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Rammikin
post Mar 31 2017, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 07:42 PM) *
why it is relevant to compare recent events with the insertion of one of the biggest US welfare reforms ever (ACA).


Just so you know, the ACA enjoys high levels of support in public polls in the US, and for good reason. The ability to switch plans without regard for pre-existing conditions and forcing the insurers to disclose information about their plans means, for the first time in our lifetimes, there is a free market in this country for health insurance. For the first time ever, the beneficial effect of an open marketplace ensures competition among sellers and choice for buyers.

Dissenters tend to dislike the mandate to purchase insurance, but that's based on the fallacy that it's possible to opt-out of the health system. The supreme court observed that's not possible. When you're in a car accident, you'll be taken to the hospital. At that point you either have insurance or the insurance-carrying members of the public will have to pay for your care.

And dissenters like to quote Obama when he said you could keep your health care. But that's admitting that you needed him to explain to you things like: if your doctor dies, you will have to change doctors. Or, if your health insurer makes changes to your insurance plan, those changes might affect you. At the time, nobody thought it was necessary to explain such things.



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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 31 2017, 08:49 PM) *
I hope it is not me you are worried about , I could care less , the problem is, Is this how he feels and how can this Ideology ever be fair or non- biased ? To me it feels that there is so much hatred for the man , things can't be put in the right perspective


I can certainly understand why there would be widespread hate against Trump. To me - the worst 'proven' thing he has done so far - is to promise healthcare for everybody, and then present a bill in which up to 24 millions Americans would loose their health care. That alone is completely unforgivable from my perspective. If the bill had passed like it was - he would effectively have killed a big portion of his voters (over time).


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 31 2017, 08:49 PM) *
yes , but just think of all the fun we are missing out on


hehe you might be right ph34r.gif I do think these threads are kind of fun even without them though!

QUOTE (Rammikin @ Mar 31 2017, 09:45 PM) *
Just so you know, the ACA enjoys high levels of support in public polls in the US, and for good reason.


That is a relief - in other words many of you know your own best smile.gif


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jstcrsn
post Mar 31 2017, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 09:53 PM) *
That is a relief - in other words many of you know your own best smile.gif

First off let me state I am glad this failed in congress recently , but @ 2:20 bernie clearly outlines Why ACA in failinging , and it's CNN

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Mar 31 2017, 10:58 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Apr 1 2017, 03:22 AM
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I apologize. I should have said, 40 percent of the country will follow Trump no matter what he does, says, doesn't say, doesn't do etc. They are simply going to follow him no matter what. This is what I find so dangerous. Hope that's better smile.gif

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 03:35 PM) *
For the sake of keeping these discussions in the open, please stay more factual - especially considering you know describing Trump this way upsets some members.

This post is also borderline. Rich, if you feel you need to add "Don't get me wrong" - you might want to go through your post a second time to make sure you stay away from personal attacks. It seems to me this post might have triggered Todds reply, which again makes factual discussions harder.


That's an example of what I was talking about. If the GOP health bill would have passed 24 million folks, many of who were Trump Voters, would lose all medical coverage in the coming years. So despite the fact they will be kicked off their health plans they are still "GO TRUMP!" and all. IT seems to defy logic doesn't it? At least it does to me. To embrace someone who is actively trying to hurt the very people who voted him in to office with the help of some 15,000 russian hackers as we found out today, who were posting fake news on social media and who are now showing up dead all over Russia.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 04:53 PM) *
I can certainly understand why there would be widespread hate against Trump. To me - the worst 'proven' thing he has done so far - is to promise healthcare for everybody, and then present a bill in which up to 24 millions Americans would loose their health care. That alone is completely unforgivable from my perspective. If the bill had passed like it was - he would effectively have killed a big portion of his voters (over time).




hehe you might be right ph34r.gif I do think these threads are kind of fun even without them though!



That is a relief - in other words many of you know your own best smile.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 1 2017, 03:23 AM


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AK Rich
post Apr 1 2017, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 31 2017, 11:23 AM) *
No, they don't Rich.
In general, they do not, either as individual citizens or as sovereign nations think that we owe them something/anything. In fact the 'perception' - and I want to emphasize perception - is quite the opposite. Their perception, due to the rhetoric of EVERY administration since FDR, is that (in american eyes) they will never ever be able to repay us for saving them from the Axis powers. And by extension that we, the USA has carte blanche over world policy.

