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> Biab, Wrong purchase?
Phil66
post Jun 25 2017, 08:30 PM
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I've just bought Band In A Box because I wanted to make my creativity workshop entries more complete. I think it's a mistake.

For example, when I was creating THIS piece, I wanted to add some drums with the rhythm guitar but leaving the gaps. I can't see how to do that in BIAB.

I've just had the default Jazz backing track playing in it and I selected the drum kit, when I clicked on the drum I wanted, there was a delay, making it hard to hit the beat.

Maybe it's just too big for my level of composing skills? It looks like it could be great with a lot of time spent with it. I think for creating backing tracks,THIS would be better for me cool.gif I think I'd get more out of that with less time fannying around. They're only £79, I just paid £144 for BIAB!

What do you think? Should I ask for my money back? They have an unconditional 30 refund policy. What would you recommend for simplicity?

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Rammikin
post Jun 25 2017, 09:22 PM
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I use BIAB for times I want to practice soloing over a specific chord sequence. Just a few clicks and type in some chords and you're on your way. Its pretty simple once you grasp the basics. I've never used a Trio, but it seems to me it would be absolute hell to try to create a sequence with the Trio compared to using BIAB where you've got a computer screen to help you understand the sequence. Plus BIAB is infinitely more flexible and you can save your sequences to a file. For example, put a . after a chord name to drop instruments out of a bar.

That said, I wouldn't use BIAB for composing a song. There are a lot of styles available, but they sound pretty canned, so I would only use it for practice.

On the other hand if you want to compose a song but don't want to bother actually creating the instrument tracks yourself, BIAB is the right tool for the job and it has no serious competition.


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Phil66
post Jun 25 2017, 10:10 PM
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Thanks Rammikin

What about that drum issue with the delay. It looks like you should be able to add drums live but it seems impossible
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Phil


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GeneT95
post Jun 26 2017, 12:01 AM
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Here is my bent nickle opinion. Spend it as you wish.

I tried a number of programs to create and practice, BiaB, Fruity Loops, Garage Band, Protools (recently). I keep coming back to Ableton Live. You can get the intro version of ableton live for $99. And I'm almost positive it would do most everything you need for creation. I also found most of the programs I tried earlier stale and canned without the life to them that I needed to actually be enjoyable for long. I did this a long time a go trying to learn how to create with ableton live for one of the Creativity Workouts.



It is all loops I found on the internet. And although I find much I would redo/change/replay with it now, I was great learning. I found a drum loops, voice sounds, etc and simply arranged them in a particular order. I played short 4-8 bar of rhythm and just looped them to create structure. And then tried my best to solo over it.

My advice would be to create in the following way when starting. Find drum loops you think are interesting from the internet that sound decent, either use Ableton's nascent instruments to make a chord progression or find a loop on the internet or better yet practice your rhythm and chords and make short loops of your own that you can duplicate and create an arrangement, , and practice/solo away. (Ableton can use midi files of progressions but that is a little more involved/advanced)

Any program you decide to use will cost something and all of them you have to learn how to use them and spend time figuring out how to get them to do what you want. I would suggest something like Ableton Live because at $99 for the intro version it is a good buy and it will Grow with you rather then become obsolete. The free version of Protools is an option, but I find for me that Ableton is easier, faster, and more intuitive to use. There are probably other looper programs to do the same, even free ones. Although, I'm not sure they have the same ability to record and arrange tracks like Ableton. Go that way first I guess if they are free and seemingly decent.

Here is a link to some drum loops I found just with an internet search.
https://www.looperman.com/loops/cats/royalt...s-wavs-download

And I don't mean to hijack the thread. Just give you some options. I think your options depend on whether you want something just to 'practice' with or to 'create'. There are simpler options if its only a tool for practice than Ableton. If you want to create, I feel getting a program that is cheap but has potential for expansion, growth, and more a better option.

This post has been edited by GeneT95: Jun 26 2017, 12:05 AM
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Rammikin
post Jun 26 2017, 01:49 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 25 2017, 09:10 PM) *
What about that drum issue with the delay. It looks like you should be able to add drums live but it seems impossible


Not sure I follow what you're trying to do, but I think the best way to do that would be to mute and unmute the drums, instead of loading drums.

