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Irs Vs Virtual Amps
JohnMathew
Nov 7 2020, 02:50 AM
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Hi!,

I have been reading a lot this week about available virtual amps and have tested some. Well, as I have learnt virtual amps are very subjective and different people like differnt v. amps.

The thing is that I have come across IR's today. They seem to be around for a lot of years now but I never heard of them. so, it seems that throuh IR's one can capture the sound of a full rig in a really perfect way and this is great.

All this leads me to one question. Why use v. amps over just IR's? It seems IR's ussually sound better because there's no synthesis involved, just sampling. I understand that when you use an IR you get the full rig and no customization can be done in the middle (Like adding or removing a pedal). You can only process the output signal comming from the IR. But why do that if you get the full rig sound you were looking for?

As an example, I love dimebag tone, I have seen some awesome FREE IR's that replicate the sound of some of pantera records. Wouldn't this be enough to ditch all virtual amps around trying to emulate dimebag sound?

What do you think?

Cheers!

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Mertay
Nov 7 2020, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 7 2020, 01:50 AM) *
Hi!,

I have been reading a lot this week about available virtual amps and have tested some. Well, as I have learnt virtual amps are very subjective and different people like differnt v. amps.

The thing is that I have come across IR's today. They seem to be around for a lot of years now but I never heard of them. so, it seems that throuh IR's one can capture the sound of a full rig in a really perfect way and this is great.

All this leads me to one question. Why use v. amps over just IR's? It seems IR's ussually sound better because there's no synthesis involved, just sampling. I understand that when you use an IR you get the full rig and no customization can be done in the middle (Like adding or removing a pedal). You can only process the output signal comming from the IR. But why do that if you get the full rig sound you were looking for?

As an example, I love dimebag tone, I have seen some awesome FREE IR's that replicate the sound of some of pantera records. Wouldn't this be enough to ditch all virtual amps around trying to emulate dimebag sound?

What do you think?

Cheers!



I gave a very short explanation about what ir is on my reverb topic on last message; https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...c=61409&hl=

So with it we can only capture reverb and freq. response, sort of you can say a super clean (but dull) amp sound is the max capability(no distortion). With guitar plug-ins, we only capture the cabinet (without an amp and shave the reverb out of it).

IR's are (if not protected) .wav files, so this is how we can use any amp with any cab. we want in guitar plug-ins.

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Phil66
Nov 7 2020, 12:44 PM
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IRs aren't the full rig, they are l like a snapshot of a cab, mic (or multiple mics) and room. When I had my Helix I used to create a patch with preamp and power amp and any pedals I wanted and put the IR where the cab would go with time based pedals afterwards.

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JohnMathew
Nov 7 2020, 09:50 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 7 2020, 12:44 PM) *
IRs aren't the full rig, they are l like a snapshot of a cab, mic (or multiple mics) and room. When I had my Helix I used to create a patch with preamp and power amp and any pedals I wanted and put the IR where the cab would go with time based pedals afterwards.

Yes Phil66. I was reading a bit more about IR's and you are totally right. Sorry for the confusion.

So from what I understand a common rig consists of:

Guitar -> Effects -> [ PreAmp -> Amp -> Cabinet ] -> Mic . The parts in brackets can be found in the form of a combo amp.

In the end IR's can't substitute softwars like th-u overloud or Bias FX 2. They just can complement these type of software by adding more Cabinet emulations. For example if I get Bias FX 2(just naming one) that do not have a custom IR's loader, I guess I would bypass its cabinets emulation and send the signal to an external IR Loader like Nadir 2 in my DAW and voila. I would be using Bias FX 2 as my rack of effects and the IR Loader for my cab. Check (1) at the end for a little question about this.

My initial assumptions were wrong, and the name that community gave to this type of software (Virtual amps) really confused me. I think a better name would be "Virtual rigs". Because they provide a lot more that just virtual amps.

What do you think Phil66, am I right this time? smile.gif

(1). This leads me to think if I should spent the money on a Virtual Amp software or just get a bunch of IR's and a good IR Loader and use the effect rack in my DAW (Studio one). It would be almost the same and almost free. Am I right?

Cheers!

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Todd Simpson
Nov 7 2020, 10:00 PM
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If you get an IR loader, and use your fx from your daw, you would need your daw to have a built in amp simulator. Some daws have one, some daws dont. Every built in amp simulator i've ever tried fell tragically short of having great tone. Still, if FREE is the limitation at hand, you can certainly build good tone for free I'd say go get the FREE version of Amplitube. It's far better than any built in daw amp sim that i've tried.


BTW, Any good guitar plugin will led you load custom IRs. OVERLOUD THU for example comes with it's IR and it will let you load your custom IR and save the entire signal chain as a single preset. That's what I love about THU. It's an end to end solution. Some folks use a collection of free plugins that each do part of the signal chain. E.g. one plugin for amp/one for IR, one or more for FX etc. I've always found this to be more of a pain than it's worth but that's just me.



QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 7 2020, 04:50 PM) *
Yes Phil66. I was reading a bit more about IR's and you are totally right. Sorry for the confusion.