In general, I agree with that. Maybe instead of saying a lot of nations I should have said some. Because the perception I have described certainly does exist in some corners of the world by no fault of the people within those countries. It is something they have been conditioned to believe by their governments. And there have been statements made suggesting what I have described coming from unelected officials within the UN in the past as well.

I also agree that it is good to travel to other nations to get a good perspective of the people there but it isn't necessary when you live at an international crossroads like we both do. Living at an international crossroads gives me the opportunity to meet, talk with, and befriend folks from all over the world as I have, not just with tourists from other nations but also folks who have immigrated here. You might be surprised by the number of folks you can meet from other nations just by going fishing down on the Kenai peninsula which is a world class sport fishing destination for people all over the world. If you share with a fisherman your secret honey hole and some fishing tips you can make a friend for life. biggrin.gif I have neighbors that I have mentioned here in the past that immigrated here from Guatemala and that I have become good friends with over the years and talk quite frequently with about politics, world events and any number of things. So it's not like I don't have any real perspective of what people from other nations think and believe. And to be clear, I don't think you were implying that I did not have a good perspective just because I haven't traveled the world as much as you have.



QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 11:35 AM) *
This post is also borderline. Rich, if you feel you need to add "Don't get me wrong" - you might want to go through your post a second time to make sure you stay away from personal attacks. It seems to me this post might have triggered Todds reply, which again makes factual discussions harder.

I don't think I have made a personal attack. I was simply correcting what Todd thought that I might believe about his political position and I could be wrong but I don't think that even offended him. I don't believe the use of his new nickname for Trump was a response that was provoked by myself. I believe it is simply his new nickname for Trump and it doesn't bother me in the least.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 11:42 AM) *
Implying I have less understanding than you is by no means an argument. If you believe your understanding is superior than mine then please explain why it is relevant to compare recent events with the insertion of one of the biggest US welfare reforms ever (ACA). Or are you against welfare?

Why not? It was an argument for you in response to jstcrsn's post concerning immigrants in your country, right? There is no question that my understanding of US politics is superior to yours just as your understanding of what is happening in your country is superior to jstcrsn's, And Mertay's understanding of what is going on in Turkey is superior to anyone who is not there too, Right? So it certainly is an argument since I have followed US politics for most of my adult life (I am 50) and you have not as far as I can tell.

My comparison of alleged lies vs actual lies was off topic from the rest of the post and was in reference to things we were talking about in some previous posts. It is relevant because it shows the hypocrisy of some positions held here in this thread. There are some folks talking about how they disagreed with this or that from the last admin that we never heard a whimper about when the previous admin held the Presidency even though those issues were discussed quite a bit here at the time.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 31 2017, 06:22 PM) *
I apologize. I should have said, 40 percent of the country will follow Trump no matter what he does, says, doesn't say, doesn't do etc. They are simply going to follow him no matter what. This is what I find so dangerous. Hope that's better smile.gif

That's an example of what I was talking about. If the GOP health bill would have passed 24 million folks, many of who were Trump Voters, would lose all medical coverage in the coming years. So despite the fact they will be kicked off their health plans they are still "GO TRUMP!" and all. IT seems to defy logic doesn't it? At least it does to me. To embrace someone who is actively trying to hurt the very people who voted him in to office with the help of some 15,000 russian hackers as we found out today, who were posting fake news on social media and who are now showing up dead all over Russia.

First off there is no need to apologize to me about your nickname for Trump, I could care less and maybe it wasn't me but Kris you were making that apology to, I don't know. At any rate , it's no skin off my back.

40% of the country will not follow Trump no matter what he does. I believe that if that healthcare bill would have passed it could have meant some big losses for republicans in the midterm elections unless the RINO's are replaced by true conservatives. Conservatives like myself will abandon him if he tries to push through a healthcare bill that is Obamacare light.

That 24 million number is not based in hard sign up numbers but instead is based on survey data and is not accurate for a number of reasons. I believe as do many others, the actual numbers to be maybe half of that 24 mil number and quite possibly even less than that. Moving folks to Medicaid doesn't count. And a significant number of those would have qualified for Medicaid anyway (maybe up to 7 mil) without the ACA according to Jonathan Gruber who was one of the architects of the ACA.
Furthermore, moving all these folks to Medicaid doesn't guarantee coverage since an increasing amount of doctors aren't accepting it. For a good number of folks that Medicaid card is worthless.

We don't hear a lot of bad news about the ACA in the media like the fact that probably half a million disabled people with developmental disabilities to traumatic brain injuries are on a waitlist for care due to the expansion of Medicaid. And many of those on the waitlists are there because the ACA gives states more money to enroll able-bodied adults than it does to take care of disabled children and adults who qualified for Medicaid prior to the ACA.

