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> What Causes This Noise?
Phil66
post May 14 2017, 09:55 PM
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Thanks Mertay,

I'll check tomorrow but I think the Engl gain is maxed wink.gif

Cheers


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Mertay
post May 14 2017, 10:47 PM
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The first comp. in the chain is probably the main reason of noise, if gain drops an od with mild settings can be used. But the second comp if set wrong can also cause problems, I would expect a more raw sound when that comp. is removed (might sound better to you even if it adds noise or not).

Also, you mentioned about making a marshall based preset for general use. Create/adjust to taste while listening from the monitors at low volume (say, the lowest you listen normally-nothing drastic), after that remind me I'd like to try something that might work for you.


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Todd Simpson
post May 15 2017, 12:32 AM
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The two compressor at different spots like that strikes me as a pinch odd. I'm with mertay, turn off the compressors. Also, realize that, no matter what, as you add gain/dist, you add noise. This is the entire reason for a noise gate. if you have a high gain patch ( you mentioned the ENGL gain was all the way up) then the "noise floor" is way up. E.g There will be noise in the signal no matter what. The compressors may be acting as a noise gate on this patch. That's one way to do it.

I'd say start with the very basics. E.G. Turn everything off but the AMP and CAB. Start with the gain at Zero. Turn up until you find a good starting point for your tone. Then, add a noise gate Guitar/gate/Amp. And fiddle with the gate so that it doesn't clamp down on your sustain, but does clamp down on the noise.

After you find a good balance, add an Overdrive in front of the engl with volume half way and gain at zero. Slowly work the volume up till you find the sweet spot.

I'd leave the compressors off to be honest.

Once you find a good starting point with gate/overdrive/head/cab, then you can start adding FX like delay/reverb wink.gif

Todd



QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 14 2017, 03:20 PM) *
OK,

No noise gate, guitar into Red Squeeze compressor>Engle head>4x12>Deluxe compressor>Chrous>Simple delay>plate reverb.

I didn't put them in this order it was as the patch was found wink.gif

Cheers



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Rammikin
post May 15 2017, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 4 2017, 08:18 PM) *
OK, I know this happens but what causes it? It was worse with my GT100 than with this Helix LT, is it the sound of the processors?

It's hard to be certain, but no, that does not sound like a sound the processor is producing. I would first suspect a cable, pickup, or interface problem.




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Todd Simpson
post May 15 2017, 02:56 AM
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Going back further in this thread I noticed that you said both your processors were doing this same thing? If that's the case then RAMMIKIN is probably right. It's not the patch/processor. If they are both doing the same thing, its' probably something else. The last bit of advice I gave was just about creating a process for making a decent patch by checking each bit along the way.

However, it seems clear to me now that you are saying both processors are doing this. I think the real answer isn't about the patch. Something else is putting odd line noise in your signal. So just like anything else, you need to remove as many variables as possible to determine where the source issue exists. E.G. take both processors, put them on dry/clean, and use one guitar cable and a pair of headphones to test. If you get the same result. Try a different guitar cable. Same results again, try a different pair of headphones. Same results again, try a different guitar. Same results yet again, try going to someone elses house and pluggin in there just to get away from your electric.


If you do all that and don't find the source then it's a mystery to be sure smile.gif


Todd
QUOTE (Rammikin @ May 14 2017, 09:34 PM) *
It's hard to be certain, but no, that does not sound like a sound the processor is producing. I would first suspect a cable, pickup, or interface problem.



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Phil66
post May 15 2017, 08:44 PM
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Ok, I've narrowed it down to something I can't really do much about. It must be something in my electrics, possibly caused by my computer.

On the following recordings, I have hit one note and let it decay then played the same lick so you can hear the tonal difference. There is a difference in volume of the first note on each recording but I don't think it's all down to the compressors, I was only using my finger with no pick, I didn't want a sharp attack, I did use a pick for the lick though.

Here is the patch with the original settings.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/original-settings

Here is the patch minus the Red Squeeze.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-red-squeeze

Minus the Deluxe Comp:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-deluxe-comp

Minus both comps:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-both-comps

Here is the guitar just sitting there with me having no comp, then Red Squeeze, then Red Squeeze + Deluxe, then back to Red and back to none. I turned the input levels up for this and forgot to send the input to stereo.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/none-rc-rcdc-rc-none

Now, here is just me holding my guitar and putting it underneath my desk and near to the side of the PC. After I recorded this I did move across the other side of the room with my guitar but it didn't get rid of the noise, so maybe the PC is putting something into the electrical system?
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/computer


I think it's something I am going to have to work around as I can't really do much regarding the sockets etc in my room, I only have two in there and everything on my setup is running from one socket blink.gif

The compressors are exacerbating the problem, I might try putting my Robert Keeley Compressor Pro before the Helix LT instead of using the onboard compressors. What do you think? Or is there something else? I'm enjoying learning about this stuff but it's hindering my practise sad.gif

Cheers


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Mertay
post May 15 2017, 09:26 PM
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First, are you hitting near clipping when played? cause the signal must be as strong as possible for lesser noise.