So from what I understand a common rig consists of:

Guitar -> Effects -> [ PreAmp -> Amp -> Cabinet ] -> Mic . The parts in brackets can be found in the form of a combo amp.

In the end IR's can't substitute softwars like th-u overloud or Bias FX 2. They just can complement these type of software by adding more Cabinet emulations. For example if I get Bias FX 2(just naming one) that do not have a custom IR's loader, I guess I would bypass its cabinets emulation and send the signal to an external IR Loader like Nadir 2 in my DAW and voila. I would be using Bias FX 2 as my rack of effects and the IR Loader for my cab. Check (1) at the end for a little question about this.

My initial assumptions were wrong, and the name that community gave to this type of software (Virtual amps) really confused me. I think a better name would be "Virtual rigs". Because they provide a lot more that just virtual amps.

What do you think Phil66, am I right this time? smile.gif

(1). This leads me to think if I should spent the money on a Virtual Amp software or just get a bunch of IR's and a good IR Loader and use the effect rack in my DAW (Studio one). It would be almost the same and almost free. Am I right?

Cheers!

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Phil66
Nov 7 2020, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 7 2020, 08:50 PM) *
Yes Phil66. I was reading a bit more about IR's and you are totally right. Sorry for the confusion.

So from what I understand a common rig consists of:

Guitar -> Effects -> [ PreAmp -> Amp -> Cabinet ] -> Mic . The parts in brackets can be found in the form of a combo amp.

In the end IR's can't substitute softwars like th-u overloud or Bias FX 2. They just can complement these type of software by adding more Cabinet emulations. For example if I get Bias FX 2(just naming one) that do not have a custom IR's loader, I guess I would bypass its cabinets emulation and send the signal to an external IR Loader like Nadir 2 in my DAW and voila. I would be using Bias FX 2 as my rack of effects and the IR Loader for my cab. Check (1) at the end for a little question about this.

My initial assumptions were wrong, and the name that community gave to this type of software (Virtual amps) really confused me. I think a better name would be "Virtual rigs". Because they provide a lot more that just virtual amps.

What do you think Phil66, am I right this time? smile.gif

(1). This leads me to think if I should spent the money on a Virtual Amp software or just get a bunch of IR's and a good IR Loader and use the effect rack in my DAW (Studio one). It would be almost the same and almost free. Am I right?

Cheers!


Well I'm no expert but it depends on your budget. If you can afford it I'd just go for TH-U, it's so easy but you do need a powerful computer to get latency levels down. I got my licence from ebay for under £200.

If you sent afford it go for the myriad of plugins available and use IRs, I've just never got on using multiple plugins, maybe I'm doing it all wrong but now I've found TH-U I don't think I'll be changing, I had to buy a high spec computer to buy that will run anything for a long time.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Cheers

Phil

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Mertay
Nov 8 2020, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 7 2020, 08:50 PM) *
...


People buy separate ir lib.s as an enhancement rather than a solution. These aren't of higher quality but give a slightly different flavor (for example a smoother overall tone, maybe more roomy etc.).

When Helix came out at time because it offered ir cab. loading the market for these lib.s boomed. But after a while some people started realizing (after buying a bunch of them) the default cab.s weren't bad at all.

IR by the way, the tech. goes back to 1970 and it didn't really evolve much in its core. It's just that we found better or more use of it so be careful about the marketing hype smile.gif but simulating an amp is a much more evolving tech. and there are varieties which compete today, it would be better if you focus on that side of the chain.

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JohnMathew
Nov 8 2020, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 8 2020, 12:04 AM) *
People buy separate ir lib.s as an enhancement rather than a solution. These aren't of higher quality but give a slightly different flavor (for example a smoother overall tone, maybe more roomy etc.).

When Helix came out at time because it offered ir cab. loading the market for these lib.s boomed. But after a while some people started realizing (after buying a bunch of them) the default cab.s weren't bad at all.

IR by the way, the tech. goes back to 1970 and it didn't really evolve much in its core. It's just that we found better or more use of it so be careful about the marketing hype smile.gif but simulating an amp is a much more evolving tech. and there are varieties which compete today, it would be better if you focus on that side of the chain.

Thanks Mertay!

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klasaine
Nov 8 2020, 02:35 AM
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I love IRs but I really only use them with my real live tube amp heads.
I will occasionally scroll through the collection that come with a lot of the amp plugins. Brainworx amp sims come with at least 100 different cabs but usually, the default cab sounds the best. *Usually, but not always.
IRs are just another tool in your tone arsenal.

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tflava
Nov 8 2020, 10:35 AM
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Yes there are plenty of IR shops.
I also have Bias fx 2 and it has an IR loader in it. So you swap the cabinet with the IR you like.
You van have IR from celestion as an examples and they already mixed the mic positions and sometimes use multiple mics for one IR.
You also have Mixir3 for an examples. There you can use their own IR but can use different mics and control the distance from the mic to the cab and also the Edge.
You can put it in the center of the cone or at the Edge.

