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> Ngd: Yngwie Strat
Todd Simpson
post Jul 9 2017, 09:26 PM
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NGD : YNGWIE STRAT! Just one catch. It's from CHINA!!! Yup, I broke down and bought one of these things to see if I liked scalloped necks or not. I can safely say it doesn't seem to make a huge difference to me. It does sort of physically remind the fingers not to overcommit to a single note, but I've already trained my fingers for that. So I play with a fairly light touch already. I can see why some folks like it though, especially if they normally play with a heavy touch. It reminds you that you don't need to hit the wood. Just between the frets.

Anyhoo, after one night with this guitar I decided to give her back to the world and I put her on offerup. I got an offer right away and she is shipping out Monday. It was brief, but nice to know her smile.gif I was expecting far less from the guitar actually, especially given the price point under $200. The pickups were not nearly as bad as I thought theyd be and the action wasn't bad either The guitar had heft to it and didn't feel cheap. Every year these get better. It's going to get harder and harder to tell the difference in coming years imho.

Anyone else bought a chinese copy of something?
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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 9 2017, 09:27 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 10 2017, 02:24 PM
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Nice! I've tried a Gibson Les Paul Standard from China, and I was impressed because I expected much less from it. It looked like the real thing, and it sounded and felt ok for the price.



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Todd Simpson
post Jul 10 2017, 08:51 PM
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I was really shocked that it was as good as it was. I expected far less. The build quality was surprisingly good given the price, the guitar was under $200 so I expected very little. But it did play and sound like a real guitar. I just wanted to try a scalloped neck really. I then wen't ahead and put it back on the market and it's already sold! The cycle of gear smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 10 2017, 09:24 AM) *
Nice! I've tried a Gibson Les Paul Standard from China, and I was impressed because I expected much less from it. It looked like the real thing, and it sounded and felt ok for the price.



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Mertay
post Jul 10 2017, 11:17 PM
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Usually complaints start through time with such guitars like frets melting quickly or hardware rust...


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AK Rich
post Jul 11 2017, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 10 2017, 05:24 AM) *
Nice! I've tried a Gibson Les Paul Standard from China, and I was impressed because I expected much less from it. It looked like the real thing, and it sounded and felt ok for the price.

As far as I can tell, there are no Gibson Les Pauls produced in China. Only Epiphones are produced there and the best quality Epiphones are made in Indonesia.

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Featu...gibson-usa.aspx

http://www.samash.com/lp/gibson+les+paul

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Todd Simpson
post Jul 11 2017, 07:45 PM
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He's not talking about guitars built by Gibson AKRICH smile.gif He's talking about "bootleg" copy guitars, just like this one in the first post. These are not sanctioned by the original vendor. They are grey/black market goods. Like fake Gucci hand bags and such.

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jul 11 2017, 12:48 PM) *
As far as I can tell, there are no Gibson Les Pauls produced in China. Only Epiphones are produced there and the best quality Epiphones are made in Indonesia.

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Featu...gibson-usa.aspx

http://www.samash.com/lp/gibson+les+paul


I could see that. After playing it for about an hour, I noticed the silver dust on my fingers from something on the guitar, strings, frets, not sure.

I was impressed more than I thought I would be by the sheer heft of it. It had decent tone as well. I expected far less for the money and from China. As a starter guitar, this would work ok and look cool at the same time which is what many young folks starting out want to begin with. Which is why Ibanez for example started making cheap indo versions of their best guitars. For example, the prestige Ibby that KRIS plays has a cheap indo version that looks just like it, but is not on the same level of instrument at all. The neck is fatter, the woods are not as good, the pickups are nowhere close, etc. But it looks just like it for $500. For a young student starting out, it's a great way to go smile.gif Here is a picture. Looks nice for the price smile.gif Seen it as low as $425

Attached Image

the real one is about $1500

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Todd

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 10 2017, 06:17 PM) *
Usually complaints start through time with such guitars like frets melting quickly or hardware rust...


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 11 2017, 08:11 PM


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AK Rich
post Jul 12 2017, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 11 2017, 10:45 AM) *
He's not talking about guitars built by Gibson AKRICH smile.gif He's talking about "bootleg" copy guitars, just like this one in the first post. These are not sanctioned by the original vendor. They are grey/black market goods. Like fake Gucci hand bags and such.
Todd

Yeah that's what I thought . Counterfeit Chinese junk. Folks are getting ripped off buying that crap. Personally, I try to buy as little as possible from China. I have found most things made there and sold in the US to be garbage. You get what you pay for.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/featu...eitGibsons.aspx

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Todd Simpson
post Jul 12 2017, 05:50 PM
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Well, it's certainly counterfeit, but for $200 I would not call it a "Ripoff" by any means. I've played $200 guitars that were not even close to this one on quality and they certainly didn't have a scalloped neck. For the price the instrument was actually not bat at all. That was what surprised me so much. Gabe seems to have had a similar experience. The truth of the matter is that so much of what we buy in the states is either made or sourced from China there is almost no way around it.
Even clothes for example that say "made in the usa" use fabric sourced from China.