Guitar will always cause noise when played close to a computer. Like many, my computer is also close to me when I play guitar but I adjust the chair angle to the least noise I get (just a slight angle from the monitor is enough).

This is actually the first thing to do, lower the volume all the way down and look at the noise levels while adjusting the seat. Ofcourse your sitting position must be comfortable, but your body angle to the screen doesn't have to be perfectly facing streight.

After this I'd like to see a guitar+helix+computer (no soundcard, preamp, pedal etc.) noise result. If this doesn't reduce the noise then I'll be convinced its not about your recording chain.

P.S.; reducing the noise will yield more detail of your playing to Gab. as it will be sort of higher definition when you share sound files. Its annoying and takes time but hopefully on the long run would be worth it if we can get better results.


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Phil66
post May 15 2017, 10:28 PM
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Thanks Mertay,

In the picked section after the long single note I was hitting around -.4db (minus zero point four).

I experimented with different set positions and even at the metres away it got no better than when sitting. The recording of the computer was with me putting the guitar nearly touching the side of the computer. I still had the same patch on.

When you say record helix direct, do you mean via USB?

If it helps, I disconnected EVERYTHING except the mains cable and plugged my headphones (Senheiser HD600) directly into the Helix LT and the exact same noise was there.

Cheers


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Mertay
post May 15 2017, 11:18 PM
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If the same noise is there when guitar+helix+headphones then yeah we can eliminate your recording chain from being the problem.

How about the lighting in your room? I heard fluorescent and dimmer's can cause quite a lot of noise when recording. Dimmer's must be unpluged from socket if causing noise.

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 15 2017, 11:19 PM


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Phil66
post May 16 2017, 07:11 AM
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I have no dimmers or fluorescent, just halogen spotlights.

I know my electrics are noisy, I had some new pickups fitted once and they were so hummy it was unbelievable, went back to the shop with my amp/guitar/cables, nothing, even on full gain only the noise you would expect. We changed the wiring to the Seymour Duncan style for Les Pauls and it eliminated 95% of the noise. I'll try and find those recordings but I don't think I have them.

I think the next step, is for me to find the time, maybe at the weekend, to take my Helix and guitar to another house, not a neighbour as they all have been built to the same standard. First though, maybe just try it downstairs, in the garage to see if it is actually the computer.

Thanks for your help buddy. smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post May 16 2017, 07:12 AM
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THe headphone to helix and GT100 is the big test. Did it make the noise on both? Also did you try a different guitar cable on both? What were the results there?

The only thing to try after that, is take both units to a friends house and see if you get the same results. If you don't, then it's something at your place smile.gif

Todd



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Mertay
post May 16 2017, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 16 2017, 06:11 AM) *
...


I see, wish we could find an easier fix. If you do notice less noise in another house then we might take next step accordingly.

Many years ago I had one of those small ups devices, it was for properly shuting down the computer when power loss occured. Gave 5 minutes to close the computer once the electricity was cut.

I clearly remember trying to power my processor with it and the noise levels were greatly reduced although my amp was still running from the house electricity. I don't know their prices these days or what brand/model is best but running helix (and preferably computer+ other low energy needing gear) should fix the problem. Amps usually require a lot of power so excluding them for this would probably be better.


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Phil66
post May 16 2017, 10:23 AM
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Thanks,

I did try a different cable and it was no different, brand new, different brand. No difference. I tried my RG1570 and there was a little bit less noise but that's a higher price bracket guitar than the PRS SE Custom24 that I am using for the tests.

Personally I think next step is to do a similar patch in the GT100, see what that does, I'm 99.9% sure it will be the same as I have heard it on that, I heard it on the GT10 and the ME80. All on High gain settings.

Then I'll take it down stairs so it's away from the PC and on a different electrical route, the main fuse box is in the garage so I'll be nearer to the incoming mains.

After that, it will be to take it to another house, unless the garage thing gives no noise, then I know where to look.

Does this sound the right way to you?

Cheers my friends. I appreciate your time.


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Mertay
post May 16 2017, 10:53 AM
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The gt100 now seems only to help if the helix has a problem and seems it doesn't since they both have noise.

