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Phil66
post Nov 1 2018, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Nov 1 2018, 03:51 PM) *
You'd need to emphasis one of the notes as the tonal centre or home. Maybe by lingering longer on it, or if you kept coming back to it more frequently, ending licks on it etc


Thanks, I'll work on that more now. smile.gif

I actually feel a bit dumb for asking now huh.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Nov 1 2018, 05:37 PM


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klasaine
post Nov 2 2018, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 1 2018, 09:36 AM) *
I actually feel a bit dumb for asking now huh.gif


Not a dumb question at all.
Changing the harmony (the chords or counterpoint) under a given melody is one of the age old ways composers and songwriters, for the last 1200 years, have been "making the same old thing" sound new again. There's only 12 notes (in western music), it's all about what you put with them.




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Phil66
post Nov 2 2018, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 2 2018, 11:24 PM) *
Not a dumb question at all.
Changing the harmony (the chords or counterpoint) under a given melody is one of the age old ways composers and songwriters, for the last 1200 years, have been "making the same old thing" sound new again. There's only 12 notes (in western music), it's all about what you put with them.

And that's why I feel dumb laugh.gif Something that's been going around for over a thousand years and I don't know it lol.
Cheers Ken, one day I'd like to make my way to L.A and spend some time with you buddy.

Cheers


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 3 2018, 02:17 AM
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My reply was so long winded I don't think it helped. Basicaly no, there is not difference if I understand your question correctly, as Ken said.

E to E (one octave) in a minor scale is the same no matter where you play it.
E to E in Major does sound different than E to E in Minor. That's what I wastalking about being able to hear. I actually misunderstood what you were saying.
Todd
QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 1 2018, 04:57 AM) *
Thanks Ken,

I thought I was really missing something,

Cheers


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Phil66
post Nov 3 2018, 03:50 PM
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Thanks Todd, no worries, I'm not always good at putting my questions comprehensively. It was just that when I've been improvising I couldn't hear sadness or happiness exclusively to minor or major respectively. Hope that makes sense.
On my way to having a beer with Ken I'll pop to Atlanta to see you wink.gif

Cheers

This post has been edited by Phil66: Nov 3 2018, 10:50 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 3 2018, 07:22 PM
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Sounds like a plan!! Your ear is spot on, the minor scales do sound a bit sad and the major a bit happy which is why so much metal uses minor progressions and scales, while Gospel and Pop music will often (certainly not always) use Major progressions and scales. smile.gif
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 3 2018, 10:50 AM) *
Thanks Todd, no worries, I'm not always good at putting my questions comprehensively. It was just that when I've been improvising I couldn't hear sadness or happiness exclusively to minor or major respectfully. Hope that makes sense.
On my way to having a beer with Ken I'll pop to Atlanta to see you wink.gif

Cheers


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Phil66
post Nov 3 2018, 10:48 PM
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Maybe you misunderstood me buddy, I said "when I've been improvising I couldn't hear sadness or happiness exclusively to minor or major respectively" which meant that when I'm improvising in major or minor they can both sound happy or sad. That's down to my lack of skills to manipulate the scale correctly.

Cheer



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Todd Simpson
post Nov 4 2018, 05:13 AM
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Yup. Misunderstood again. Thanks for the clarification. Did my huge explanation make any sense btw?

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 3 2018, 05:48 PM) *
Maybe you misunderstood me buddy, I said "when I've been improvising I couldn't hear sadness or happiness exclusively to minor or major respectively" which meant that when I'm improvising in major or minor they can both sound happy or sad. That's down to my lack of skills to manipulate the scale correctly.

Cheer


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Phil66
post Nov 4 2018, 10:52 AM
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I'd did help a little thank you, as I said, reading doesn't always sink into my head. I've realised something else that is probably not helping and I'll probably sound stupid saying it but I only ever play pentatonic and I only learnt one pattern 1, 4, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 4, 1, 4. Though I do extend it on the E & A and the B & E strings the notes are the same. I think it might be the exclusive use of that scale shape for major and minor that's making it harder for me to hear.

Cheers

Phil


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 5 2018, 03:06 AM
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If you can memorize that chart I put up from the scale generator it will cure your problem of only using the pentatonic shape. Take it in chunks of one shape at a time, e.g. The minor, then move up to the next shape. Then play both shapes by moving back and forth between them. Keep adding one shape at at time. They happen in four fret chunks as you can see from the diagram.

Of course you can do the same thing all the way up the neck with the blues scale if that would easier for a start. Just use the scale generator and hit ALL and it will show you the blues scale all the way up the neck. The only thing that changes is where you start the scale. E.G. if a backing is in G then you start the first shape of the blues scale, the one you already know, on the G (third fret). It's that simple. Assuming that makes sense smile.gif

Of course, this assumes you know the knows on the E string all the way up to 12th fret where they repeat. Do you know the notes on the E string from open to 12th fret? Please don't be offended by this question, if you know the notes I'm just trying to verify. If you don't know them, that would need to come first, as thats the bit that you can base the rest off of as the other strings all follow the same pattern. Just start from a different place: )
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 4 2018, 05:52 AM) *
I'd did help a little thank you, as I said, reading doesn't always sink into my head. I've realised something else that is probably not helping and I'll probably sound stupid saying it but I only ever play pentatonic and I only learnt one pattern 1, 4, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 4, 1, 4. Though I do extend it on the E & A and the B & E strings the notes are the same. I think it might be the exclusive use of that scale shape for major and minor that's making it harder for me to hear.

