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jstcrsn
post Mar 31 2017, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Mar 30 2017, 09:33 PM) *
Things doesn't look good for Trump it seems, I wouldn't be surprised in USA waged war somewhere soon.

This is a pretty big accusation , open ended , vague . Specifics would do this conversation more justice IMO wink.gif

P.S. especially when the opposing political party was pushing for war with Syria/ Russia
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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 31 2017, 12:30 PM) *
This is a pretty big accusation , open ended , vague . Specifics would do this conversation more justice IMO wink.gif


It's no accusation, it's just speculation. It's a well known fact presidents get better approval/support from the people in times of war/terror.

Since Trump's support is lower every week - one could argue war would be a possible move. I certainly hope I am wrong though, hopefully this is not something he is interested in pursuing.


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klasaine
post Mar 31 2017, 03:04 PM
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Mertay and Kristofer illustrate my point perfectly.
Regardless of whether it will happen or not (a new war), this is how most of the rest of the world feels they have to deal with us. Scared and wary of us most of the time.
The President by himself can't 'declare war'. He must get the consent of congress. He can order a response in the case of an emergency i.e., Pearl Harbor or 911.
I don't think right now that either the American people or the congress have the stomach for another conflict. At this point he doesn't really have congress on his side.
We're perfectly happy fighting our proxy war against Iran over in Syria and continuing to battle Isis in Iraq.



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AK Rich
post Mar 31 2017, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 04:22 AM) *
It's no accusation, it's just speculation. It's a well known fact presidents get better approval/support from the people in times of war/terror.

Since Trump's support is lower every week - one could argue war would be a possible move. I certainly hope I am wrong though, hopefully this is not something he is interested in pursuing.

Wild speculation I would say. Is it any wonder Trump's approval ratings are bad when the majority of the media has waged war on him? No-one is going to war unless we are attacked. Ken is correct in my view in saying that the American people and Congress are not in any hurry to stomach another war.
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AK Rich
post Mar 31 2017, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 30 2017, 08:02 AM) *
Other than flying jets into buildings (though plenty of conspiracy folks think we actually did it to ourselves ie., 911 ), the "barbaric" other side thinks and says the exact same things about us. Not too mention the not so barbaric south/central america and southeast asia.

I personally don't agree with their view but it is all really a matter of perspective.

Throughout most of the world, the US is at best regarded as the 300 lb. gorilla. A scary 300 lb. gorilla.
We are seen as big, rich, super powerful and enigmatic - but also impetuous, bullying and clumsy.

Travel. Observe.

Of course the barbarians believe that, so what? Who gives a damn? I sure don't. We know what they are.
You could translate your next statement to meaning respected and feared, and some will think poorly of us. That's how it goes when you are the biggest and baddest gorilla on the block, it goes with the territory. I have never been too concerned about what other people think of me because I know that I do right by myself and others and I sleep well at night because of that. I am not going to change anything just to make someone who doesn't agree with me happy. Nor should the USA. If someone doesn't like that , well that's just tough shit.
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Mertay
post Mar 31 2017, 04:55 PM
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If I were American, I'd probably vote for Trump as I see Hillary responcible for all the blood in middle east. I'm probably the most affected by that war in this forum.

Mine is just a guess I wish won't happen, but Trump is so much like our leader here its not funny. When a coalition was expected to emerge from the last election, he burned the bridges from a terrorist organisation (pkk, been fighting for more than 40 years) as there were only days away to making peace. Soon later in the middle of chaos we went for another election and he won again...I call this abuse of nationalist feelings.

Trump as a politician gains strength from popularism not ideology, thats what such politicians do. Doesn't have to be war but keep their voters high on a feeling of fighting with national problems.

...and erdogan also made his daugther his advisor, she quit after getting married and her husband is the new minister of energy cool.gif

In 2 weeks we'll vote a few constitution laws which if accepted will give ultimate power to the president. If it passed pretty much goodbye for democracy in Turkey sad.gif

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Todd Simpson
post Mar 31 2017, 05:32 PM
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After the passing of the PATRIOT ACT (not blaming trump for that, just saying) and with the recent news that all of our browsing history is now available to highest bidder, privacy is truly dead. The govt is selling us out. The forever war is already here. Welcome to George Orwell's nightmare made real.
This is why the Orange King Must Fall.

