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AK Rich
post Mar 27 2017, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Mar 26 2017, 09:17 AM) *
The US spends as much on military expenditures as the next dozen countries in the world combined. The US accounts for about a third of worldwide military spending.

That first sentence doesn't seem to be correct from what I can find, or at least old data. The second may be more accurate.
Numbers from 2014 show that projected military expenditures of 581 billion are exceeded by the next 9 nations spending of a projected 588 billion. And at that time, the projected spending for the years to follow show a 25% reduction in military spending until 2020.
Those projections also showed that by 2020 the military spending of the US will be 6 billion less than the next 5 nations (obviously these numbers will change in light of recent events).
Numbers I could find for 2015 show that the military spending for the US was roughly equal to the next 7 nations which are China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, UK, India, France and Japan.
It should be noted that our military does far more than just provide for the common defense of the US. We have provided it for other nations as well and are bound by treaties to do so in some cases. The US is top cover for the world. Our military is a big part of the reason why communism isn't running rampant across the globe, and we are expected by other nations to continue to be a police force for the globe so to speak.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Mar 27 2017, 05:02 PM
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klasaine
post Mar 27 2017, 05:13 PM
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No, those figures are pretty accurate.
The US accounts for between 36 and 37% of the worlds total military expenditures. The World total is approx 1.6 trillion dollars give or take. These are 2015 and 2016 numbers from several sources ... https://www.google.com/search?q=US+military...-8&oe=utf-8

As for protecting the rest of the world. Yes, we of course do and spend a lot but of the other top military spenders - France, Britain, Japan and Germany - they absolutely pull their weight (regardless of what the President 'says'). We spend more than double what China spends and Russia barely even registers in comparison. *Saudi Arabia spends more on their military than Russia (one third more).

I'm all for being the strongest, most advanced and most prepared nation in the world but there's overkill in the first draft of the newly proposed budget.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 27 2017, 05:15 PM


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AK Rich
post Mar 27 2017, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 27 2017, 08:13 AM) *
No, those figures are pretty accurate.
The US accounts for between 36 and 37% of the worlds total military expenditures. The World total is approx 1.6 trillion dollars give or take. These are 2015 and 2016 numbers from several sources ... https://www.google.com/search?q=US+military...-8&oe=utf-8

As for protecting the rest of the world. Yes, we of course do and spend a lot but of the other top military spenders - France, Britain, Japan and Germany - they absolutely pull their weight (regardless of what the President 'says'). We spend more than double what China spends and Russia barely even registers in comparison. *Saudi Arabia spends more on their military than Russia (one third more).

I'm all for being the strongest, most advanced and most prepared nation in the world but there's overkill in the first draft of the newly proposed budget.

You may have missed my where I edited the beginning of my post. I can agree with you that the US accounts for 36 or 37% of worldwide expenditures. The first claim that we spend more than the next dozen nations is clearly outdated and inaccurate. I read the same articles as you did, or at least this one.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaign...nding-vs-world/

Overkill in this years budget may be needed to compensate for all of the reductions that have occurred over the last 8 years to get us back on track.

Edit: Something else to consider is the possibility that the numbers we have for countries like China and Russia may not be accurate if those numbers are provided by the individual nations themselves. There is no question that China has spent quite a bit on the military in the last decade or more such as rebuilding their Navy. And some of those things that we see as a military buildup, they have denied as is the case of island building in the South China Sea.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Mar 27 2017, 06:25 PM
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klasaine
post Mar 27 2017, 07:36 PM
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Maybe.
One can also make the case that their numbers are exaggerated for 'effect', especially the effect upon their own populous.
It's well documented that China in particular exaggerates it's GDP. Who knows what else they exaggerate.

China is building up in the South China Sea because we already have 5 bases nearby (which ain't going anywhere, contrary to whatever B.S. Duterte may talk).


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jstcrsn
post Mar 27 2017, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Mar 26 2017, 06:17 PM) *
The US spends as much on military expenditures as the next dozen countries in the world combined. The US accounts for about a third of worldwide military spending.

seems we also had to protect about a third of the world from Russia in the cold war ( thats why this ball is out of control , should we have those people pay us back

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 21 2017, 11:30 PM) *
He could be talking about the endownment for the arts or public broadcasting. Really any program that also takes private donor funds. I can't agree with his statement, per usual, that private money will cover the missing federal dollars. I agree with Kris here, shocker, that the budget is horrific. Peeling the 1% of the budget allocated to programs like the endowment for the arts while making tax payers from 3 MILLION DOLLARS per weekend, every weekend, when he takes his entourage to MARO LAGO. Now that is flat out criminal IMHO. All the while, trimming the pennies of each dollar that go for programs that help the sick and the aged and the poor. Frankly, he should be ashamed of himself.

