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Phil66
post Nov 6 2017, 02:03 PM
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I don't agree but I can see what he's trying to say. I think he means people are trying to hide behind effects. That's why a lot of the time I'll practise clean.
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jstcrsn
post Nov 6 2017, 02:12 PM
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Mostly , too many people can't do something so they grab an effect , and if it's easier to use an effect over the time actually learning. That being said , there are times ( of course for effects ).
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Nov 6 2017, 02:35 PM
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I always recommend to practice technique without too much effect and distortion. Then, when making music, be creative and do whatever your mind or heart dictates. smile.gif



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bleez
post Nov 6 2017, 06:35 PM
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I take it, he's talking about 'ambient' music / guitarists? Isn't that kinda the whole point of ambient music.... using effects to create a mood.
Dunno that you could really play that style on an acoustic, Joe huh.gif

unless he's just having a go at The edge, in which case... fair enough.


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fkalich
post Nov 6 2017, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Nov 6 2017, 08:35 AM) *
I always recommend to practice technique without too much effect and distortion. Then, when making music, be creative and do whatever your mind or heart dictates. smile.gif


As a guitarist, and I have been around awhile, you have been my greatest influence of all that Kris has taken onto the site. And a lot of great guitarists here have come and gone, mostly gone.

There is a physicality to guitar, really and athleticism, of the hands and fingers mostly, but still it is an athleticism. And to be an accomplished guitarist requires much the same approach in a way as any athlete has to take.

If you turn off the devices as you say, that exposes your limitations in that sense. If you just mask them all the time with devices, well you probably will never develop the physical skills. And I believe that after song writing, that is the most important element in musicianship.
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klasaine
post Nov 6 2017, 06:56 PM
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While I get where he's coming from I have to say that a lot of those 'ambient' or non-traditional guitarists have influenced and moved forward the art form a hell of a lot more than he has. I dig Joe B. but he plays music that at this point is a museum piece. He's a curator, not a creator. But to reiterate, he is a really good curator.

*The Edge and Eddie Van Halen did more to change guitar playing and rock music more than any other guitarists since Hendrix.
Third and fourth place go to Andy Summers and Johnny Marr respectively.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 6 2017, 07:00 PM


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fkalich
post Nov 6 2017, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 6 2017, 12:56 PM) *
While I get where he's coming from I have to say that a lot of those 'ambient' or non-traditional guitarists have influenced and moved forward the art form a hell of a lot more than he has. I dig Joe B. but he plays music that at this point is a museum piece. He's a curator, not a creator. But to reiterate, he is a really good curator.

*The Edge and Eddie Van Halen did more to change guitar playing and rock music more than any other guitarists since Hendrix.
Third and fourth place go to Andy Summers and Johnny Marr respectively.


Edge is an example, he has limitations and he has always known it. I don't think he was referring to someone like EVH. He was not criticizing effects in that sense, he was saying that people get dependent on them early on, and so never develop real physical skills, finger dexterity, that kind of thing.

I am sure EVH can play with skill straight into a Vox amp, effects just embellish what he already has.

edit: As an example from personal experience. I can play something, and it might sound fine, and it might sound great to someone else. Maybe I am using distortion, some phase, some echo. Significant flaws are not apparent. But turn that stuff of, and oh yes, the flaws are there.

And If i turn off the stuff, and work on it, and get rid of the flaws, it is all the much better if I turn the stuff back on. But unless you go through that process, you never get there. That is what he is saying as I read it.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 6 2017, 07:16 PM
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bleez
post Nov 6 2017, 07:25 PM
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Actually, Ive read his quote a bunch of times and it doesnt make any sense to me at all. is he talking about someone covering up a sloppy solo with a Wah type of thing or is he bitching at ambient players?
the 'soundscapist' term made me think he was on about the ambient side of things but if so why is that 'insulting' to a guitarist? Its not like they're calling themselves 'seasoned bluesmen' huh.gif
and what 'Masking and spin' is he talking about? if its' ambient music, then that's its bag.

"I know I’ll get sh*t for saying this, but it’s f**king lazy," he added. "It’s insulting to people who spent 35 years playing and learning—like a lot of players—and we continue to work at it! These guys can barely play a chord but call themselves 'soundscapists.' Get the f**k outta here! It’s bullsh*t. There’s so much masking and spin going on there. Can we get real for a minute? What do you actually play? Pick up an acoustic guitar. Try that!”

Did somebody just run all over Joe's lawm smile.gif


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klasaine
post Nov 6 2017, 08:02 PM
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My reference to EVH was not related to the Joe B. thing. Only as an aside about influential non-trad guitarists post Hendrix. I probably should have clarified that. EVH can absolutely play his way un-effected and on an simple acoustic as well.

*I almost always practice clean. I play at home on a steel string 90% of the time.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 6 2017, 08:06 PM


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Mertay
post Nov 6 2017, 10:08 PM
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Yeah I think he's talking about ambient stuff. If he's fed up with ambient delay and reverbs on guitar, don't tell him there are such things as synth.s biggrin.gif

Though must say I have met guys who doesn't know basic chords, claiming to do ambient music with guitar or vst's. One can quickly understand from their music as you'll never here anything as complex as a 7'th chord somewhere in the harmony smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 7 2017, 06:21 AM
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He's got a valid point. It's easy to hide things behind wads of reverb/delay/chorus etc. Name your pedal, someone has hidden behind it, even distortion. FX should enhance what's being played, not try to disguise it imho. I do like stacking delays and I probably went to far recently smile.gif I always try to make sure the guitar is much louder than the delays so that they only come in during a sustain or pinch or what not. If they get to low, they become overbearing and can get louder than picked notes.