So you can try to stay away from the "made in China" label, but you can't really stay away from Chinese products. They are simply pervasive in our economy. Even if you "buy American" the parts/bits/materials, are quite often from China.

But back to the guitar, I don't think a couple hundred bucks is a ripoff by any means and I was able to sell the guitar, as a chinese copy, within a week. So there is clearly a market for that stuff smile.gif


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jul 12 2017, 11:12 AM) *
Yeah that's what I thought . Counterfeit Chinese junk. Folks are getting ripped off buying that crap. Personally, I try to buy as little as possible from China. I have found most things made there and sold in the US to be garbage. You get what you pay for.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/featu...eitGibsons.aspx



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AK Rich
post Jul 12 2017, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 12 2017, 08:50 AM) *
Well, it's certainly counterfeit, but for $200 I would not call it a "Ripoff" by any means. I've played $200 guitars that were not even close to this one on quality and they certainly didn't have a scalloped neck. For the price the instrument was actually not bat at all. That was what surprised me so much. Gabe seems to have had a similar experience. The truth of the matter is that so much of what we buy in the states is either made or sourced from China there is almost no way around it.
Even clothes for example that say "made in the usa" use fabric sourced from China.

So you can try to stay away from the "made in China" label, but you can't really stay away from Chinese products. They are simply pervasive in our economy. Even if you "buy American" the parts/bits/materials, are quite often from China.

But back to the guitar, I don't think a couple hundred bucks is a ripoff by any means and I was able to sell the guitar, as a chinese copy, within a week. So there is clearly a market for that stuff smile.gif

I was referring to the many people that have been swindled by being sold counterfeit instruments made in China, (which are illegal btw) that are being passed off as the real deal. Even if they are not claiming that they are made in the USA, they are still counterfeit and illegal if they carry the name of Gibson or Fender etc illegitimately. I have no idea if the one you bought is legit or not but if it isn't, then you are encouraging and supporting illegal black market trade if you knowingly purchased a counterfeit.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/featu...eitGibsons.aspx

Yes it is pretty much impossible to avoid anything produced at least partly or in some way from China but I can certainly avoid the obvious and avoid supporting the economy of a country that has been ripping off the rest of the world for generations by passing off something that they copied from someone else and passing it off as their own.

https://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/lewis.pdf

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/fi...the-economy.pdf

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/08/30/count...esses/id=12336/

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Todd Simpson
post Jul 13 2017, 08:30 PM
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The one I bought was NOT legit, which is why it was $200. Real YNGWIE strats NEVER cost that little. It was coming from China so it was pretty clear that it was a fake, but as I mentioned, great price and nice guitar for the price. I sold it right away to a excited buyer who was familiar with china clone guitars. I remember when Lars Ulrich went around saying downloading MP3s is illegal. Of course it is, but honestly so what? Sorta the same with china guitars. If they are up front about it, being a fake, I see no problem with it personally. They can badge it any way they like. It's China. smile.gif

But yeah, folks being told it's a real guitar and over paying is tragic. But it's always buyer beware on Ebay. Usually it's noobs who get taken and then they can get refunded with buyer protection so it works out. I'm a "copy left" person and support the Pirate Party so I have zero problem with fakes as long as they are honest about it being fake smile.gif To each his own though.

But yeah, like you said, it's pretty much impossible to avoid "buying chinese". Just impossible. Our vendors source materials from China and put "made in the USA" on the sticker for the product. It's just how the world works. Labor jobs go where labor and material is cheap and that's still china for many things. It may be India in the future or Indonesia. But either way, there is no real way around it.