Doing this to fatten up the military just makes it that much worse. We already spend more than the next several top nations combined. Also, buying more submarines and stealth jets wont help fight terrorism, homegrown or otherwise. sad.gif It's just more money for fat cats and contractors, par for the course with republican presidents sadly.

TRUTH IS, until regular trump voters get kicked off their health care, and see their taxes go up, along with all the other bad things that are headed for the middle/lower middle class if this budget passes, not until then will we see any change in Trump Fan Club. Most of his following (present company excluded of course) are just voting with their heart. The brain is not part of it IMHO. He says things that resonate with frustrated white folks who feel left behind by globalism and who simply don't want the change that is happening in America. We are becoming more "brown" as a county simply due to demographic shifts. The Baby Boomers are losing their grip on power and they are not going down without a fight. Til they all die off, more of the same is on deck.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. My father is a boomer that sees trump for what he is. Sadly, most boomers are trumpers.

us "Trumpers " are getting tired of you complaining about spending .I would also like to point out this political fallacy that you brought up , that you broke , by trying to saddle the opposing opinion with a title that will negate said opinion with an inferred/impossible to disprove bias .
Where was your complaining when Obama saddled us with eleven trillion dollars of dept. Seriously , a stagnant economy , a failed health care plan , more Americans on government assistant . All this for the bargain price of 11 trillion dollars , Your political ideas you have stood behind for the last 8 years (leading to all the afore mentioned ) seem to scare me rather than inspire confidence .

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AK Rich
post Mar 28 2017, 03:40 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 27 2017, 10:36 AM) *
Maybe.
One can also make the case that their numbers are exaggerated for 'effect', especially the effect upon their own populous.
It's well documented that China in particular exaggerates it's GDP. Who knows what else they exaggerate.

China is building up in the South China Sea because we already have 5 bases nearby (which ain't going anywhere, contrary to whatever B.S. Duterte may talk).

Can't argue with your first point but I am not convinced on your second for at least a couple of reasons. At any rate I believe the building of those islands to be primarily a military expenditure and may not be disclosed as such.
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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 28 2017, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 27 2017, 11:51 PM) *
seems we also had to protect about a third of the world from Russia in the cold war ( thats why this ball is out of control , should we have those people pay us back


us "Trumpers " are getting tired of you complaining about spending , Where in the Hell was your complaining when Obama saddled us with eleven trillion dollars of dept, seriously , a stagnant economy , a failed health care plan , more Americans on government assistant . All this for the bargain price of 11 trillion dollars , You really think I am going to listen to your " wisdom "


Hey jstcrsn -

Have you noticed how civilised the discussion had become prior to your post? Please make an extra effort to be polite.


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jstcrsn
post Mar 28 2017, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 28 2017, 07:09 AM) *
Hey jstcrsn -

Have you noticed how civilised the discussion had become prior to your post? Please make an extra effort to be polite.

do you mean the quote were Todd referred to them trumpers .I talk how I would and do talk to friends will they are right in front of me and looking back it reads differently than meant . Edited , my apologizes

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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 28 2017, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 28 2017, 11:50 AM) *
do you mean the quote were Todd referred to them trumpers .I talk how I would and do talk to friends will they are right in front of me and looking back it reads differently than meant . Edited , my apologizes


No problem mate. I don't think you are doing it intentionally - but in order to keep these threads we just need to be a little extra cautious.


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klasaine
post Mar 28 2017, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Mar 27 2017, 07:40 PM) *
Can't argue with your first point but I am not convinced on your second for at least a couple of reasons. At any rate I believe the building of those islands to be primarily a military expenditure and may not be disclosed as such.


I think it's pretty obvious that it's a military expenditure. And to be clear I'm not at all saying no new defense spending. But how about instead of 54 billion, make it 30 billion and don't cut anything.


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AK Rich
post Mar 28 2017, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 28 2017, 05:04 AM) *
I think it's pretty obvious that it's a military expenditure. And to be clear I'm not at all saying no new defense spending. But how about instead of 54 billion, make it 30 billion and don't cut anything.

Or we could do that 30 billion for the military and leave the rest of the cuts in place and put that saved 24 billion towards paying down the national debt, which would be like basically paying for nothing since that is about what we have to show after spending all that money that we didn't have in the last 8-10 years.


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Todd Simpson
post Mar 29 2017, 03:26 AM
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Civility is always a good thing imho smile.gif As for crsns post, I didn't support much of the spending under obama, so I'm not sure why crsn would think that I was a fan of it without asking? I'm not a fan of expanding the military industrial complex in general. IT's gotten to be nearly half of our budget and we have problems at home that could use the money imho. Maybe next election cycle smile.gif

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 28 2017, 02:09 AM) *
Hey jstcrsn -

Have you noticed how civilised the discussion had become prior to your post? Please make an extra effort to be polite.


