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verciazghra
post May 9 2017, 02:00 AM
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I often find myself feeling like I know what tone I want to create but I have no idea how to do it. I might get close once in a while and have a general feel for what different amps sound like, but when I get close and hear that I want "this, but with a different quality", it can be that I want a different color/frequency response, more umph in the bass of a palm muted sound. A lot of the times I do the logical things... eq, mic positions, change mics, change cabs, and then I compare to what I had and usually all those steps have taken me further from what I want and I can hear it getting further away as I keep trying.

Basically, what I'm wondering is, is there a book that talks about all the usual microphones, cabinets, effects, amp-heads, compressors, phasers, reverbs which are normally used when creating a guitar tone? One that talks about their intended uses and what they usually contribute to the sound, their "sonic profile" so to speak...

If anybody knows anything like that, please help me out. Just experimenting isn't working for me and it's actually making me even worse at creating tones.


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Mertay
post May 9 2017, 07:56 AM
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I don't think books will help you with that, they aren't good for any personalization of tone, music...

My quick suggestion is toneshaping through a backing track. The needed level/frequency balance (to flow with the track) will help you from not going to extremes and make things worst than before to a degree.


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klasaine
post May 9 2017, 02:10 PM
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Probably not in total as your hands have at least 50% to do with your tone but these may have a piece of info your missing ...

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Tone-Pursuing...d/dp/1435456157

https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Guitar-Tone...e/dp/0739075357

Google list, mostly micing techniques ... https://www.google.com/search?q=classic+gui...ar+amp+in+books


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verciazghra
post May 9 2017, 02:39 PM
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These are really cool suggestions. Thank you both! I'll buy a copy of each of those books and see if they're what I'm looking for.

I think the idea of making a tone to a backing track is also good.

I produce a lot of music and have very specific situations where I need to shape the sound to work. For example in this piece I'm working on for a game studio I want the slightly overdriven guitar to shine through more. And my approach to this was to eq out some of the mids and specific high frequencies in the rhythm guitars to leave room for it. But I need to change the microphones and cabinets(at bare minimum) on the overdriven guitar and have no idea to what. So I've basically tried 35 different setups and maybe 300 combinations of those setups with only worse results. This is what comes "closest".
Starts at 21seconds.
https://soundcloud.com/vercia/bossidea1

This post has been edited by verciazghra: May 9 2017, 02:41 PM


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Mertay
post May 9 2017, 03:37 PM
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These are raw recordings right? you only panned and adjusted level? cause eq'ing matters on where you want an instrument to sit in the mix. Based on the terrible sound quality of soundcloud, the guitar tone you mentioned needs a decrease of bass-lowmid area. Keep in mind it doesn't have to sound good individually but how it sound in the track.

After my first answer I posted this; https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...mp;#entry747639

You can use a limiter or clipper to check the mix on how it will sound roughly after mastering. This is a common problem as we're so used to listening mastered tracks dealing with mix sound can be a challenge.

Also very important, do mono checks actually even mix in mono frequently (specially for creating separation among instruments). There's a reason most DAW's have a mono button on their main mixers, rule is if it doesn't sound good in mono then the mix is not finished wink.gif


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verciazghra
post May 9 2017, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ May 9 2017, 02:37 PM) *
These are raw recordings right? you only panned and adjusted level? cause eq'ing matters on where you want an instrument to sit in the mix. Based on the terrible sound quality of soundcloud, the guitar tone you mentioned needs a decrease of bass-lowmid area. Keep in mind it doesn't have to sound good individually but how it sound in the track.

After my first answer I posted this; https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...mp;#entry747639

You can use a limiter or clipper to check the mix on how it will sound roughly after mastering. This is a common problem as we're so used to listening mastered tracks dealing with mix sound can be a challenge.

Also very important, do mono checks actually even mix in mono frequently (specially for creating separation among instruments). There's a reason most DAW's have a mono button on their main mixers, rule is if it doesn't sound good in mono then the mix is not finished wink.gif

Thank you very much for taking the time to help.
I frequently mix in mono. I was considering doing a punch in lowpass on the rhythm guitars too but I suspect that might color the sound too much. These are very raw, but I did an eqed version with decreesed lowmid frequencies on this track and it sounded way worse. I also took off some of the high end from the rhythm guitar but that also made it worse.

I don't think the tone is good enough as a tone(none of the tones, rhythm nor "lead"). So I come back to my original problem, I need to reamp these to sound better.


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"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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Mertay
post May 9 2017, 08:48 PM
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Its easier to darken a sound with eq instead of brighten/tightening, maybe focusing on the tightness of tone will be more rewarding when re-amping as then eq'ing would be easier. Do share the finished track later on, I'd like to hear the end-result of what you're after or atleast as close as you could get.