Good news smile.gif His former defense guy Michael kelly has asked for IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION in order to tell everything he knows. He registered as s foreign agent with the dept of justtice and for MERTARY, just to know, he took half a million dollars to represent the interests of Turkey during the Campaign. There is dirty money all over this administration and it's going to come out when Michale Kelly gets to testify. I can't wait. I hope they crucify all the guilty and put it on FOX news.



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 30 2017, 10:14 AM) *
You know that is almost the exact wording that Alex Jones used to use to describe the war on terror during the Bush admin.
What would you call a war with an enemy that represents no country? War against an idea?
Idea's don't fly jets into buildings or seek to get their way through violence and intimidation and murder those who do not agree and will not comply with their barbaric ideals. Piss poor excuses for people that happen to be called terrorists do.
In my view, 1984 describes the grim reality of a liberal utopia where there is no such thing as individuality and gov controls everything with absolute power.


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klasaine
post Mar 31 2017, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 08:29 AM) *
Of course the barbarians believe that, so what? Who gives a damn? I sure don't. We know what they are.
You could translate your next statement to meaning respected and feared, and some will think poorly of us. That's how it goes when you are the biggest and baddest gorilla on the block, it goes with the territory. I have never been too concerned about what other people think of me because I know that I do right by myself and others and I sleep well at night because of that. I am not going to change anything just to make someone who doesn't agree with me happy. Nor should the USA. If someone doesn't like that , well that's just tough shit.


Feared yes, respected ... not so much anymore.
Your own slightly aggressive and defensive response is exactly why and again illustrating my point perfectly.
So much of the rest of the world, our allies included, see us as constantly just saying "Fuck you" to the rest of the planet all the time.
It's one thing to be the strongest kid on the block, it's quite another to be the biggest asshole on the block.

Most people around the world like Americans individually and also generally like the 'idea' of America. Part of that 'American ideal' and one that I personally feel is our strongest potential aspect and trait, is that we can be the biggest and baddest w/o having to act like a clumsy, spoiled child.

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Rammikin
post Mar 31 2017, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 30 2017, 04:02 PM) *
Other than flying jets into buildings, the "barbaric" other side thinks and says the exact same things about us.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655




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AK Rich
post Mar 31 2017, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 31 2017, 08:32 AM) *
After the passing of the PATRIOT ACT (not blaming trump for that, just saying) and with the recent news that all of our browsing history is now available to highest bidder, privacy is truly dead. The govt is selling us out. The forever war is already here. Welcome to George Orwell's nightmare made real.
This is why the Orange King Must Fall.

Good news smile.gif His former defense guy Michael kelly has asked for IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION in order to tell everything he knows. He registered as s foreign agent with the dept of justtice and for MERTARY, just to know, he took half a million dollars to represent the interests of Turkey during the Campaign. There is dirty money all over this administration and it's going to come out when Michale Kelly gets to testify. I can't wait. I hope they crucify all the guilty and put it on FOX news.


You do realize that the Dems embraced and expanded on the Patriot act once they got into power right? They didn't allow it to sunset or dilute it in the least and have used it to spy on the populace, members of the media and the Senate. Which is contrary to what those on the left expected would happen. When Gore ran for office, everyone on the left was saying how he would do away with the Patriot act. I called bs and predicted that if the Dems came back into power that they would do exactly what they have done.

Who is Michael kelly? You mean Flynn? He is asking for the same thing that just about everyone who testified about Clinton asked for. The fact is that this is common practice. His offer of testimony for immunity has been turned down at least for the time being. I don't think that Democrats really want him to testify because he would hammer them in his testimony.

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Todd Simpson
post Mar 31 2017, 06:22 PM
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AK RICH: You seem to be under the impression I'm a democrat. I"M NOT A DEMOCRAT They are as guilty as the rest. Don't think I am some sort of fan of their policies. They to have contributed to the forever war so please, please understand I'm NOT A DEMOCRAT nor do I support them. So yeah, I know they supported the patriot act. As I mentioned, I was not blaming trump or republicans. I blame Government. They have both contributed to the forever war. I am not affiliated with any political party. I have renounced even the Libertarians as their platform has embraced a bit of insanity, including giving guns to people with Mental Illness. I'm simply a citizen. A member of the rebel faction if you like. Bordering on anarchist at this point, as i seem Govt. Failing us. The forever war is here. The Guilty should be drawn and quartered. Michael Flyns (typo, not kelly, sorry about that, typing to fast) testimony will hopefully start the bloodletting that we need. He wants to talk, to tell the truth. I can't wait to hear it. The Orange King Must Fall.