That does sound a bit more "Sensible" smile.gif

QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 28 2017, 09:04 AM) *
I think it's pretty obvious that it's a military expenditure. And to be clear I'm not at all saying no new defense spending. But how about instead of 54 billion, make it 30 billion and don't cut anything.


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jstcrsn
post Mar 29 2017, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 29 2017, 03:26 AM) *
Civility is always a good thing imho smile.gif As for crsns post, I didn't support much of the spending under obama, so I'm not sure why crsn would think that I was a fan of it without asking? I'm not a fan of expanding the military industrial complex in general. IT's gotten to be nearly half of our budget and we have problems at home that could use the money imho. Maybe next election cycle smile.gif



That does sound a bit more "Sensible" smile.gif

so you do find it troubling that Obama raised the national dept to 20 trillion ?
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Todd Simpson
post Mar 29 2017, 07:22 PM
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Barack Obama: Added $7.917 trillion, a 68 percent increase from the $11.657 trillion debt at the end of George W. Bush’s last budget, FY 2009.

George Bush raised the debt by $5.849 trillion, with the war on terror. The debt is so extreme at this point that the interest alone is going to bury us at some point. Both of them added way to much debt imho fighting the "war on terror". War against an idea is the "Forever War" that George Orwell tried to warn us about in his book 1984 and here we are. A war without end with unlimited expansion of the military at the expense of the poor, disabled and aged. So yeah, wag your finger at BUSH at bit while you are wagging it at OBAMA. smile.gif


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Mar 29 2017, 08:13 AM) *
so you do find it troubling that Obama raised the national dept to 20 trillion ?


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klasaine
post Mar 29 2017, 08:35 PM
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The US was born in debt and we've only EVER had one balanced budget and one year where we didn't owe any money - 1835 (Jackson admin). At that time the debt was $58 million ($1.4 billion in today's money).

Our interest rate is really low. We are AAA rated and we easily make our payments.

I don't even think we're in the top 10 of debt to GDP nations. Maybe we're #12 right now.
Don't look at the actual number, which is inconceivable to a normal human, look at the % to GDP and the interest 'rate' we pay.

Japan's debt to GDP is 250% but they still get cheap loans ... because everybody knows that Japan makes good on their payments (as do we).



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jstcrsn
post Mar 30 2017, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 29 2017, 07:22 PM) *
Barack Obama: Added $7.917 trillion, a 68 percent increase from the $11.657 trillion debt at the end of George W. Bush’s last budget, FY 2009.

George Bush raised the debt by $5.849 trillion, with the war on terror. The debt is so extreme at this point that the interest alone is going to bury us at some point. Both of them added way to much debt imho fighting the "war on terror". War against an idea is the "Forever War" that George Orwell tried to warn us about in his book 1984 and here we are. A war without end with unlimited expansion of the military at the expense of the poor, disabled and aged. So yeah, wag your finger at BUSH at bit while you are wagging it at OBAMA. smile.gif

I have waged it at bush, the last 2 years there was never a spending bill he didn"t like/sign. I too think this will eventually kill the US, so how do we stop washington from spending us into oblivion
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AK Rich
post Mar 30 2017, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Mar 29 2017, 10:22 AM) *
War against an idea is the "Forever War" that George Orwell tried to warn us about in his book 1984 and here we are. A war without end with unlimited expansion of the military at the expense of the poor, disabled and aged.

You know that is almost the exact wording that Alex Jones used to use to describe the war on terror during the Bush admin.
What would you call a war with an enemy that represents no country? War against an idea?
Idea's don't fly jets into buildings or seek to get their way through violence and intimidation and murder those who do not agree and will not comply with their barbaric ideals. Piss poor excuses for people that happen to be called terrorists do.
In my view, 1984 describes the grim reality of a liberal utopia where there is no such thing as individuality and gov controls everything with absolute power.

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klasaine
post Mar 30 2017, 05:02 PM
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Other than flying jets into buildings (though plenty of conspiracy folks think we actually did it to ourselves ie., 911 ), the "barbaric" other side thinks and says the exact same things about us. Not too mention the not so barbaric south/central america and southeast asia.

I personally don't agree with their view but it is all really a matter of perspective.

Throughout most of the world, the US is at best regarded as the 300 lb. gorilla. A scary 300 lb. gorilla.
We are seen as big, rich, super powerful and enigmatic - but also impetuous, bullying and clumsy.

Travel. Observe.

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Mertay
post Mar 30 2017, 09:33 PM
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Things doesn't look good for Trump it seems, I wouldn't be surprised in USA waged war somewhere soon.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2017, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Mar 30 2017, 09:33 PM) *
Things doesn't look good for Trump it seems, I wouldn't be surprised in USA waged war somewhere soon.


Yes that's a very obvious thing he could do to distract people and get approval rating up sad.gif At the cost of civilian lives... sad.gif


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