I'd say just try with the helix as thats the device you'll be using hopefully a very long time. In your current room with guitar+helix+headphone, try memorising that noise level with the guitar plugged but volume knob all the way down.

Lowering the volume pot is important so we won't confuse where the noise is coming from in different rooms (so we eliminate pickup noise). Since there isn't a noisegate in the preset you shared, these tests should give an idea of whats going on.


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Phil66
post May 16 2017, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ May 16 2017, 10:53 AM) *
I'd say just try with the helix as thats the device you'll be using hopefully a very long time.


laugh.gif It's me you're talking about Mertay, what about when Boss bring their competitor into the ring? I may just get GAS rolleyes.gif

I think I should change my GMC name to The Gas Master66 laugh.gif

I don't know if I'll get time in the next couple of days but definitely at the weekend.

Thanks for your help smile.gif


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Mertay
post May 16 2017, 11:48 AM
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hehe biggrin.gif

yeah no rush, let me know how thing go smile.gif


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klasaine
post May 16 2017, 02:38 PM
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Could be the actual type of light bulbs. I know that higher end studios get real anal about their brand and style of lighting. Hardware and bulb brand. And dimmers are a really big deal - as in most of them can cause terrible noise.

I didn't re-read every post but did you try testing with all the lights off (that would be on the same breaker)?

Also, have you tried just guitar and cable into an amplifier?

This post has been edited by klasaine: May 16 2017, 02:58 PM


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Phil66
post May 16 2017, 03:00 PM
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Thanks Ken, I'll try that.

The lights are on a different circuit though. My confusion is why the noise isn't there unless the strings are vibrating. I know with hum and gain noise, it's always there. This seems to be generated by the string vibrating. I haven't got much understanding of this kind of thing. It's only a problem if I want to keep the recorded note going until fade out. In the flip side, if I were live, the volume level would be greater so it would be more easily heard.

Cheers buddy.


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Phil66
post May 16 2017, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ May 16 2017, 10:53 AM) *
The gt100 now seems only to help if the helix has a problem and seems it doesn't since they both have noise.

I'd say just try with the helix as thats the device you'll be using hopefully a very long time. In your current room with guitar+helix+headphone, try memorising that noise level with the guitar plugged but volume knob all the way down.

Lowering the volume pot is important so we won't confuse where the noise is coming from in different rooms (so we eliminate pickup noise). Since there isn't a noisegate in the preset you shared, these tests should give an idea of whats going on.


Hmm, I'm getting somewhere, where I getting to I don't know, but somewhere.

Ok I usually have my inputs on the Scarlett at 12 o clock, I vary the input level using the output level of the Helix (at the moment). My Scarlett volume control is usually around 9 o clock and I can't hear the sound that you will hear in the Soundcloud file below. I can hear it if I turn Scarlett volume up to 12 o clock and beyond. To get this recording I put the Scarlett inputs up to maximum, the guitar and Helix volume of completely down. This is PC interference, it changes if I save something to the hard drive or use my scroll wheel. When I switch the PC off, you can hear all kinds of alien sounds as it is shutting down, then when it is off, just normal expected hum and hiss that you get with everything.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/pc-1

Also, this sound CANNOT be heard through the headphones with the PRS hooked up to the Helix, only through the Scarlett but if I hook up my Ibanez RG1570 to the Helix I can hear the PC noise but ONLY on the bridge pickup The noise that we hear when the strings are moving is NOT there when the volume pot is turned down on either guitar!

Please note, this is all done at bedroom levels so would be more prevalent should I ever be brave enough to be on stage laugh.gif


UPDATE:

I took the Helix LT into the garage, the sound was there but about half the amount. I came back upstairs and tried it through the Scarlett without PC on, same result as the garage. Went through my Valveking, on 20 setting, clean vol 5, master vol 5, I got the hiss when I brushed the string but I would say, it was relative to the sound in the garage.

My conclusion, main culprit is the PC, overall, it's my crappy mains AND PC combined, something I'm going to have to live with I think, until I can afford to get a house built with bespoke studio quality mains and noise suppression rolleyes.gif

What do you think?

Cheer


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Mertay
post May 16 2017, 09:50 PM
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Your reply makes sense to me.

There will always be some noise as our test preset was a distorted amp. If the noise is lowered in a different location then this was exactly the data we needed.I mentioned earlyer the noise I had on my computer was very similar to yours only lower. A computer is made of many parts, either itself in total or some parts in it may cause such a problem to varying degrees.

So like most of our houses the electricity isn't the best and combine that with computer interference and we got a problem.

I guess we can't do much for whats going inside the computer (?) but I wonder if some sort of grounding device for the computer exists to lower the noise?

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 16 2017, 09:51 PM


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