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> Are Jazz Guitarists Way Better Than Rock Guitarists?
Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 1 2017, 09:42 PM
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I've found this question at a forum from my country and I thought that it would be interesting to see what GMCers think about this...

Are jazz guitarists way better than rock guitarists?


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klasaine
post Oct 2 2017, 02:17 AM
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Of course wink.gif

I'm kidding. Two different skill sets.
The guys and gals who are truly great are the ones who can do both 'convincingly'.


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MonkeyDAthos
post Oct 2 2017, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 2 2017, 02:17 AM) *
Of course wink.gif

I'm kidding. Two different skill sets.
The guys and gals who are truly great are the ones who can do both 'convincingly'.



I can subscribe to this.


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Sensible Jones
post Oct 2 2017, 01:44 PM
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Who's better, Left Handers or Right Handers? biggrin.gif
It's all subjective, as Ken says, different Skill Sets.
I would put this in there though, I would suggest that the Jazzers would be better Theorists.
(Especially with their Arcane Knowledge of Tritone Substitution!) tongue.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 2 2017, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 1 2017, 10:17 PM) *
Of course wink.gif

I'm kidding. Two different skill sets.
The guys and gals who are truly great are the ones who can do both 'convincingly'.



laugh.gif

I agree. By the way, I like when rock guitarist get influenced by advanced blues and jazz player regarding improvisation and following the chords concepts. I remember Andy Timmons, and Mike Stern saying that learning jazz was a total open minder for improvisation.



QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Oct 2 2017, 09:44 AM) *
Who's better, Left Handers or Right Handers? biggrin.gif
It's all subjective, as Ken says, different Skill Sets.
I would put this in there though, I would suggest that the Jazzers would be better Theorists.
(Especially with their Arcane Knowledge of Tritone Substitution!) tongue.gif


hahaha I thought that Left handers were better! laugh.gif



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Sensible Jones
post Oct 2 2017, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 2 2017, 01:53 PM) *
hahaha I thought that Left handers were better! laugh.gif

Is Lil Wayne a Lefty????
ohmy.gif ohmy.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 2 2017, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Oct 2 2017, 04:11 PM) *
Is Lil Wayne a Lefty????
ohmy.gif ohmy.gif



I hope that not!


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Sensible Jones
post Oct 3 2017, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 2 2017, 11:19 PM) *
I hope that not!

laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Phil66
post Oct 3 2017, 05:01 PM
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Actually Lil Wayne can shred with both hands like Michael Angelo Batio. He's currently working with Ibanez on a four neck guitar so he add shredding with his feet at the same time wink.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 3 2017, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 3 2017, 01:01 PM) *
Actually Lil Wayne can shred with both hands like Michael Angelo Batio. He's currently working with Ibanez on a four neck guitar so he add shredding with his feet at the same time wink.gif



I can't wait to see that! hahah


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 3 2017, 10:20 PM
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I sometimes get the impression jazz guitarists are so consumed by the harmonic side of things they completely forget to work on their tone/sound. Other than that, I have great respect for jazz guitarists - I would love to be in harmonic control like that.

Rock guitarists are slightly retarded - but we love 'em anyway laugh.gif


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Mertay
post Oct 3 2017, 11:12 PM
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A relative of mine loves flamenco, he has tons of dvd's in his house of concerts or documentary.

I remember watching an old one (impossible for me to remember the name) that had really early footage, even Paco may not be born yet. Almost every local virtuoso they filmed did a split second on a melody that had such a structure, even at the time an educated classical or jazz musician would probably be puzzled. And none of these guys were educated in a college or something like that.

Its that "something" which I think rock guitar players have and jazz don't. And it doesn't have to be theoretically complicated, a nature of melody/riff that simply grabs you from the heart. I don't consider myself a fan but I think EVH's success comes from it, he didn't mangle guitars or amps just for fun but the feeling he wanted to be felt simply needed that "brown" sound to be expressed. With very few exception, jazz players are very dull about that smile.gif

So success is both hard work for either style's, only the focus is different. Then what actually "better" is becomes even more subjective.

PS; I actually graduated from a jazz school, exposed and studied jazz (composition). Yet I almost never play or listen jazz, I was only there to understand music as thats why learning the engineering behind it too was also just as important.

So since I "know" jazz and play rock, does that make me the best guitarist in the world? hell no! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Mertay: Oct 3 2017, 11:15 PM


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klasaine
post Oct 4 2017, 02:11 AM
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At this point I'd like to interject that only 'bad' jazz guitarists don't work on tone and only 'bad' jazz guitarists are too theoretically minded when they play. The good ones, and I'll be more than happy to list them if requested, have a great (and varied) sound and can be incredibly creative, musically elusive and 'off the cuff' when it's called for. And going to college has absolutely nothing to do with it - good or bad.