Todd


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jul 12 2017, 06:40 PM) *
I was referring to the many people that have been swindled by being sold counterfeit instruments made in China, (which are illegal btw) that are being passed off as the real deal. Even if they are not claiming that they are made in the USA, they are still counterfeit and illegal if they carry the name of Gibson or Fender etc illegitimately. I have no idea if the one you bought is legit or not but if it isn't, then you are encouraging and supporting illegal black market trade if you knowingly purchased a counterfeit. It's supply and demand that supports the black market. Always has, always will.

http://www.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/featu...eitGibsons.aspx

Yes it is pretty much impossible to avoid anything produced at least partly or in some way from China but I can certainly avoid the obvious and avoid supporting the economy of a country that has been ripping off the rest of the world for generations by passing off something that they copied from someone else and passing it off as their own.

https://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/lewis.pdf

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/fi...the-economy.pdf

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/08/30/count...esses/id=12336/



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AK Rich
post Jul 15 2017, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 13 2017, 11:30 AM) *
The one I bought was NOT legit, which is why it was $200. Real YNGWIE strats NEVER cost that little. It was coming from China so it was pretty clear that it was a fake, but as I mentioned, great price and nice guitar for the price. I sold it right away to a excited buyer who was familiar with china clone guitars. I remember when Lars Ulrich went around saying downloading MP3s is illegal. Of course it is, but honestly so what? Sorta the same with china guitars. If they are up front about it, being a fake, I see no problem with it personally. They can badge it any way they like. It's China. smile.gif

But yeah, folks being told it's a real guitar and over paying is tragic. But it's always buyer beware on Ebay. Usually it's noobs who get taken and then they can get refunded with buyer protection so it works out. I'm a "copy left" person and support the Pirate Party so I have zero problem with fakes as long as they are honest about it being fake smile.gif To each his own though.

But yeah, like you said, it's pretty much impossible to avoid "buying chinese". Just impossible. Our vendors source materials from China and put "made in the USA" on the sticker for the product. It's just how the world works. Labor jobs go where labor and material is cheap and that's still china for many things. It may be India in the future or Indonesia. But either way, there is no real way around it.

Todd

Thanks for summing that up. As to your question of so what, let's start with this.

The federal criminal laws that prohibit any person from trafficking in counterfeit goods and services apply not only to the counterfeiter—the law applies with equal force to any individual or company that knowingly sells a counterfeit product. (18 U.S.C. 2320). This law, known as the Trademark Counterfeiting Act of 1984, carries substantial monetary fines (up to $5 million) and prison time (up to 20 years imprisonment or in some cases life) for individuals and companies who violate the Act.
https://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

I am pretty sure this is a felony, which means if convicted you could loose most of your 2nd amendment rights and in many states , your right to vote among other things.

And then lets talk about some other things that you seem to support and even encourage in this thread.

Counterfeit goods cost the American economy as
much as $250 billion a year, and counterfeiting is
responsible for the loss of over 750,000 American
jobs (U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
www.thetruecosts.org; Federal Bureau of
Investigation).

In 2006 over 80% of counterfeit goods seized by US Customs originated in China.

If you haven't read this, you really should because what I have quoted so far is just the tip of the iceberg. It gets much worse.

https://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/lewis.pdf

If you support counterfeit goods from China and other countries then you also support things like child labor and sweat shops, organized crime, the introduction of dangerous products into the market, diminished tax revenues.
I wonder if this stuff is listed as part of the Pirate Party platform.

It's a good thing for you that this isn't my website because I would have to let you go as a representative of GMC for promoting such illegal activity.

Here are some more answers to "So what"?

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/fi...the-economy.pdf

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/08/30/count...esses/id=12336/


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 15 2017, 07:32 PM
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I hate to break it to ya, but if you shop at Walmart or any chain store, you are supporting child labor. They get very cheap products from all over the world and many places use child labor for source materials/packaging/etc. Then the products come in to a "legit" vendor and come to the states. I've seen a few documentaries on this so far. The only way around it is not to buy anything and make your own clothes/shoes etc. So being on a high horse about it is a bit of a moot point. Whether we like it or not, buying a cheap shirt at walmart supports all kinds of bad things in the world that we don't want to know about but folks still buy from walmart.

I'm against child labor. But I'm sure I own something built by a kid, nike shoes for example. That's the sad part. we all own things made by children whether we realize it or not.

As for the law breaking, yup, it's a crime to make counterfeit goods. Thankfully I'm not making them. smile.gif As for costing the economy, illegal drugs cost our economy billions each year. Then we spent another 27 Billion to fight drugs that we can't stop from coming in. Simple supply and demand.
http://drugwarfacts.org/chapter/economics

I'd be more up in arms about that personally. As it's something we can change in terms of law and policy. You can't stop people in other countries from making counterfeit goods. If that were possible they would not be so readily available.

