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jstcrsn
post Apr 2 2017, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 2 2017, 06:54 PM) *
So please explain what bad things "far outweigh" the fact that millions of people's health were saved thanks to ACA?

Here is a forbes article indicating ( a year ago ) that the ACA , instead of saving an average of 2500 is costing 500 per family
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/...s/#7952770d1ae2

And many estimate at costing 2500 , thats a 5000 dollar swing . In that video Bernie himself ( who i can"t stand the sound of his voice admits premiums are too high) . So we have insured some by charging 200 million Americans more . Not to mention many of those that are paying increases also have deductibles as high as 10,000 . The promise of keeping your doctor , when Obama had to go on TV to apologize ( how bad do things have to be for a president to have a public apology wink.gif ). These are a few reasons why many are fearful of Obamacare

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Rammikin
post Apr 3 2017, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 2 2017, 06:08 PM) *
In case anyone missed it in the recent furor, my post #131 details the 'why' behind a lot of the negatives or problems.

Sorry, I edited out the "As Ken said above..." smile.gif.



Here's what we know about changes to health insurance in this country since the ACA:

1) More people have health insurance, about 20 million more.
2) The ACA reduced the federal deficit, in part due to medicare cuts.
3) For the first time ever, we have a free market for health insurance.

Here's what we don't know:

1) The cost of health care is growing more slowly in this country since the ACA, but we don't know if that's because of the ACA. This slowing is great news and the ACA was intended to help reduce costs, but the economics of the health care system are too complex to permit advocates of the ACA to claim this particular victory.
2) There has been some turbulence in the insurance marketplace in some states, but it's difficult to say with any certainty if this is due to the ACA. The ACA is intended to make insurance markets more stable over time, and probably will (that's why insurers have embraced it), but we don't know if any short-term fluctuations in the market are due to the ACA. For example, narrowing of provider networks may just be continuing a long-term trend in health insurance. Also, some states resisting the ACA is causing trouble.

It's difficult to make the case the negatives outweigh the positives. That's why there is little support in this country for simply abolishing the ACA. But that shouldn't be construed to mean there isn't more work to be done to improve access to health care in the US.




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Todd Simpson
post Apr 3 2017, 03:29 AM
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Bingo!! smile.gif Positive outcomes. But, those against, simply refuse to see them. They typically listen to far too much Alex Jones (Faaaaar Right Wing Internet Guy) and Fox News. All of which decry the ACA as simply a "TRAVESTY", despite the fact it's helped millions of Americans, including me and my my family as well as Kens, as he stated. They simply hate it because it was Obamas plan. It's that simple.

Did you notice it took Kris four questions in a row to get a straight answer as to what was so terrible about it?

That's because there is all this noise floating about saying it's "terrible" but with no real info behind it. Just attack ads and Trump saying it's a "Disaster". A disaster that has helped millions and saved me wads on health insurance. So yeah, it's just the usual, folks listening to Rush Limbaugh, Trump, Alex Jones, and they can't help but get a bit brainwashed by it. It's just a natural outcome. The same say that someone listening to Marx and Lenin all day in their work truck would be pretty staunch Marxists after a while. Repetition is the key to propaganda. Facts are the only defense. But we live in a Fact Free World now, so it's hard. Most folks don't have the time to watch BBC, ABC, NBC, and all the right wing channels so they just focus on the right wing stuff, which bashes all the left wing stuff, and you get this huge split in the country. The only thing we are headed for is civil war part II if this doesn't calm down. All the survivalists (at least here in GA) are starting to question trump because of the mere hint of his ties to Russia, who'm they all hate. Now we get all the Militias riled up, next thing you know, the shooting starts. Bad news.

Todd
QUOTE (Rammikin @ Apr 2 2017, 09:19 PM) *
Sorry, I edited out the "As Ken said above..." smile.gif.



Here's what we know about changes to health insurance in this country since the ACA:

1) More people have health insurance, about 20 million more.
2) The ACA reduced the federal deficit, in part due to medicare cuts.
3) For the first time ever, we have a free market for health insurance.

Here's what we don't know:

1) The cost of health care is growing more slowly in this country since the ACA, but we don't know if that's because of the ACA. This slowing is great news and the ACA was intended to help reduce costs, but the economics of the health care system are too complex to permit advocates of the ACA to claim this particular victory.
2) There has been some turbulence in the insurance marketplace in some states, but it's difficult to say with any certainty if this is due to the ACA. The ACA is intended to make insurance markets more stable over time, and probably will (that's why insurers have embraced it), but we don't know if any short-term fluctuations in the market are due to the ACA. For example, narrowing of provider networks may just be continuing a long-term trend in health insurance. Also, some states resisting the ACA is causing trouble.