New data also shows that in 70% of counties across the country people have only one or two choices for insurers. The entire state of Alaska where I live has only one.

And then there are the millions of people who have lost their doctors and health insurance plans that they liked and now have to pay higher premiums for less coverage, so the quality and choices in healthcare coverage have declined due to the ACA. All of which were things that we were lied to about in order to sell this lemon to us which the majority of people never bought into in the first place.

Also it should be noted that the ACA doesn't seem to be good enough for members of Congress who are exempt, so why should it be good enough for the masses?

I see no need to replace the ACA with anything. Simply repeal it and change some rules about purchasing insurance over state lines and an introduction to healthcare savings accounts, and to address the things that could actually bring down the actual cost of healthcare which the ACA did not do at all.

I could go on but I got things to do and I am growing weary of this discussion anyway but I am sure there will be some claims made that I won't be able to resist countering. smile.gif
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jstcrsn
post Apr 1 2017, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 1 2017, 03:22 AM) *
I apologize. I should have said, 40 percent of the country will follow Trump no matter what he does, says, doesn't say, doesn't do etc. They are simply going to follow him no matter what. This is what I find so dangerous. Hope that's better smile.gif



That's an example of what I was talking about. If the GOP health bill would have passed 24 million folks, many of who were Trump Voters, would lose all medical coverage in the coming years. So despite the fact they will be kicked off their health plans they are still "GO TRUMP!" and all. IT seems to defy logic doesn't it? At least it does to me. To embrace someone who is actively trying to hurt the very people who voted him in to office with the help of some 15,000 russian hackers as we found out today, who were posting fake news on social media and who are now showing up dead all over Russia.

First , this wasn"t trumps plan , that's why m any people called it ryancare and in the first section of this thread I said I didn't think it would pass.

Obamacare is Failing , period! and I am glad they didn't pass this until Obamacare explodes
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Todd Simpson
post Apr 1 2017, 10:54 PM
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Looks like we are going to let it "explode" as Trump said smile.gif But according to the folks in the town hall meetings, they don't want it to go anywhere so it's not going anywhere since despite a purely republican house/senate/executive, this new health bill was so awful that not even the GOP could get it passed. It was that bad. So there ya go. To bad to pass when Republicans have full control in house/senate/exeuciive, all of it. If they can't pass it then, they are done. So he is moving on to taxes thank God. Whew! So we get to keep our health care.

As for me being offended, I'm rarely offended by anything. I don't really know when to be offended to be honest, so I usually just keep trying to explain myself. So it's all good smile.gif


Todd

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 1 2017, 05:41 PM) *
First , this wasn"t trumps plan , that's why m any people called it ryancare and in the first section of this thread I said I didn't think it would pass.

Obamacare is Failing , period! and I am glad they didn't pass this until Obamacare explodes



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Rammikin
post Apr 2 2017, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2017, 08:53 PM) *
That is a relief - in other words many of you know your own best smile.gif


Yes, by approving of the ACA in polls, you could say the US public is on the right side of history in this situation. As I described above, it's been a significant step forward. The person above who posted the Bernie Sanders video is advocating single payer health insurance, and that has its advantages. But, one step at a time.



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Todd Simpson
post Apr 2 2017, 01:43 AM
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I must agree smile.gif I also think the single payer system is the only long term solution. Sadly, there is a storm of propaganda that insists it's the road to complete destructions. Seems to be doing fine in many other countries. I think we could take care of our own without price gouging and putting folks in the poor house just for the crime of getting sick. But this is the exact opposite of what many of the other side have been fed through various media outlets. So we get caught stuck in the middle. The good news is that at least the ACA is still with us and millions of folks are not going to get kicked off their insurance, and pre existing conditions are still protected. smile.gif

QUOTE (Rammikin @ Apr 1 2017, 08:08 PM) *
Yes, by approving of the ACA in polls, you could say the US public is on the right side of history in this situation. As I described above, it's been a significant step forward. The person above who posted the Bernie Sanders video is advocating single payer health insurance, and that has its advantages. But, one step at a time.



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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 2 2017, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 1 2017, 08:17 PM) *
Why not? It was an argument for you in response to jstcrsn's post concerning immigrants in your country, right? There is no question that my understanding of US politics is superior to yours just as your understanding of what is happening in your country is superior to jstcrsn's, And Mertay's understanding of what is going on in Turkey is superior to anyone who is not there too, Right? So it certainly is an argument since I have followed US politics for most of my adult life (I am 50) and you have not as far as I can tell.