Anyhoo


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AK Rich
post Jul 15 2017, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 15 2017, 10:32 AM) *
I hate to break it to ya, but if you shop at Walmart or any chain store, you are supporting child labor. They get very cheap products from all over the world and many places use child labor for source materials/packaging/etc. Then the products come in to a "legit" vendor and come to the states. I've seen a few documentaries on this so far. The only way around it is not to buy anything and make your own clothes/shoes etc. So being on a high horse about it is a bit of a moot point. Whether we like it or not, buying a cheap shirt at walmart supports all kinds of bad things in the world that we don't want to know about but folks still buy from walmart.

I'm against child labor. But I'm sure I own something built by a kid, nike shoes for example. That's the sad part. we all own things made by children whether we realize it or not.

As for the law breaking, yup, it's a crime to make counterfeit goods. Thankfully I'm not making them. smile.gif As for costing the economy, illegal drugs cost our economy billions each year. Then we spent another 27 Billion to fight drugs that we can't stop from coming in. Simple supply and demand.
http://drugwarfacts.org/chapter/economics

I'd be more up in arms about that personally. As it's something we can change in terms of law and policy. You can't stop people in other countries from making counterfeit goods. If that were possible they would not be so readily available.

Anyhoo

The fact is that you are far more likely to be supporting child labor by buying and selling counterfeit goods from China (nevermind organized crime) than you would by buying items that are considered legit. But you are probably correct to a degree about products from China which is why China should never have been allowed to enter the WTO in my opinion. And when they were allowed into the WTO, that is when the floodgates were really opened to the counterfeit trade which has exploded since then. And it is also a fact that there are plenty of clothes and other products that you can buy where you can be guaranteed that you are not supporting child labor.

You mentioned that you didn't have a problem with counterfeit goods as long as the folks selling such things were up front about it, but the fact of the matter is that there is no difference whatsoever as far as the law is concerned.

And it's not only a crime to make these counterfeits as you stated but it is also a crime to sell or resell them which is something you seem to have overlooked or ignored, I don't know. At any rate, you are part of the problem when instead, you could be doing more personally to avoid supporting such practices instead of just throwing your hands in the air and saying that there is nothing that you can do about it, when in fact you can.

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Todd Simpson
post Jul 16 2017, 12:19 AM
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To each his own smile.gif As I mentioned, unless you make your own clothes/shoes, you too are supporting child labor. If somebody wants to buy a fake guitar on ebay, I say let em. For items under $1,000, it's not worth it for a company to serve you papers. So those transactions will probably keep happening. Just like walmart and nike will keep happening. For you though I'd say don't do it. Solved smile.gif

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Rammikin
post Jul 16 2017, 03:25 AM
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I'm with Rich on this. Counterfeit is counterfeit. The maker of that guitar is illegally stealing the fruits of somebody else's hard work. I don't blame you for buying the guitar to try it, but the fact is buying it rewards the counterfeiter. Plus, once it gets into circulation, it's just a matter of time before somebody gets defrauded by a seller who passes it off as the real thing. This is not the same as some kids downloading mo3s. Sorry to get on a soapbox about this but if you had your work widely pirated in China, India, and Korea like me, you'd probably feel strongly about it too smile.gif.


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AK Rich
post Jul 16 2017, 07:27 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 15 2017, 03:19 PM) *
To each his own smile.gif As I mentioned, unless you make your own clothes/shoes, you too are supporting child labor. If somebody wants to buy a fake guitar on ebay, I say let em. For items under $1,000, it's not worth it for a company to serve you papers. So those transactions will probably keep happening. Just like walmart and nike will keep happening. For you though I'd say don't do it. Solved smile.gif

A quick google search will quickly reveal the fallacy of your argument about clothing. There are at least hundreds of businesses that make clothes in this country that source all the materials used to make those clothes from right here in this country as well, in fact it is a growing trend and there is absolutely no child labor involved in those companies that manufacture their clothing in this way. And for me, I will do my best, as I have been, to avoid goods, counterfeit or not, that are made in China.
In fact since you are so flippant on the matter and support a black market counterfeit trade with China, I will stop supporting you as well. So please, don't bother sending me any more private messages to take part in your challenges or any other project you may start here at GMC. Thanks. smile.gif

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Mertay
post Jul 16 2017, 12:42 PM
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Its been more than a year since I bought my Jackson JS11, its currently 150 dolars in USA.

I've used it as a travel guitar and it was outside the house atleast once a week, imagine the heat/cold/rain etc. ...and it plays and works as good as the day I bought it. Congrats to Jackson that engineered something affordable but durable.

I'm ok with Chinese guitars coming from a proper company but I'm also against fake brands+guitars.