It's difficult to make the case the negatives outweigh the positives. That's why there is little support in this country for simply abolishing the ACA. But that shouldn't be construed to mean there isn't more work to be done to improve access to health care in the US.



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klasaine
post Apr 3 2017, 03:50 AM
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When we were taking advantage of Obamacare yeah, there were elements that were a major pain in the ass to deal with.
I'm an 'independent contractor' so I had to submit not only our tax returns but my schedule C profit and loss forms/declarations in order to qualify for the subsidy. Thankfully I have been filing a 'Schedule C' since the late 90s and I'm licensed and registered as a business in the city of los angeles. Unfortunately I know a lot of guys and gals that never really did that (the legit paperwork for indie contractor) and of course now bitch about how they don't qualify for a subsidy and then by extension "obamacare sucks" (Dems and Repubs alike). My point being that if you're not willing to work within the system (and figure the system out) then you can't expect to reap a benefit. This is why I personally think that the single payer system is best. Nobody's left out - even if they're too fucking stupid to figure it out (I'm referring to some of my own friends and family).

*At present 1) we don't qualify for a subsidy anymore and 2) fortuitously my wife now has a full-time job at a college and she gets family health coverage. But I'm still all the way for keeping the ACA and continuously making improvements to it.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 3 2017, 05:03 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 3 2017, 04:12 AM
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I too got the subsidy and it really helped. Also I found a much cheaper plan that what I had before with great bennies! Helpful as I'm falling apart bit by bit. Having broken my back twice I need coverage. You nailed it with the paperwork. You gotta stay up on all the bits they need or you get really hammered. Again I have to agree with you single payer idea as the only practical solution to a vastly complex problem. Of course, Alex Jones thinks single payer is the work of the devil. All I know is that the folks who moved way down south to join the "Preppers" are getting really twitchy. I hope this all calms down and soon. I do NOT believe Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas are the templates for how we should run our country and that they were flukes. Sadly, many of my Southern brethren do not share my optimism.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 2 2017, 10:50 PM) *
When we were taking advantage of Obamacare yeah, there were elements that were a major pain in the ass to deal with.
I'm an 'independent contractor' so I had to submit not only our tax returns but my schedule C profit and loss forms/declarations in order to qualify for the subsidy. Thankfully I have been filing a 'Schedule C' since the late 90s and I'm licensed and registered as a business in the city of los angeles. Unfortunately I know a lot of guys and gals that never really did that (the legit paperwork for indie contractor) and of course now bitch about how they don't qualify for a subsidy and then by extension "obamacare sucks" (Dems and Repubs alike). My point being that if you're not willing to work within the system (and figure the system out) then you can't expect to reap a benefit. This is why I personally think that the single payer system is best. Nobody's left out - even if they're too fucking stupid to figure it out.

*At present 1) we don't qualify for a subsidy anymore and 2) fortuitously my wife now has a full-time job at a college and she gets family health coverage. But I'm still all the way for keeping the ACA and continuously making improvements to it.


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AK Rich
post Apr 3 2017, 04:51 PM
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For those who would like to know how the bad outweighs the good concerning the ACA. Just for starters I have found a piece that explains the effects of the ACA on economic productivity in order to save myself a boatload of typing and my valuable time, and to explain it better than I could.
Again, this is just for starters and really could be reason enough but there are in fact more things about the ACA to consider that make it a really bad law.

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/effects-of-t...c-productivity/
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Rammikin
post Apr 3 2017, 08:00 PM
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With all due respect, I don't think this article says what you think it says. It doesn't contain any observations or measurements of effects of the ACA on the economy. It makes predictions, but there is no analysis of whether those predictions have come true. Second, as he clearly states, he is not making any claims about the balance of positives and negatives of the ACA. Third, the logical conclusion of his prediction is not that the ACA should be abolished, but rather the subsidy schedule should be adjusted. Fourth, he incorrectly assumes salaries are inelastic. If employer A offers more benefits than employer B, there's no reason to believe A and B would pay the same salary to employees. Fifth, this line of reasoning is effectively the same as criticism of progressive taxation, and that is hardly proven to be detrimental to the economy, let alone widely believed to be a bad idea.

That's just for starters, my time is too valuable to list more smile.gif.


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jstcrsn
post Apr 4 2017, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Apr 3 2017, 02:19 AM) *
Sorry, I edited out the "As Ken said above..." smile.gif.



Here's what we know about changes to health insurance in this country since the ACA:

1) More people have health insurance, about 20 million more.
2) The ACA reduced the federal deficit, in part due to medicare cuts.
3) For the first time ever, we have a free market for health insurance.