If we all started to apply these rules of logic, our discussions would quickly get interesting! Fictive example reply:

* Since I live in Sweden I can provide a more objective and non-partisan perspective on the situation in your country. So my opinion is less colored and therefore more correct. Furthermore I have been abiding by the rules of logic my entire life (I am 35) and you have not as far as I can tell. There is no further need for me to defend my standpoint.

If I posted the above sincerely I would probably moderate myself out of the discussion.

So if you need to use such logical fallacies to defend your statement about ACA being associated with the biggest lies in US history, it seems to me you are running out of valid arguments.

And let's face it - how could a bill that finally helped people get health care, be so incredibly negative?


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klasaine
post Apr 2 2017, 03:50 PM
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The ACA or Obama Care is certainly not perfect. I feel he should have pushed harder for the public option. Cest la vie.
What we have is guaranteed insurance, not guaranteed health care. Because it is essentially a 'private' insurance based system, it can be extremely complicated and confusing to navigate. When my family was insured under it (via Anthem) we certainly had our share of confusion and frustrations. I will say though that through perseverance, a lot of phone calls and research we were able to deal positively and effectively with the issues we encountered. Also, California being one of the states that prepared very early for the coming mandate, there was and still is a ton of info and even offices set up to help you - free of charge.

For reasons too numerous to get into here many states did not get completely on board with Obamacare, mainly due to the cost of transitioning and contentions regarding certain points of legislation. Several lawsuits were launched against the ACA, some of which are still ongoing and some have been settled by Supreme Court and lower court rulings. In the US you can hold some things up in court almost indefinitely.

Individual states cannot completely opt out of Obamacare but there were certain aspects of the law they can opt out of, or at least can have delayed. For example, every state was/is required to offer a health insurance exchange for residents through which they can enroll. When Obamacare was enacted, every state was offered federal assistance and MONEY in setting up these exchanges. Many took the assistance and set up their own state-run exchanges. Some partnered with other states in order to reduce the cost and effort involved. Others opted out. Their populous had to rely solely on the fed exchange with no in state help - even to just figure how to sign up. That, coupled with a faulty and unwieldy federal ACA web site caused huge problems, confusion and delays. States that set up their own exchanges had few issues. States that started setting up their own exchanges early and allowed federal help (and MONEY) had almost zero issues (CA being one of those).

This doesn’t mean they didn’t have to adopt state health insurance exchanges. They simply elected not to accept federal assistance (and MONEY) in setting up their own exchanges. Every state is required to have an exchange in place so that residents can take advantage of Obamacare, those that elected to forego federal assistance (and MONEY) in setting up their exchange instead received exchanges created and managed by the federal government. They didn’t necessarily have to set up their own exchanges, but the trade-off was that they lost the ability to control the implementation and management of the exchange for their state.

In the 2012 case NFIB v Sebelius ruled that states did not have to participate in the proposed Medicaid expansion if they so chose. Although states were initially required to join the federal government in funding the expansion of Medicaid benefits and services for needy Americans, the Supreme Court ruling allowed each state to decide whether or not they would contribute, regardless of whether they accepted federal funding or not. While many states ended up contributing state funds to the Medicaid expansion and providing additional benefits for low-income residents and other under-served groups, several states elected to opt out. Again eschewing some federal money.

Over the history of the ACA (about 6 years now) the states that refused to set up their own exchanges or partner with the fed gov and/or refused to expand medicaid have the lowest levels of insured Americans and also have in general the fewest insurers to choose from. I believe at this point there are still 19 states that have yet to expand medicaid ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

The ACA helped my family a lot when we needed it during it's first 4 years. It reduced our monthly insurance bill by easily half. My kid had his tonsils out, clinics are close by and there are 7 different insurance groups to choose from with multiple plan types. I will grant you that that's owing partially to CAs huge population.
*The 3 biggest insurers (Kaiser, Blue Cross and Anthem) in CA are recording higher profits since the ACA was enacted.
**Cali is already talking about our own single-payer plan if Obamacare ends up going south (or gets watered down to being essentially ineffective).
Hell, in the last two elections we voted to increase our own taxes 3 times.