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GeneT95
post Jul 16 2017, 02:30 PM
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There is a difference between buying something made in a country and sold anywhere in a legit store/venue and buying something that is made, stamped, and sold with he intent of counterfiet.

That difference may be shades of grey, but there is a difference. There are many arguments for and against the first case; ethical, global, national, political, out of sight out of mind, etc.

There are few arguments that really adequately excuse knowingly buying counterfeit, recommending such, or profiting for the same. None of them involve the claim that it's ok because legitimate products involve the same vice and greed that counterfeiting does and the veneer of legitimacy is a fallacy to the extent that makes knowingly supporting counterfeiting to be ok.

The argument that its ok for me to knowingly buy a counterfeit guitar or recommend such because it is likely or possibly made by the same deplorable or questionable process as a shirt from walmart is not valid. It may be an excuse to do such, or a rationalization, but it is a fallacy of logic.

In essence, the argument is that buying a shirt or a shoe from a known company that is likely/possibly made by child labor and a counterfeit guitar that is more likely made by child labor is the same. Hence buying either of them is no different with respect to child labor and one can seemingly absolve the ethical quandary of buying counterfeit.

It is a rationalization that states, those of us that buy Nike and not a counterfeit guitar are either foolish, stupid, or selfish enough to draw an imaginary line somewhere and convince ourselves that Nike is more ethical and moral. Those of us that buy neither are unrealistic by drawing no line and finding evil in both and therefore resolving not to support because the world is as the world is and there is no fighting against it.

And Those of us that buy both are realists by arguing both are made by the same process and therefore not distinct and no line needs to be drawn. In reality, the evil that may be child labor, stealing others work, or supporting a country that has ideas regarding life/human rights different than our own is not enough to limit what we can have. It supplants or distracts from the evaluation of whether the process is moral or ethical or allowable by arguing that since it is common and likely employed by both legit and counterfeit it is therefore ok and there is no reason to feel bad or be judged poorly for that choice.

There may be arguments that may realistically support counterfeiting but arguing for counterfeiting by stating that child labor is used for all products, legit or counterfeit, is not one of them unless the person supplying such argument does not believe child labor as morally, ethically, or socially wrong.

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Todd Simpson
post Jul 17 2017, 03:06 AM
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No problem smile.gif I haven't seen you play on anything in quite some time so I thought you'd given up on it so I thought I'd try to reach out and invite you back. But really, no problem at all.


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jul 16 2017, 02:27 AM) *
A quick google search will quickly reveal the fallacy of your argument about clothing. There are at least hundreds of businesses that make clothes in this country that source all the materials used to make those clothes from right here in this country as well, in fact it is a growing trend and there is absolutely no child labor involved in those companies that manufacture their clothing in this way. And for me, I will do my best, as I have been, to avoid goods, counterfeit or not, that are made in China.
In fact since you are so flippant on the matter and support a black market counterfeit trade with China, I will stop supporting you as well. So please, don't bother sending me any more private messages to take part in your challenges or any other project you may start here at GMC. Thanks. smile.gif


I did want to try a scalloped guitar, without paying the crazy prices for a real yngwie strat. The buyer was honest in saying it was coming from his shop in china, which I checked out on the web. Didn't see any children there, but who knows. It's china. Sold the guitar stating clearly that it was a copy. Bought with my eyes open and sold it the same way. I can't control what happens further down the line, none of us can. Just wanted to try a scalloped neck for cheap. That's the only way I found to do it. Made sure to look in to the shop as much as possible, that's all any of us can do. Buy honestly and sell honestly, even when it's a copy. Some folks are really not ok with buying copy gear, I support their decision. I may buy one now and then, this is my first. It may be my last. Just depends if I want to try something crazy pricey before buying a real one and finding a shop that at least looks like they hire adults. Could have just said I thought it was real and fibbed on the price I paid, but I'm not in to that so like other folks that have tried chinese guitars, I tried one too and just shared my experience about it smile.gif

If you are not ok buying copied goods. I would say, don't buy copied goods. Simple as that. I seem to be a bit more ok with than several posters, but to each his own. I do support being straight up as to whether gear is a copy or not, whether buying or selling.

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 17 2017, 03:21 AM


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Rammikin
post Jul 17 2017, 01:31 PM
Post #20


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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 17 2017, 02:06 AM) *
Sold the guitar stating clearly that it was a copy.


Is this the first in a series of threads where Todd admits to committing a federal crime? smile.gif. Are embezzlement and money laundering coming up next? Seriously though, and correct me if I'm wrong, but forum rules prohibit discussion of criminal activity.


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