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 12:51 PM) *
You do realize that the Dems embraced and expanded on the Patriot act once they got into power right? They didn't allow it to sunset or dilute it in the least and have used it to spy on the populace, members of the media and the Senate. Which is contrary to what those on the left expected would happen. When Gore ran for office, everyone on the left was saying how he would do away with the Patriot act. I called bs and predicted that if the Dems came back into power that they would do exactly what they have done.

Who is Michael kelly? You mean Flynn? He is asking for the same thing that just about everyone who testified about Clinton asked for. The fact is that this is common practice. His offer of testimony for immunity has been turned down at least for the time being. I don't think that Democrats really want him to testify because he would hammer them in his testimony.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Mar 31 2017, 06:24 PM


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AK Rich
post Mar 31 2017, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 31 2017, 08:33 AM) *
Feared yes, respected ... not so much anymore.
Your own slightly aggressive and defensive response is exactly why and again illustrating my point perfectly.
So much of the rest of the world, our allies included, see us as constantly just saying "Fuck you" to the rest of the planet all the time.
It's one thing to be the strongest kid on the block, it's quite another to be the biggest asshole on the block.

Most people around the world like Americans individually and also generally like the 'idea' of America. Part of that 'American ideal' and one that I personally feel is our strongest potential aspect and trait, is that we can be the biggest and baddest w/o having to act like a clumsy, spoiled child.


Because a lot the rest of the world seems to think that we owe them something, they seem to think our wealth should be redistributed amongst them even though we give away far more than any other nation, or because we don't embrace a form of Socialism that is a baby step away from a hybrid form of Communism/Fascism.
Some want us to abandon Free Market Capitalism and adapt a form of gov like some of their own countries that has their tentacles into everything.
A big part of the reason is simply because we can't be fully controlled and manipulated into embracing ideas that would go against our own best interests and the principles that this nation was founded on. Of course there are legitimate concerns about the USA just like any other nation but there is just no way to please everyone.
The top dogs in whatever you look at are always both loved and hated, c'est la vie.

Getting back to the threat of terrorism. It pales in comparison to the threat we face right here in our own country. In my view and many others, the biggest threat to freedom and democracy in this country is the Democrat party which is now, in my view, the Socialist/Fascist party and is largely unamerican and even America hating in some cases.

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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 04:00 PM) *
Wild speculation I would say. Is it any wonder Trump's approval ratings are bad when the majority of the media has waged war on him? No-one is going to war unless we are attacked. Ken is correct in my view in saying that the American people and Congress are not in any hurry to stomach another war.


After these two months you blame the media for his bad ratings? You start to sound like...Trump himself! Have you missed that Trump has not accomplished anything worth mentioning so far? And that he has clearly shown that he does not intend to stick to his promises and that he happily will let his fan base down.

Or is all of this somehow also the medias fault? You do realise that it lies in both yours and my interest to not undermine the free press?


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AK Rich
post Mar 31 2017, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 31 2017, 09:22 AM) *
AK RICH: You seem to be under the impression I'm a democrat. I"M NOT A DEMOCRAT They are as guilty as the rest. Don't think I am some sort of fan of their policies. They to have contributed to the forever war so please, please understand I'm NOT A DEMOCRAT nor do I support them. So yeah, I know they supported the patriot act. As I mentioned, I was not blaming trump or republicans. I blame Government. They have both contributed to the forever war. I am not affiliated with any political party. I have renounced even the Libertarians as their platform has embraced a bit of insanity, including giving guns to people with Mental Illness. I'm simply a citizen. A member of the rebel faction if you like. Bordering on anarchist at this point, as i seem Govt. Failing us. The forever war is here. The Guilty should be drawn and quartered. Michael Flyns (typo, not kelly, sorry about that, typing to fast) testimony will hopefully start the bloodletting that we need. He wants to talk, to tell the truth. I can't wait to hear it. The Orange King Must Fall.