For an example of you use a mic and you pull it backwards from the cab you get less low end and more treble. This is how you can maintain the sound you want.

Greetz

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JohnMathew
Nov 8 2020, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (tflava @ Nov 8 2020, 10:35 AM) *
Yes there are plenty of IR shops.
I also have Bias fx 2 and it has an IR loader in it. So you swap the cabinet with the IR you like.
You van have IR from celestion as an examples and they already mixed the mic positions and sometimes use multiple mics for one IR.
You also have Mixir3 for an examples. There you can use their own IR but can use different mics and control the distance from the mic to the cab and also the Edge.
You can put it in the center of the cone or at the Edge.

For an example of you use a mic and you pull it backwards from the cab you get less low end and more treble. This is how you can maintain the sound you want.

Greetz

THanks for the information.

By the way Bias FX 2 has an IR loader to load user IR's? I thought it was only present in Bias Amp 2 not FX. Everything I read on the net says so. Have you missespelled the name?. Please confirm it.

Cheers!

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tflava
Nov 8 2020, 03:12 PM
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Hey john.

I have bias fx 2 elite and it has an IR loader in it.
I can send you a screen pic when i use it again.
I use the pedals and the amp from bias fx 2 elite but with my celestion IR. All with in bias fx 2.

Greetz tim

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JohnMathew
Nov 8 2020, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (tflava @ Nov 8 2020, 03:12 PM) *
Hey john.

I have bias fx 2 elite and it has an IR loader in it.
I can send you a screen pic when i use it again.
I use the pedals and the amp from bias fx 2 elite but with my celestion IR. All with in bias fx 2.

Greetz tim

No need for the screen shot smile.gif. It seems I was wrong.

I think they sell a pack with celestion IRs. What make these speakers so famaous that everyone talks about them?

Cheers

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Mertay
Nov 8 2020, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 8 2020, 02:52 PM) *
No need for the screen shot smile.gif. It seems I was wrong.

I think they sell a pack with celestion IRs. What make these speakers so famaous that everyone talks about them?

Cheers


My friend also had the elite pack, to be honest they make a big difference. Bıas ir's aren't too bad, but they really took the time matching those ir's for a better sound so if possible try to get the elite pack.

Celestion might be the biggest and most famous brand, few years ago they started to sell their own ir's and these are also well respoected.

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klasaine
Nov 8 2020, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 8 2020, 09:42 AM) *
Celestion might be the biggest and most famous brand, few years ago they started to sell their own ir's and these are also well respoected.


+1
The Celestion IRs really are nice. I've recently found that I'm using the Suhr 'Bella' 1x12" cab IR from a Two-Notes pack I bought several months ago. *I use a Captor X. It's a load box and IR loader combo.

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tflava
Nov 8 2020, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 8 2020, 02:52 PM) *
No need for the screen shot smile.gif. It seems I was wrong.

I think they sell a pack with celestion IRs. What make these speakers so famaous that everyone talks about them?

Cheers



Yes but you can also incorporate your own IR in there.
I think because they are such a famous brand and they are al lot in the vintage speakers 😁

But its also a question of taste just like your guitar tone.

Cheers

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JohnMathew
Nov 8 2020, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 8 2020, 05:42 PM) *
My friend also had the elite pack, to be honest they make a big difference. Bıas ir's aren't too bad, but they really took the time matching those ir's for a better sound so if possible try to get the elite pack.

Celestion might be the biggest and most famous brand, few years ago they started to sell their own ir's and these are also well respoected.

I have been checking the licenses they have and Celestion pack is only included in Bias Amp 2 not the FX version. What a pitty sad.gif.
And the standalone pack itself for celestions is almost as much as Bias FX 2. It's 89€.

Cheers!

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Mertay
Nov 8 2020, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 8 2020, 06:13 PM) *
I have been checking the licenses they have and Celestion pack is only included in Bias Amp 2 not the FX version. What a pitty sad.gif.
And the standalone pack itself for celestions is almost as much as Bias FX 2. It's 89€.

Cheers!


On the features webpage it mentions Celestions but yeah I can't see it on spec.s, ask them for clarification.

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JohnMathew
Nov 8 2020, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 8 2020, 07:21 PM) *
On the features webpage it mentions Celestions but yeah I can't see it on spec.s, ask them for clarification.

This leads me to another question. I know that we can get IR's for a lot of things. For example here celestion is selling ir's of their speakers. But, Is this really usable? I mean, In Bias FX you have cabs that mount the speakers (The same that in real life). So, you can use external ir's of other cabs to have a differnt sound. But, can you use the ir of an speaker instead of a full cab? It wouldn't sound good, am I right?

I think @Mertay this is why Bias FX doesn't have the celestion pack because you use full cabs. But, they provide them (the celestions) in FX Amp pero you can replace the speakers themselves inside the cab.

Cheers!

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Mertay
Nov 8 2020, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (JohnMathew @ Nov 8 2020, 09:25 PM) *
...




Found this video I hope it helps, but I can't help with the details as I don't own fx.

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