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 9 2017, 08:48 PM


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Todd Simpson
post May 9 2017, 09:29 PM
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As odd as it sounds I think I know what you are going for here smile.gif I'd suggest quad tracking the guitars and using as little gain as possible. Also, experiment with a notch eq filter. Just a downward spike at a given frequency. This will alter the entire sound field as it creates new frequency cancelleation and masking. As a result, you get the perception of a broader stereo field. Try to pan the guitars at 9, 11, 1 and 3 on clock dial.

Let me know if that works smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (verciazghra @ May 9 2017, 09:39 AM) *
These are really cool suggestions. Thank you both! I'll buy a copy of each of those books and see if they're what I'm looking for.

I think the idea of making a tone to a backing track is also good.

I produce a lot of music and have very specific situations where I need to shape the sound to work. For example in this piece I'm working on for a game studio I want the slightly overdriven guitar to shine through more. And my approach to this was to eq out some of the mids and specific high frequencies in the rhythm guitars to leave room for it. But I need to change the microphones and cabinets(at bare minimum) on the overdriven guitar and have no idea to what. So I've basically tried 35 different setups and maybe 300 combinations of those setups with only worse results. This is what comes "closest".
Starts at 21seconds.
https://soundcloud.com/vercia/bossidea1



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klasaine
post May 10 2017, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (verciazghra @ May 9 2017, 06:39 AM) *
I want the slightly overdriven guitar to shine through more.
This is what comes "closest".
Starts at 21seconds.
https://soundcloud.com/vercia/bossidea1


I'm gonna go 'old school' on you and ask ...
What guitar, pickups, amp (or model), cabinet (or model) and mic are you using?



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verciazghra
post May 10 2017, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ May 10 2017, 12:40 AM) *
I'm gonna go 'old school' on you and ask ...
What guitar, pickups, amp (or model), cabinet (or model) and mic are you using?

Hehe, well I'm running a RG2228 with EMG808 pickups through Overloud TH3 with these settings
Attached Image
which I "think" is an ENGL amp with some kind of marshall stack miced by a AKG C414 B-XLS.

This post has been edited by verciazghra: May 10 2017, 01:58 AM


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"To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time." -Leonard Bernstein

"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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verciazghra
post May 10 2017, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ May 9 2017, 08:29 PM) *
As odd as it sounds I think I know what you are going for here smile.gif I'd suggest quad tracking the guitars and using as little gain as possible. Also, experiment with a notch eq filter. Just a downward spike at a given frequency. This will alter the entire sound field as it creates new frequency cancelleation and masking. As a result, you get the perception of a broader stereo field. Try to pan the guitars at 9, 11, 1 and 3 on clock dial.

Let me know if that works smile.gif

Todd

Right on! I think this creates what I was looking for! It's still not exactly right in terms of tone but sonically it does what it's supposed to do now.
Sorry about the playing but my doctor thinks my wrist may be broken(#justskateboardthings).

This post has been edited by verciazghra: May 10 2017, 08:55 PM


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"To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time." -Leonard Bernstein

"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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klasaine
post May 10 2017, 05:34 AM
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What Todd said, or ...

Re-record that part. I'm a heavy proponent of the 'garbage in, garbage out' ethic. If you don't start with something very close to the sound you want then you're never really gonna get it. It'll always be a compromise.
I suggest this ...

1) Some type of Stratocaster or Telecaster style guitar with real single coil, normal output pkups.
2) Vox AC-30 or Fender deluxe reverb (or model) cranked up a bit for 'natural' gain. *Any OD pedal is gonna kill your organic top end.

These first two should get you where you want to be almost instantly.

Extras:
3) 1176 style compression (lightly).
4) Short to medium delay from a 'memory man' type of delay pedal or model/preset, 1 repeat.
5) Open back cabinet w/one 10" or 12" spkr.
6) Condenser and ribbon mic or condenser and dynamic mic. Move the mic to EQ it.

*You can double all that - just take the delay off or change the time length.

This post has been edited by klasaine: May 10 2017, 06:24 AM


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verciazghra
post May 10 2017, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ May 10 2017, 04:34 AM) *
What Todd said, or ...

Re-record that part. I'm a heavy proponent of the 'garbage in, garbage out' ethic. If you don't start with something very close to the sound you want then you're never really gonna get it. It'll always be a compromise.
I suggest this ...

1) Some type of Stratocaster or Telecaster style guitar with real single coil, normal output pkups.
2) Vox AC-30 or Fender deluxe reverb (or model) cranked up a bit for 'natural' gain. *Any OD pedal is gonna kill your organic top end.

These first two should get you where you want to be almost instantly.

Extras:
3) 1176 style compression (lightly).
4) Short to medium delay from a 'memory man' type of delay pedal or model/preset, 1 repeat.
5) Open back cabinet w/one 10" or 12" spkr.
6) Condenser and ribbon mic or condenser and dynamic mic. Move the mic to EQ it.

*You can double all that - just take the delay off or change the time length.