And no, I am not a CA secessionist wink.gif

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 2 2017, 07:21 PM


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AK Rich
post Apr 2 2017, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 03:21 AM) *
If we all started to apply these rules of logic, our discussions would quickly get interesting! Fictive example reply:

* Since I live in Sweden I can provide a more objective and non-partisan perspective on the situation in your country. So my opinion is less colored and therefore more correct. Furthermore I have been abiding by the rules of logic my entire life (I am 35) and you have not as far as I can tell. There is no further need for me to defend my standpoint.

If I posted the above sincerely I would probably moderate myself out of the discussion.

So if you need to use such logical fallacies to defend your statement about ACA being associated with the biggest lies in US history, it seems to me you are running out of valid arguments.

And let's face it - how could a bill that finally helped people get health care, be so incredibly negative?

What is this, an April Fools joke? You do realize that your question employs a logical fallacy right?
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 2 2017, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 2 2017, 04:16 PM) *
What is this, an April Fools joke? You do realize that your question employs a logical fallacy right?


No I don't see the fallacy, please explain it! smile.gif And Aprils Fools is over.


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AK Rich
post Apr 2 2017, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 07:31 AM) *
No I don't see the fallacy, please explain it! smile.gif And Aprils Fools is over.

Good grief, maybe you should go through this entire thread and delete all the posts that contain logical fallacies and lets see what's left when you are done.
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klasaine
post Apr 2 2017, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 04:21 AM) *
If we all started to apply these rules of logic, our discussions would quickly get interesting! Fictive example reply:


I think the misunderstanding 'may' be this phrase ... fictive example reply.

Fictive = imaginary, ficticious.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 2 2017, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 2 2017, 04:41 PM) *
Good grief, maybe you should go through this entire thread and delete all the posts that contain logical fallacies and lets see what's left when you are done.


I am still not getting any factual arguments from you about the horrors of ACA. And where was my logical fallacy which you referred to earlier? I am honestly curious as I don't want to be using those.


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AK Rich
post Apr 2 2017, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 07:51 AM) *
I am still not getting any factual arguments from you about the horrors of ACA. And where was my logical fallacy which you referred to earlier? I am honestly curious as I don't want to be using those.

Did you not read the rest of my post that you replied to, the part where I was responding to Todd?
Anyway, the answer to your question. (And let's face it - how could a bill that finally helped people get health care, be so incredibly negative?)
Because the things that are bad in this law (not a bill wink.gif ) far outweigh the things that are good.

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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 2 2017, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 2 2017, 05:01 PM) *
Did you not read the rest of my post that you replied to, the part where I was responding to Todd?
Anyway, the answer to your question. (And let's face it - how could a bill that finally helped people get health care, be so incredibly negative?)
Because the things that are bad in this law (not a bill wink.gif ) far outweigh the things that are good.


So please explain what bad things "far outweigh" the fact that millions of people's health were saved thanks to ACA?


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Rammikin
post Apr 2 2017, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 11:21 AM) *
And let's face it - how could a bill that finally helped people get health care, be so incredibly negative?



There are some negatives to the ACA. Any complex solution to a complex problem will have negatives. But the ACA is widely held in this country to be a positive step forward. Public polling shows a majority of the nation favors it and some key elements of it enjoy almost universal support.

Here's proof: the GOP offered an alternative plan this year, but in the most important respects, it is the same as the ACA. Both plans have the same key principles:

1) A ban on denying insurance based on preexisiting conditions, which enables the public to shop for insurance.
2) A system that makes #1 economically feasible by encouraging everyone to have insurance.

The 2 plans differ in some details, for example the form of the penalty if you don't have insurance and they differ in some limits on coverage and premiums, but the key principles remain.

In other words, if both ends of the political spectrum are attempting to achieve the same thing, that's a pretty good indicator that it's a worthwhile thing to achieve.

There are problems in some states that are largely self-inflicted. Some states object to the ACA on ideological grounds, and are using that as justification to slow its adoption. As you might imagine, this contributes to health insurance problems in those states.

There is much room for improvement in the ACA. The idea that a single law can solve all the health care problems in this nation is ludicrous, but there is abundant evidence it was a good first step.



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klasaine
post Apr 2 2017, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Apr 2 2017, 10:56 AM) *
There are problems in some states that are largely self-inflicted. Some states object to the ACA on ideological grounds, and are using that as justification to slow its adoption. As you might imagine, this contributes to health insurance problems in those states.

There is much room for improvement in the ACA. The idea that a single law can solve all the health care problems in this nation is ludicrous, but there is abundant evidence it was a good first step.


In case anyone missed it in the recent furor, my post #131 details the 'why' behind a lot of the negatives or problems.



This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 2 2017, 07:11 PM


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