All of the above applies to rock guitarists as well and keep in mind the aesthetics of the two are very different. What a jazz fan may see/hear as 'adventurous' or unexpected may completely pass by the rock fan, and vice versa. It's two different sides of the same coin.

You're either good at music or you're not. Tone, taste, musicality, technique, presentation ... it's all part of it.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 4 2017, 02:19 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 4 2017, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Oct 3 2017, 07:12 PM) *
So since I "know" jazz and play rock, does that make me the best guitarist in the world? hell no! biggrin.gif



Guthrie? Are you there??? biggrin.gif

QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 3 2017, 10:11 PM) *
All of the above applies to rock guitarists as well and keep in mind the aesthetics of the two are very different. What a jazz fan may see/hear as 'adventurous' or unexpected may completely pass by the rock fan, and vice versa. It's two different sides of the same coin.



That's so right! It took me some time to value the "adventrutous" side of jazz guitarists. It didn't happen in my early teen days when I was into rock and metal. Then, players like (in this gradual order) Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, John Scofield made me start to understand why good jazz guitarists were that good.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 6 2017, 08:08 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 4 2017, 03:11 AM) *
At this point I'd like to interject that only 'bad' jazz guitarists don't work on tone and only 'bad' jazz guitarists are too theoretically minded when they play. The good ones, and I'll be more than happy to list them if requested, have a great (and varied) sound and can be incredibly creative, musically elusive and 'off the cuff' when it's called for. And going to college has absolutely nothing to do with it - good or bad.

All of the above applies to rock guitarists as well and keep in mind the aesthetics of the two are very different. What a jazz fan may see/hear as 'adventurous' or unexpected may completely pass by the rock fan, and vice versa. It's two different sides of the same coin.

You're either good at music or you're not. Tone, taste, musicality, technique, presentation ... it's all part of it.


I guess a bit of musical conservatism is embedded in the term jazz. Jazz guitarists that are more innovative with their sound often fall into the fusion category.

And listing guitarists is more than appreciated here cool.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 6 2017, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 6 2017, 04:08 AM) *
And listing guitarists is more than appreciated here cool.gif


+1 to this!!


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klasaine
post Oct 6 2017, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 6 2017, 12:08 AM) *
I guess a bit of musical conservatism is embedded in the term jazz. Jazz guitarists that are more innovative with their sound often fall into the fusion category.

And listing guitarists is more than appreciated here cool.gif


I guess it depends on what type of 'sound' you're referring to.
The guys that employ OD are usually in the fusion camp but straight up Jazz guys can be tone focused as well.
Here's a list with album recs ...

Grant Green - Green Street
Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue
Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery
Pat Martino - El Hombre (or Consciousness)
Barney Kessel - Autumn Leaves
Jim Hall - Jazz Guitar
Johnny smith - The sound of Johhny Smith
George Benson - Breezin' (sort of fusion but super clean tone)
John McLaughlin - After the Rain
Pat Metheny - Water Colors

Here's a good start but honestly, it's kind of endless.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 6 2017, 04:24 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 6 2017, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 6 2017, 11:15 AM) *
I guess it depends on what type of 'sound' you're referring to.
The guys that employ OD are usually in the fusion camp but straight up Jazz guys can be tone focused as well.
Here's a list with album recs ...

Grant Green - Green Street
Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue
Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery
Pat Martino - El Hombre (or Consciousness)
Barney Kessel - Autumn Leaves
Jim Hall - Jazz Guitar
Johnny smith - The sound of Johhny Smith
George Benson - Breezin' (sort of fusion but super clean tone)

Here's a good start but onestly, it's kind of endless.



Great list! Top level. I've heard most of these ones.


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klasaine
post Oct 6 2017, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 6 2017, 07:40 AM) *
Great list! Top level. I've heard most of these ones.


I added these two ...

John McLaughlin - After the Rain
Pat Metheny - Water Colors

*Important to understand too is that it's 'Jazz guitar' which means that tone is absolutely in the hands and there's not too much variation. The gear is minimal: Archtop, usually a Gibson and either a Fender or Gibson tube amp of medium wattage.
It's a genre. If you don't dig the sound of relatively mid focused, clean, stringy guitar - then you're not gonna hear the subtle differences between players.


This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 6 2017, 04:33 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 9 2017, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 6 2017, 05:25 PM) *
I added these two ...

John McLaughlin - After the Rain
Pat Metheny - Water Colors

*Important to understand too is that it's 'Jazz guitar' which means that tone is absolutely in the hands and there's not too much variation. The gear is minimal: Archtop, usually a Gibson and either a Fender or Gibson tube amp of medium wattage.
It's a genre. If you don't dig the sound of relatively mid focused, clean, stringy guitar - then you're not gonna hear the subtle differences between players.


Good point!

Btw are there any jazz guys out there who stick to very traditional bebop lines but with a more modern tone?


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