast and loose the fundamental values of our society.


QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 28 2017, 05:46 PM) *
Oh, don't swear it off. We just have to be careful to follow Kris's requirement that we keep it civil. That may require a self-.., it is only a matter of time so long as our Democracy is sustained.



This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jan 28 2017, 11:21 PM


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fkalich
post Jan 29 2017, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 28 2017, 05:27 PM) *
Well said smile.gif I needed that. You are, of course, right. It's a simple matter of time before the reality of demography shifts the nation to it's new normal. What we are seeing now is the "Death Throws" of previous regime, so to speak. The same nationalist/populist fever is happening all over the world. These are tense times indeed. But we have to maintain our faith and hope in the idea of democracy. Even when the leader of the free world is playing fast and loose the fundamental values of our society.


The anti-immigrant move is right up there with going after Jews as a national threat to Germany in the 1930's. If anything is just made the world more dangerous for us. But safety was not the intent, the intent was to focus the attention of his supporters on a red herring, right out of the fascist play book.


Yeah, but we have a bigger problem. There are some that dispute this, but from my observation of him, I concur with with the diagnosis below.

Below is from U.S. News...

John D. Gartner, a practicing psychotherapist who taught psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, minces as few words as the president in his professional assessment of Trump.

"Donald Trump is dangerously mentally ill and temperamentally incapable of being president," says Gartner, author of "In Search of Bill Clinton: A Psychological Biography." Trump, Gartner says, has "malignant narcissism," which is different from narcissistic personality disorder and which is incurable.

Gartner acknowledges that he has not personally examined Trump, but says it's obvious from Trump's behavior that he meets the diagnostic criteria for the disorder, which include anti-social behavior, sadism, aggressiveness, paranoia and grandiosity. Trump's personality disorder (which includes hypomania) is also displayed through a lack of impulse control and empathy, and "a feeling that people ... don't recognize their greatness.

"We've seen enough public behavior by Donald Trump now that we can make this diagnosis indisputably," says Gartner. His comments run afoul of the so-called Goldwater Rule, the informal term for part of the ethics code of the American Psychiatric Association saying it is wrong to provide a professional opinion of a public figure without examining that person and gaining consent to discuss the evaluation. But Gartner says the Trump case warrants breaking that ethical code.
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