As I mentioned, for composition, if your priority is to assemble something quickly, BIAB is a good choice. But, like Gene says, you'll get better results if you take the time to assemble a composition yourself in a DAW. Loops can be a good option. The problem is, in order to get loops to sound distinctive, you need to manipulate them. For that purpose, I can recommend a virtual instrument I wrote called Stylus RMX smile.gif.



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Todd Simpson
post Jun 26 2017, 02:01 AM
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Id have to agree with the general consensus. It's killer for quick and dirty practice, but I don't think it was ever designed as replacement for a real composition tool like a DAW (garage band/logic/reaper). So yeah, quick and dirty, stomp on and solo. But that's mostly it's strong suit smile.gif


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Phil66
post Jun 26 2017, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (GeneT95 @ Jun 26 2017, 12:01 AM) *
Here is my bent nickle opinion. Spend it as you wish.

I tried a number of programs to create and practice, BiaB, Fruity Loops, Garage Band, Protools (recently). I keep coming back to Ableton Live. You can get the intro version of ableton live for $99. And I'm almost positive it would do most everything you need for creation. I also found most of the programs I tried earlier stale and canned without the life to them that I needed to actually be enjoyable for long. I did this a long time a go trying to learn how to create with ableton live for one of the Creativity Workouts.



It is all loops I found on the internet. And although I find much I would redo/change/replay with it now, I was great learning. I found a drum loops, voice sounds, etc and simply arranged them in a particular order. I played short 4-8 bar of rhythm and just looped them to create structure. And then tried my best to solo over it.

My advice would be to create in the following way when starting. Find drum loops you think are interesting from the internet that sound decent, either use Ableton's nascent instruments to make a chord progression or find a loop on the internet or better yet practice your rhythm and chords and make short loops of your own that you can duplicate and create an arrangement, , and practice/solo away. (Ableton can use midi files of progressions but that is a little more involved/advanced)

Any program you decide to use will cost something and all of them you have to learn how to use them and spend time figuring out how to get them to do what you want. I would suggest something like Ableton Live because at $99 for the intro version it is a good buy and it will Grow with you rather then become obsolete. The free version of Protools is an option, but I find for me that Ableton is easier, faster, and more intuitive to use. There are probably other looper programs to do the same, even free ones. Although, I'm not sure they have the same ability to record and arrange tracks like Ableton. Go that way first I guess if they are free and seemingly decent.

Here is a link to some drum loops I found just with an internet search.
https://www.looperman.com/loops/cats/royalt...s-wavs-download

And I don't mean to hijack the thread. Just give you some options. I think your options depend on whether you want something just to 'practice' with or to 'create'. There are simpler options if its only a tool for practice than Ableton. If you want to create, I feel getting a program that is cheap but has potential for expansion, growth, and more a better option.


That's great thanks, I have Albeton Lite that I got free with my MIDI Keyboard. I'll look into it.


QUOTE (Rammikin @ Jun 26 2017, 01:49 AM) *
Not sure I follow what you're trying to do, but I think the best way to do that would be to mute and unmute the drums, instead of loading drums.


Thanks,
There is a row of buttons in the upper right section. Guitar, Piano, Drums etc. When you click the drums button it shows a drum kit along with a whistle, hands for clapping etc. I can only get them to sound if I click the record button but when I click a drum, there is a big delay, before I hear it.

I'll look into that program wink.gif



QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 26 2017, 02:01 AM) *
Id have to agree with the general consensus. It's killer for quick and dirty practice, but I don't think it was ever designed as replacement for a real composition tool like a DAW (garage band/logic/reaper). So yeah, quick and dirty, stomp on and solo. But that's mostly it's strong suit smile.gif


Thanks,

I'm thinking I'll get a refund and try to learn Albeton. I might still get a Trio or Trio+ just for a bit of unpredictable drunken fun smile.gif


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yoncopin
post Jun 26 2017, 04:00 PM
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I've been working a lot on soloing over different chord progressions too and this thread inspired me to look for a tool to help with that too. Has anyone tried this? AutoTheory I think software is the way to go here as the UI should be more flexible than the Trio (though that does look cool). I usually try to make progressions with a MIDI keyboard in the DAW, but it's slow because I have to refer to chord charts constantly, etc... AutoTheory is standalone and only $50, it just intercepts the MIDI between the DAW and keyboard, seems like a great time saver and you can use your own sounds.