Her is a NY Post article claiming differently , and things have only got worse since 2014

and we don"t have a free market for health until they can cross state lines . What we have now is the Government forcing( most of the us) to
choose between limited options , or face fines , which many are choosing to do because they have realized they can't afford what the Government is shoving up their kiester

You want to talk about Quid pro quo . Obama ran on stoping evil insurance companies from making profit . Go ahead look it up , they have made higher profits under Obamacare than ever before , same with the banks - they were given 80 billion a month that they don't have to pay back after Obama ran on getting ahold a big banks , low and behold who do big banks and insurance companies support , you guessed it Democrats

smell the money trail it usually goes back to democrats as often as it does republican
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 4 2017, 08:22 AM
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We're seeing a slight decrease in quality of discussion here, with external links and less personal reasoning.

For me personally this discussion has even more strengthened my opinion that the advantages of ACA far outweighs the negative sides.

Thanks Ken, Rammikin and Todd for sharing their personal experience and reasoning!


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jstcrsn
post Apr 4 2017, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 4 2017, 08:22 AM) *
We're seeing a slight decrease in quality of discussion here, with external links and less personal reasoning.

For me personally this discussion has even more strengthened my opinion that the advantages of ACA far outweighs the negative sides.

Thanks Ken, Rammikin and Todd for sharing their personal experience and reasoning!

This post says to me "less facts more feelings " how are we to prove our stances without outside sources ? why did you say you started watching American news sources if not to get different facts to make an informed decision. My insurance went up 150 a month I have 2000 dollar deductible , no doctor visits or medicines are included , and I am the lucky . There are many stories people paying 1500 a month as well as Insurance companies completely pulling out of states ,reducing competition and/or leaving people without coverage . Government estimates indicate premiums will go up 3 to 4 percent this year alone and that's after all the increases both sides have discussed , except for the ones that got Government Welfare . I guess if I was getting someone else to help pay for my health care , I would like it too .

Are you just wanting everyone's opinion without information as why and how we reached that conclusion ?
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Rammikin
post Apr 4 2017, 02:54 PM
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Sixth, the CBO already included Mulligan's effect in their estimates. Seventh, Mulligan would be the first to admit his numbers are outliers. Most estimates for the magnitude of the effect are less than half of his. Eighth, there are countervailing effects. For example, employees with access to health care will get sick less often. I could go on smile.gif.





Seriously though, make no mistake, it costs us money, as a society, to avoid a dystopia where poor people have no health insurance. Nobody is saying this comes for free.

Further, if we want a free market for health insurance where insurance suppliers can't deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions, the price we have to pay is: everyone must obtain health insurance. That's the only way the pre-existing coverage ban is economically feasible.

There is no free lunch, we have to pay a price, and nobody has advanced a plan that funds this more equitably than the ACA. Polls show public support for the republican alternative is extremely low: around 15%.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 4 2017, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 4 2017, 12:34 PM) *
This post says to me "less facts more feelings " how are we to prove our stances without outside sources ? why did you say you started watching American news sources if not to get different facts to make an informed decision.


No we must use logical reasoning, as that is the most effective way to circumvent the information attack your country is currently undergoing.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 4 2017, 12:34 PM) *
My insurance went up 150 a month I have 2000 dollar deductible , no doctor visits or medicines are included , and I am the lucky . There are many stories people paying 1500 a month as well as Insurance companies completely pulling out of states ,reducing competition and/or leaving people without coverage . Government estimates indicate premiums will go up 3 to 4 percent this year alone and that's after all the increases both sides have discussed , except for the ones that got Government Welfare . I guess if I was getting someone else to help pay for my health care , I would like it too .


This is interesting. So are you saying you were better off before ACA?


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klasaine
post Apr 4 2017, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 4 2017, 04:34 AM) *
This post says to me "less facts more feelings


I don't do 'feelings'.
Whether it's guitar or Obamacare, I speak from experience and my own research that bears an authentic conclusion.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 4 2017, 03:27 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 4 2017, 04:15 PM
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Sigh. AKRICH I must call you on the carpet again on your use of sources. HILLSDALE? Really?

They are one of the top 5 most conservative educational institutions in country. It's literally a feeder school for republican jobs on capital hill.

4. Hillsdale College: The school was in the news recently when it was revealed that Justice Clarence Thomas failed to disclose the Hillsdale salary of his wife Ginni Thomas. Called the “citadel of American conservatism,” Hillsdale features academics like Rush Limbaugh fill-in Mark Steyn, and is said to be a pipeline to Republican jobs on Capitol Hill.

Needless to say, the way they interpret the "Facts" is waaaay right wing to say the least. The hardcore bias is so obvious as to be offensive IMHO. Try to find a genuine review of the GOP health plan from some place the CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE which are NON PARTISAN. The use of partisan sources weakens one's argument.