You've probably already seen this, but it's a good example of probably pushing it a bit far on fx smile.gif




QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 6 2017, 09:03 AM) *
I don't agree but I can see what he's trying to say. I think he means people are trying to hide behind effects. That's why a lot of the time I'll practise clean.
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fkalich
post Nov 7 2017, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 7 2017, 12:21 AM) *
You've probably already seen this, but it's a good example of probably pushing it a bit far on fx smile.gif


That's actually quite nice. And I can see that you can play well in back of all that. But some other guitarist who lacks your skills could learn that, and while he might not sound quite as good as you, he might still be somewhat close, at least to the casual listener who did not know any better, i.e., most members of a modern audience.

But switch off the effects and he/she would sound like total crap.

The effects are equalizers to an extent. Both for good and bad. They not only mask the crap (lipstick on a pig), but they also can mask good things at times, where things in your playing that are extraordinary might not stand out so much if certain effects are kicked in.

edit: don't get me wrong, I have over 30 pedals myself.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 7 2017, 10:55 AM
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Kristofer Dahl
post Nov 7 2017, 10:55 AM
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Strong statements!

But Joe is cheating all the time - he uses a pick, and his guitars have frets. Those are really helpful inventions that makes things a lot easier!

By his logic he should just sing all his guitar lines and not use any tools at all. Preferably without P.A. - just really loud (in order not to cheat).

Btw I think using wheels is cheating as well - 'true' people should just walk or run.

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Sensible Jones
post Nov 7 2017, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 7 2017, 10:55 AM) *
Strong statements!

But Joe is cheating all the time - he uses a pick, and his guitars have frets. Those are really helpful inventions that makes things a lot easier!

By his logic he should just sing all his guitar lines and not use any tools at all. Preferably without P.A. - just really loud (in order not to cheat).

Btw I think using wheels is cheating as well - 'true' people should just walk or run.

laugh.gif laugh.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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jstcrsn
post Nov 7 2017, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Nov 6 2017, 07:25 PM) *
Actually, Ive read his quote a bunch of times and it doesnt make any sense to me at all. is he talking about someone covering up a sloppy solo with a Wah type of thing or is he bitching at ambient players?
the 'soundscapist' term made me think he was on about the ambient side of things but if so why is that 'insulting' to a guitarist? Its not like they're calling themselves 'seasoned bluesmen' huh.gif
and what 'Masking and spin' is he talking about? if its' ambient music, then that's its bag.

"I know I’ll get sh*t for saying this, but it’s f**king lazy," he added. "It’s insulting to people who spent 35 years playing and learning—like a lot of players—and we continue to work at it! These guys can barely play a chord but call themselves 'soundscapists.' Get the f**k outta here! It’s bullsh*t. There’s so much masking and spin going on there. Can we get real for a minute? What do you actually play? Pick up an acoustic guitar. Try that!”

Did somebody just run all over Joe's lawm smile.gif

I can't think of any body that would use a wah to cover things up huh.gif
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bleez
post Nov 7 2017, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Nov 7 2017, 02:06 PM) *
I can't think of any body that would use a wah to cover things up huh.gif

Neither can I. Im pretty sure its not a thing that happens smile.gif


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Mertay
post Nov 7 2017, 03:21 PM
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It gets all muddy and the guitar can't be heard with too much reverb/delay anyway. Masking to me is a bit different.

Wah was a good example, I'll also add some pickups to that. I'm guilty for using a tonezone for example, sounds that are hard to get with something like a SD can be very easy with dimarzios.


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 8 2017, 03:01 AM
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Good point. With enough delay, it really can be used to hide all sorts of misses and mistakes. So yeah I agree, it's often used to just cover up what's not being played.

Todd

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 7 2017, 05:39 AM) *
That's actually quite nice. And I can see that you can play well in back of all that. But some other guitarist who lacks your skills could learn that, and while he might not sound quite as good as you, he might still be somewhat close, at least to the casual listener who did not know any better, i.e., most members of a modern audience.

But switch off the effects and he/she would sound like total crap.

The effects are equalizers to an extent. Both for good and bad. They not only mask the crap (lipstick on a pig), but they also can mask good things at times, where things in your playing that are extraordinary might not stand out so much if certain effects are kicked in.

edit: don't get me wrong, I have over 30 pedals myself.



I can think of one guy smile.gif

QUOTE (bleez @ Nov 7 2017, 10:14 AM) *
Neither can I. Im pretty sure its not a thing that happens smile.gif



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fkalich
post Nov 8 2017, 06:33 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 7 2017, 09:01 PM) *
Good point. With enough delay, it really can be used to hide all sorts of misses and mistakes. So yeah I agree, it's often used to just cover up what's not being played.

Todd


When you sent that video/audio I thought to myself "don't be prejudice here, look at this objectively" I thought it would be of some guy that was total crap covered up by effects.

But as I watched it I thought "no, he plays very well, there's nothing wrong with that guy!" Then I realized it was you. Someday I have to invest more than $1.99 in eye glasses.
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Caelumamittendum
post Nov 8 2017, 06:46 AM
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I think there's a time and place for everything - in music and in practice. Personally to my ears I can play more sloppy without distortion, as the ringing doesn't seem to affect the feel too much - or actually sometimes give a nice feeling, where as with distortion you will immedietally recognize the noise.

Then as for music, well, there's no such way as a right way to do things. Whatever works to create the expression you're after. If you need 200 delay pedals for that, be my guest.


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