No, I am under the impression based on things you have posted that you are a progressive or yeah, an anarchist, which is worse than a Democrat in my view. You have claimed to be a Libertarian in the past but I just don't see it as your views seem to be inconsistent with that.
Don't get me wrong. I think you are an alright guy, just misguided, which I assume is the same you believe of me.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 10:21 AM) *
After these two months you blame the media for his bad ratings? You start to sound like...Trump himself! Have you missed that Trump has not accomplished anything worth mentioning so far? And that he has clearly shown that he does not intend to stick to his promises and that he happily will let his fan base down.

Or is all of this somehow also the medias fault? You do realise that it lies in both yours and my interest to not undermine the free press?

Having said yourself that you have just begun to get into American politics and the media reports in this country, I can't expect you to understand what it is I am talking about, but there is no question as to the bias to the left the vast majority of the media has in this country. There has been a constant drip of bad press since the election and so far it is all speculation with no real substance.
As I said before, I have issues with Trump as well and he certainly has said some stupid shit at times. But at the same time he is certainly not getting a fair shake in the media. The media in this country is the Praetorian Guard for the left pure and simple, they don't even try to hide it anymore. There were far worse scandals during the Obama admin that the media simply would not report on and if they did report on them, it was generally to explain them away.
You have talked about alleged lies from Sessions. But the biggest lies ever told to the American people in recent years came from Obama and Democrats concerning the ACA. These are confirmed lies. Lies that resulted in the biggest takeover of the private sector and the economy this country has ever seen. This was something that never had support from half of the country and was passed without the people being able to see it first after we were promised that we would.

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Todd Simpson
post Mar 31 2017, 08:09 PM
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Rich's post here encapsulates the division we face in our country. There are about 40 percent of the country who will follow the Orange King to the Road to Hell, just as the Germans Followed Hitler down the same road, no matter what happened, no matter what was said. They can't be swayed. They are simply brainwashed IMHO. I have managed to resist this, along with about half the country. The resistance, as it were. Will not succumb to right or left wing propaganda. We will remain a thorn in the side of the administration, until better minds prevail. #refuse_resist



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 02:49 PM) *
No, I am under the impression based on things you have posted that you are a progressive or yeah, an anarchist, which is worse than a Democrat in my view. You have claimed to be a Libertarian in the past but I just don't see it as your views seem to be inconsistent with that.
Don't get me wrong. I think you are an alright guy, just misguided, which I assume is the same you believe of me.


Having said yourself that you have just begun to get into American politics and the media reports in this country, I can't expect you to understand what it is I am talking about, but there is no question as to the bias to the left the vast majority of the media has in this country. There has been a constant drip of bad press since the election and so far it is all speculation with no real substance.
As I said before, I have issues with Trump as well and he certainly has said some stupid shit at times. But at the same time he is certainly not getting a fair shake in the media. The media in this country is the Praetorian Guard for the left pure and simple, they don't even try to hide it anymore. There were far worse scandals during the Obama admin that the media simply would not report on and if they did report on them, it was generally to explain them away.
You have talked about alleged lies from Sessions. But the biggest lies ever told to the American people in recent years came from Obama and Democrats concerning the ACA. These are confirmed lies. Lies that resulted in the biggest takeover of the private sector and the economy this country has ever seen. This was something that never had support from half of the country and was passed without the people being able to see it first after we were promised that we would.


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klasaine
post Mar 31 2017, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 11:17 AM) *
Because a lot the rest of the world seems to think that we owe them something, they seem to think our wealth should be redistributed amongst them even though we give away far more than any other nation, or because we don't embrace a form of Socialism that is a baby step away from a hybrid form of Communism/Fascism.
Some want us to abandon Free Market Capitalism and adapt a form of gov like some of their own countries that has their tentacles into everything.


No, they don't Rich.
In general, they do not, either as individual citizens or as sovereign nations think that we owe them something/anything. In fact the 'perception' - and I want to emphasize perception - is quite the opposite. Their perception, due to the rhetoric of EVERY administration since FDR, is that (in american eyes) they will never ever be able to repay us for saving them from the Axis powers. And by extension that we, the USA has carte blanche over world policy.