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 3 2017, 11:51 AM) *
For those who would like to know how the bad outweighs the good concerning the ACA. Just for starters I have found a piece that explains the effects of the ACA on economic productivity in order to save myself a boatload of typing and my valuable time, and to explain it better than I could.
Again, this is just for starters and really could be reason enough but there are in fact more things about the ACA to consider that make it a really bad law.

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/effects-of-t...c-productivity/


Very good question/s. Are you saying we wer better before ACA with millions uninsured and straining our emergency rooms just for a cold or flu? I would not be able to agree with that. Based on personal experience and experience of others I"ve talked to, AVA has been a great help. Not a "Disaster" as Trump claims.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 4 2017, 10:17 AM) *
No we must use logical reasoning, as that is the most effective way to circumvent the information attack your country is currently undergoing.



This is interesting. So are you saying you were better off before ACA?


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 4 2017, 04:11 PM


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jstcrsn
post Apr 4 2017, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 4 2017, 03:17 PM) *
No we must use logical reasoning, as that is the most effective way to circumvent the information attack your country is currently undergoing.



This is interesting. So are you saying you were better off before ACA?

I was better off , But if only for this small amount which really did not hurt . the ACA is darn close to working . From my sources, about to explode as so many are losing their coverage and like I said in other posts , the Governments own numbers show premiums going up another 3 to 4 percent this year alone . Every program our government has ever implemented has been 4 to 5 times more than the amount " they" thought and that scares me . If premiums and deductibles stay where they are , One can only conclude that the ACA is a winner , on the other hand , if they rise and people start losing their coverage would you join me in saying somethin needs fixing .

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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 4 2017, 08:42 PM
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Yes mate, I'm all up for fixing and improving - that's what politics should be about!


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Rammikin
post Apr 4 2017, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 4 2017, 02:17 PM) *
This is interesting. So are you saying you were better off before ACA?


It's important to ask that question in the aggregate. Overall, the annual growth of health insurance costs is down significantly since the ACA. However, as I mentioned above, it would be premature to give the ACA credit for that. But, by the same token, it's not possible to say the ACA has caused an increase in costs.





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klasaine
post Apr 4 2017, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 4 2017, 11:40 AM) *
I was better off , But if only for this small amount which really did not hurt . the ACA is darn close to working . From my sources, about to explode as so many are losing their coverage and like I said in other posts , the Governments own numbers show premiums going up another 3 to 4 percent this year alone . Every program our government has ever implemented has been 4 to 5 times more than the amount " they" thought and that scares me . If premiums and deductibles stay where they are , One can only conclude that the ACA is a winner , on the other hand , if they rise and people start losing their coverage would you join me in saying somethin needs fixing .


I wonder if the situation would have been different if Sam Brownback (Governor of Kansas) hadn't returned the federal grant intended to help the state develop technical infrastructure for running the exchange. The return of the grant effectively quashed a state-run exchange.
Also, Kansas only expanded Medicaid coverage in 2015.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 5 2017, 12:17 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 4 2017, 09:44 PM
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I fear the problem is more with "your sources" than the actual state of obama care. I have yet to see a right wing source saying anything positive about obama care and I"m guessing you watch Fox News, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, that sort of thing? Just a guess smile.gif Those folks all decry ACA as a Disaster.


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 4 2017, 02:40 PM) *
I was better off , But if only for this small amount which really did not hurt . the ACA is darn close to working . From my sources, about to explode as so many are losing their coverage and like I said in other posts , the Governments own numbers show premiums going up another 3 to 4 percent this year alone . Every program our government has ever implemented has been 4 to 5 times more than the amount " they" thought and that scares me . If premiums and deductibles stay where they are , One can only conclude that the ACA is a winner , on the other hand , if they rise and people start losing their coverage would you join me in saying somethin needs fixing .



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jstcrsn
post Apr 4 2017, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 4 2017, 09:44 PM) *
I fear the problem is more with "your sources" than the actual state of obama care. I have yet to see a right wing source saying anything positive about obama care and I"m guessing you watch Fox News, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, that sort of thing? Just a guess smile.gif Those folks all decry ACA as a Disaster.
I know you won"t believe this todd , I only got cable last month , and only got it because it came with internet I needed . Never seen Fox news , a few stories on you tube , same with the others you mentioned , still don't have time for TV as I feel it is mostly a waste of time , sure you relax from time to time , I usually watch a movie with my wife or sports without her wink.gif

Here is a little more on how the ACA has not been as sunny as some think https://ballotpedia.org/Health_insurance_po...since_Obamacare

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