I'm so grateful for your time and the detail of your solution. I'll definitely try it. One point I feel a bit unsure about is if you're saying EMG808's are garbage or TH3 or that those kinds of pickups just aren't for that kind of sound? I'm so clueless when it comes to this since I've only had three electric guitars with highend pickups(which the EMG808s also are tho they're not that cheap).

I just bought a Suhr with extremely nice pickups and a true temperament neck that sounds beautiful. It has singlecoils on neck and middle with a 5-way switch. Could that do the job you think?(I'll try it anyway but it's in the shops getting a setup at the moment.)

Anyway thank you very much I'm getting the books and trying your solution!


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"To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time." -Leonard Bernstein

"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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klasaine
post May 10 2017, 02:44 PM
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Sorry for the misunderstanding.
The expression 'garbage in, garbage out' is not referring to the gear.
It means that if you record a part that's not really what you want - sound wise or playing wise - you'll never really be able to "fix it in the mix" later.

The Suhr will get you closer but a bridge position single coil will be better suited to what you're looking for.
Can you split the coils of the bridge pkup on that Suhr? If not try the middle pkup by itself.
Regardless, it will be better suited to the task than the EMGs.
And again, try a Vox or Fender style amp or amp model/profile.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.


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verciazghra
post May 10 2017, 03:05 PM
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No problem! You've been teaching me a lot and I'm very happy to be on the right track again after fumbling in the dark for ages:)

I'm pretty sure I can split the bridge pickup on the Suhr. I hope so biggrin.gif


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"To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time." -Leonard Bernstein

"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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Todd Simpson
post May 10 2017, 11:07 PM
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Ken has a point with the EMGs, as they are really not designed for this type of tone imho. You can get close though smile.gif But using your SUHR would probably be a better idea as the picups and guitar are probably already a little closer to the sound you are talking about.

As for my tips, Happy to help smile.gif I hope it at least got you to the next step in terms of what you are going for. As you were talking about it, I could kinda hear it in my head. I use Th2/Th3 as well, as you know, and I'm pretty sure you can get there. You may need to swap the ENGL out for a slightly less mean, less compressed head, perhaps the Brunetti Mercury? Brunetti is a very small boutique amp shop that makes very expensive, very vintage sounding, hand made tube amps. TH2 is based in Italy so they were able to work directly with Brunetti to get very close in terms of sound/feel for their pricey / vintagey/ tube amp line. The mercury may be a bit closer to where you are wanting to go than the Engl as it has a more open character and less compression, more air, ettc. :smile.gif YOu can always run two signal paths in one patch and mix them at the end so you can leave the engl and just add the brunnetti and use the mixer at the end of the th2 chain to blend the two smile.gif Also, the lynch head is half way between, more mean than the brunneti, more vintage than the engl.

The LYNCH head is based on the modular Lynch Randall heads that let you swap out preamps. So there is a list of preamps that you can pick, and it always emulations the tube power section of the lynch amp with whatever preamp you select. The TOP BOOST preamp on the lynch is sorta VOX and the the PLEXI preamp is sorta vintage marshall. Try those two smile.gif (I think ken said the same thing, spot on per usual!)

Attached Image

I think it's a testament to the sound quality of Th2 that Ken asked what cabs/mics/amps you are using smile.gif Answer? Software. Love that plugin smile.gif

P.S. Ken is spot on with the garbage in/out comment imho. The performance and tone the originate in the fingers can only be tweaked so much. If you don't like the performance, start over with it. Also, ,you may need to swap guitars as was mentioned to it's a good chance to try again smile.gif I hope your wrist is not broken!!! I hope you are not getting CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME as well. You do your hand/arm stretches before playing right?


QUOTE (verciazghra @ May 9 2017, 09:33 PM) *
Right on! I think this creates what I was looking for! It's still not exactly right in terms of tone but sonically it does what it's supposed to do now.
Sorry about the playing but my doctor thinks my wrist may be broken(#justskateboardthings).


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: May 10 2017, 11:21 PM


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Phil66
post May 12 2017, 09:14 PM
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Worth a read I guess https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Amps-Effects-...r/dp/1118899997

wink.gif


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Todd Simpson
post May 13 2017, 09:31 PM
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The more the merrier smile.gif Our own GMC WIKI has wads of great articles about sound and recording and about setting up your own home studio! Go Fran!!

QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 12 2017, 04:14 PM) *


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Phil66
post May 13 2017, 10:45 PM
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You quoted me and said "go Fran" tongue.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ May 13 2017, 09:31 PM) *
The more the merrier smile.gif Our own GMC WIKI has wads of great articles about sound and recording and about setting up your own home studio! Go Fran!!



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Israelmore Ayivor
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Todd Simpson
post May 13 2017, 11:31 PM
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GO PHIL!!! smile.gif Go fran for being our WIKI GOD smile.gif

QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 13 2017, 05:45 PM) *
You quoted me and said "go Fran" tongue.gif laugh.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: May 15 2017, 02:46 AM


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