But we've fucked up a lot since WWII.
Korea, Viet Nam, Central America, Iraq - these were not very successful endeavors. I perfectly understand why we involved ourselves. I even agree with a lot of the reasons. But unfortunately, we caused more harm and damage than we helped and fixed. A lot of that damage was/is to ourselves in reputation and honor.

Don't get me wrong, I am by no means a sycophantic US apologist. We are a big, diverse, complex, confusing and still to some degree, by necessity, an imperialistic nation. Folks from other countries have a hard time truly understanding this place until they hang out here for a while. Conversely, Americans don't really 'get' the rest of the world until they have to engage with it. Club Med, a cruise or a 2 week trip to the elegant capital cities doesn't count - you're just a tourist spending money. A commodity. This is true from both sides.
I'm lucky. I have traveled a lot. For work when I was younger and didn't have a family and now because my wife's entire family lives in Italy. I go every year for more than a month and I hang out with 'the people'. I/we have friends there. I speak the language a bit. I go out drinking with the guys. I'll do a few gigs on some trips. I am not a tourist anymore. I get a whole other perspective. I'm just relating what I know first hand. *In actuality, we, the US, doesn't really factor into their daily life at all. Regardless of what we think and what we think the rest of the world thinks - we are not the center of the world.

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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 31 2017, 08:09 PM) *
There are about 40 percent of the country who will follow the Orange King to the Road to Hell,


For the sake of keeping these discussions in the open, please stay more factual - especially considering you know describing Trump this way upsets some members.

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 07:49 PM) *
No, I am under the impression based on things you have posted that you are a progressive or yeah, an anarchist, which is worse than a Democrat in my view. You have claimed to be a Libertarian in the past but I just don't see it as your views seem to be inconsistent with that.
Don't get me wrong. I think you are an alright guy, just misguided, which I assume is the same you believe of me.


This post is also borderline. Rich, if you feel you need to add "Don't get me wrong" - you might want to go through your post a second time to make sure you stay away from personal attacks. It seems to me this post might have triggered Todds reply, which again makes factual discussions harder.


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jstcrsn
post Mar 31 2017, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 01:22 PM) *
It's no accusation, it's just speculation. It's a well known fact presidents get better approval/support from the people in times of war/terror.

Since Trump's support is lower every week - one could argue war would be a possible move. I certainly hope I am wrong though, hopefully this is not something he is interested in pursuing.

sensible or speculative/accusation theory thread ?
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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 31 2017, 07:49 PM) *
Having said yourself that you have just begun to get into American politics and the media reports in this country, I can't expect you to understand what it is I am talking about, but there is no question as to the bias to the left the vast majority of the media has in this country. There has been a constant drip of bad press since the election and so far it is all speculation with no real substance.
As I said before, I have issues with Trump as well and he certainly has said some stupid shit at times. But at the same time he is certainly not getting a fair shake in the media. The media in this country is the Praetorian Guard for the left pure and simple, they don't even try to hide it anymore. There were far worse scandals during the Obama admin that the media simply would not report on and if they did report on them, it was generally to explain them away.
You have talked about alleged lies from Sessions. But the biggest lies ever told to the American people in recent years came from Obama and Democrats concerning the ACA. These are confirmed lies. Lies that resulted in the biggest takeover of the private sector and the economy this country has ever seen. This was something that never had support from half of the country and was passed without the people being able to see it first after we were promised that we would.


Implying I have less understanding than you is by no means an argument. If you believe your understanding is superior than mine then please explain why it is relevant to compare recent events with the insertion of one of the biggest US welfare reforms ever (ACA). Or are you against welfare?

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 31 2017, 08:39 PM) *
sensible or speculative/accusation theory thread ?

perhaps - but without copy & paste wink.gif


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jstcrsn
post Mar 31 2017, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 08:35 PM) *
For the sake of keeping these discussions in the open, please stay more factual - especially considering you know describing Trump this way upsets some members.

I hope it is not me you are worried about , I could care less , the problem is, Is this how he feels and how can this Ideology ever be fair or non- biased ? To me it feels that there is so much hatred for the man , things can't be put in the right perspective

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 08:42 PM) *
perhaps - but without copy & paste wink.gif

yes , but just think of all the fun we are missing out on
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