Cheers

Phil


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Nov 5 2018, 03:07 AM


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Phil66
post Nov 5 2018, 08:22 AM
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Thanks Todd,

Yeah, I know the notes on the E, I know how to shift a pattern to a different key in the way you suggest too. What I'd ultimately like to be able to do is change keys without running up and down the neck, I think that's where the CAGED system comes in but I may be wrong.

Cheers

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Nov 5 2018, 08:37 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Nov 6 2018, 03:55 AM
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As long as you know where the notes are on the E, (without needing to actually run A/A# etc. but really know them to where you can just land where you want on the key you want, you can change keys on the fly. Or is that not what you mean?
QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 5 2018, 03:22 AM) *
Thanks Todd,

Yeah, I know the notes on the E, I know how to shift a pattern to a different key in the way you suggest too. What I'd ultimately like to be able to do is change keys without running up and down the neck, I think that's where the CAGED system comes in but I may be wrong.

Cheers

Phil


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Phil66
post Nov 6 2018, 08:12 AM
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Well I watched a you tube video (can't find it now) about soloing over chord progressions and not having to run up and down the neck to match the root on the E. I think it was about the caged system and to kinda stay in a four fret window. That's probably way too advanced for me at the moment but it would be nice one day wink.gif

Cheers

Phil


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Caelumamittendum
post Nov 7 2018, 09:50 AM
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Youtube threw this at me randomly, and I thought it might be worth watching, Phil, in terms of playing, improvising etc:



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Todd Simpson
post Nov 8 2018, 03:31 AM
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The "CAGED" System is basically a way to understand some of the most often used chord shapes and being able to play them without open strings. At which point you can play those chords in any position on the neck. Here is a good article that breaks it all down in just a 3 pages.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/1939...d-system?page=1

In terms of improvisational soloing, the most important thing know is "What Key am I playing in". Once you know that, you are on your way.
Say the key is "A Minor". That just means that the chord progression at hand has root notes in it's chords that follow the 'Minor" pattern. E.G. Whole Step (2 frets), Half step (1 fret), Whole step, for example. So for example, a simple minor progression using simple bar chords in A minor would be simply, bar chord (as easy as root/fifth, first finger on the A note on the low E string at the 5th fret, third finger on the A string at the 7th fret) the basic power chord uses in all rock songs)
To improv over this, just start your Blues or Minor Scale at the 5th fret, and realize the Root notes, (resolution notes) are the low E 5th fret, D string 7th fret, high E 5th fret. Same for Minor and Blues scale.

If you memorize that scale pattern diagram for Minor and or Blues, you an then land anywhere you want, start and end anywhere you want and just make it up as you go along, just land on an A note now and then. It's really that simple. That's really all there is to getting started doing improv soloing smile.gif

Memorizing the Natural Minor connecting shapes, and the Blues Connecting Shapes will get you nearly unlimited mileage in terms of being able to create solos. SRV himself made great use of the Blues shapes as did BBking. They rarely created backings to solo over that were based on Phrygian progressions and scales. Most of blues/rock is just not about that. How are you coming on memorizing these two digrams btw? It's the keys to kingdom getting started on Blues/Rock solo work smile.gif

A BLUES
Attached Image
A MINORAttached Image

That's honestly enough theory to get you moving in to creating cool blues solos. One never gets "done" learning theory, it's endless. I have seen folks get distracted with it and lose sight of the fact that it's only purpose is to provide a language that we can reference composed of symbols and letters, that let's us use something other than actual music, to communicate musical ideas.

BB King rarely used anything outside of the primary Blues Scale Shape. SRV was a big fan of the shape as well. Far more important than the theory imho is using one's ear to create notes that go well with notes being played, eg. the backing. smile.gif

Does this all make sense? It's a wad of theory crunched in to a single post.

Todd


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 6 2018, 03:12 AM) *
Well I watched a you tube video (can't find it now) about soloing over chord progressions and not having to run up and down the neck to match the root on the E. I think it was about the caged system and to kinda stay in a four fret window. That's probably way too advanced for me at the moment but it would be nice one day wink.gif

Cheers

Phil


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Phil66
post Nov 8 2018, 01:13 PM
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Wow thanks Todd, I really appreciate you putting the time in to do that buddy.
I think the thing with theory is to learn little bits as you go along your journey and try to implement them bit by bit into your improvs, so 95% winging it and 5% theory application. Otherwise it can be too distracting.

Cheers buddy


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