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Rammikin
post Jun 26 2017, 06:09 PM
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AFAIK, Audiotheory doesn't build complete arrangements like BIAB. It's nice for using a single note to input chords, but I don't think you can do anything like you can do with BIAB, where with a couple of mouse clicks you can generate an entire arrangement with a full band.

BIAB really is unique. The only alternatives are to spend more time building your own arrangements. For creating original compositions, that extra effort is probably worthwhile, but for practicing, BIAB can be very useful.

Phil, sorry, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. If you'd like the drums to drop out for a measure or two, just mute the drums for those measures, and you won't hear any drums when those measures play.





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Phil66
post Jun 26 2017, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Jun 26 2017, 06:09 PM) *
Phil, sorry, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. If you'd like the drums to drop out for a measure or two, just mute the drums for those measures, and you won't hear any drums when those measures play.


Thanks for giving me your time Rammikin smile.gif

Here is a video, I'm probably doing something stoopid. I was testing to see if I could add drums at a random point, mainly for the creativity workshop as they don't always follow musical convention, well, mine don't anyway laugh.gif

You will see that when I click, the sound happens later.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=tQUJBvnZgVE


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Rammikin
post Jun 26 2017, 09:37 PM
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It looks like a latency problem with your audio interface, but playing notes by clicking with a mouse probably won't work very well compared to using a midi keyboard or keypad.

Alternatively, you could draw in the notes with the mouse in your DAW. If you don't want to create drum tracks from scratch, you could use midi files, for example from Groove Monkee, to use as a starting point. But that customization will come at a price because that will take longer than using BIAB to assemble a track.


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Phil66
post Jun 26 2017, 10:11 PM
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I'm all confused with it to be honest sad.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 27 2017, 02:39 AM
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Software, like guitar, takes wads of time to mess with before it starts to feel really comfy smile.gif Maybe it would help if we all understood your goals here? Are you trying to

1.)Find a way to create quick compositions from scratch
2.)Be able to tweak existing compositions in real time
3.)Some mix of the above?

What RAMMIKIN is talking about is just using a midid keyboard in stead of your mouse to enter hits. The mouse may not be the best tool for this job. A keyboard with a usb connection would be great smile.gif You can get them cheap too. Some even have strike pads in addition to keys which is handy.

If you are an iphone user by chance, you can do what you are talking about, I think anyway, in the mobile version of garage band. Each instrument can play itself. You can then tweak and export a file which you can pull in to your daw smile.gif


Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 26 2017, 05:11 PM) *
I'm all confused with it to be honest sad.gif



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Phil66
post Jun 27 2017, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 27 2017, 02:39 AM) *
Software, like guitar, takes wads of time to mess with before it starts to feel really comfy smile.gif Maybe it would help if we all understood your goals here? Are you trying to

1.)Find a way to create quick compositions from scratch
2.)Be able to tweak existing compositions in real time
3.)Some mix of the above?

What RAMMIKIN is talking about is just using a midid keyboard in stead of your mouse to enter hits. The mouse may not be the best tool for this job. A keyboard with a usb connection would be great smile.gif You can get them cheap too. Some even have strike pads in addition to keys which is handy.

If you are an iphone user by chance, you can do what you are talking about, I think anyway, in the mobile version of garage band. Each instrument can play itself. You can then tweak and export a file which you can pull in to your daw smile.gif


Todd



Thanks Todd,

A mixture of all three really but initially to embellish my creativity workshop pieces.

I have one of THESE midi keyboards. For the record, I wasn't expecting to use the mouse permanently, I was just having a quick look to see how the drum kit work along with a default song.

I'm thinking of going over to Albeton as suggested above as I already have a copy of the Lite version that came with the keyboard.

I'm not an iPhone user so I can't go that route.

Cheers


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Phil66
post Jun 27 2017, 09:03 PM
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Got my refund, they were great, no hard sell trying to get me to stay. smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 28 2017, 01:41 AM
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Great news! That keyboard is perfect. It can do just about anything you need. Ableton is very much about live type stuff and real time interaction. Great that you already have the starter version to work with!

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 27 2017, 04:03 PM) *
Got my refund, they were great, no hard sell trying to get me to stay. smile.gif


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