Playing In Time, Need some adivce
Victor Simion
Nov 15 2020, 06:34 PM
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Hi,

I recorded myself in Reaper and check my playing with the metronome in Reaper and I see that I almost always have a tendency to play in front of the beat, to rush.

How can I fix this?

Take a look at the screenshot and also listen to the audio of this screenshot

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Kristofer Dahl
Nov 15 2020, 06:41 PM
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You are not alone! This is one of the most common things I spot both at GMC and elsewhere.

I find that the more relaxed you are, the less you tend to play ahead of the beat.

Also, you can try exaggerating - so in other words play way behind the beat just to teach your ears and body what that feels like. And then try to find a golden spot/compromise.

As a general rule playing slightly behind the beat often sounds best. Playing ahead of the beat usually does not sound good, unless it's just for a few notes during a climax (as an example).

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Victor Simion
Nov 15 2020, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 15 2020, 05:41 PM) *
You are not alone! This is one of the most common things I spot both at GMC and elsewhere.

I find that the more relaxed you are, the less you tend to play ahead of the beat.

Also, you can try exaggerating - so in other words play way behind the beat just to teach your ears and body what that feels like. And the try to find a golden spot/compromise.

As a general rule playing slightly behind the beat often sounds best. Playing ahead of the beat usually does not sound good, unless it's just for a few notes during a climax (as an example).


I think it's easier for me when I play with a backing track than if I use the metronome.

Check this example that is a part of Tightness Etude by Lian Gerbino

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This post has been edited by Victor Simion: Nov 15 2020, 06:48 PM

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Kristofer Dahl
Nov 15 2020, 06:53 PM
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Yes. The reason could either be that you have problems hearing the click when you play - Lian's backing is more over the place and probably easier to hear at a lower volume.

It could also be that over a musical backing your ears take control and tell you body to not play ahead of the beat (because it does not sound as good). This is one of the main reasons I am not a fan of practicing for a long time over a metronome - because you totally loose the musical connection and thereby miss all the subtle stuff which is what makes up for great guitar playing in the end (micro timing being one of them for sure)

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Phil66
Nov 15 2020, 07:27 PM
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Hello Victor,

Playing ahead of the beat is extremely common, very often its because one isn't familiar enough with the piece so you kinda play in anticipation of the beat, if that makes sense. It's like when you first manage to get through a lesson without a mistake, we often find that we get tense and excited at the last couple of bars which makes us rush to the end, if you're not familiar enough with the piece, it's like that all the way through.

I know Kris isn't a great advocate of practising with a metronome and it can be monotonous but this video is well worth a watch. Hopefully Kris won't take it down as it's from another lesson site. Maybe five minutes a day like this will help discipline your internal click.

https://youtu.be/nurMXLoR4oI


Phil

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jstcrsn
Nov 15 2020, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Victor Simion @ Nov 15 2020, 06:34 PM) *
Hi,

I recorded myself in Reaper and check my playing with the metronome in Reaper and I see that I almost always have a tendency to play in front of the beat, to rush.

How can I fix this?

Take a look at the screenshot and also listen to the audio of this screenshot

your riff is extremely close to Judas priest breakin the law ..love them or hate them does not matter .. learn the riff , go to you tube and slow it down , practice with hearing you playing the notes exactly with the band and pay attention to the beat as well

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Gabriel Leopardi
Nov 15 2020, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 15 2020, 03:27 PM) *
Hello Victor,

Playing ahead of the beat is extremely common, very often its because one isn't familiar enough with the piece so you kinda play in anticipation of the beat, if that makes sense. It's like when you first manage to get through a lesson without a mistake, we often find that we get tense and excited at the last couple of bars which makes us rush to the end, if you're not familiar enough with the piece, it's like that all the way through.

I know Kris isn't a great advocate of practising with a metronome and it can be monotonous but this video is well worth a watch. Hopefully Kris won't take it down as it's from another lesson site. Maybe five minutes a day like this will help discipline your internal click.

https://youtu.be/nurMXLoR4oI


Phil



+1 here! This timing exercise is very tricky but very effective. I usually recommend students to dedicate at least 5 minutes each day to this one. It's also a good meditation. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Victor Simion @ Nov 15 2020, 02:47 PM) *
I think it's easier for me when I play with a backing track than if I use the metronome.

Check this example that is a part of Tightness Etude by Lian Gerbino



I think that backing track makes it easier because you don't only have the beat count (done by kick and snare), you also have subdivitions made by hi hats and other instruments. I also find it easier to play tight and groovy over backings than metronome.

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Phil66
Nov 15 2020, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Nov 15 2020, 08:17 PM) *
I also find it easier to play tight and groovy over backings than metronome.


The metronome, though unmusical, is the sergeant major of practise tools. You have to totally tune in mentally, if you master the discipline that the metronome demands you can master anything IMHO. I've never managed though laugh.gif

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Nov 15 2020, 10:55 PM


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Todd Simpson
Nov 16 2020, 03:38 AM
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Some great replies! The bumblefood vid is very good. Forcing oneself to play slowly can be a challenge. We always want to push it faster. Often before our hands are ready. Playing with a metronome is about
focusing on two things at once. What you are playing and the click that governs when you play.
Being able to focus on these two things takes work. Slow things down to the point where
you can control the strikes happening spot on with the click. Your internal metronome
will develop as you play and you won't need a click track after that smile.gif

Being able to "count time" in simple 4/4 is a good start. Count it with a metronome to synch your internal click with the metronome. Sometimes it's easier without the guitar. Just count out loud. 1,2,3,4 with the clicks and clacks.

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Phil66
Nov 16 2020, 08:37 AM
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And do the reverse of what we normally do, go as slow as you can on the metronome then when you can do it at that BPM, slow it down a few clicks.

It's always good to record it with a click source in your DAW too, then you can compare visually, you can't always hear it when you're concentrating on playing.

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klasaine
Nov 16 2020, 05:32 PM
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A long time ago I was very fortunate to be able to take two months of lessons from Steve Vai. Eight lessons all in all.
Vai is a metronome freak!
One of the exercises he had me do was was to clap on the beat with the metronome and try to make the 'click' disappear. Harder than it seems, especially for any real duration. Also only clapping on the "off" beats (the 1/8 notes). Also extremely difficult at first. Fast speeds or slow speeds - both have their challenges.

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Phil66
Nov 16 2020, 08:33 PM
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Very interesting Ken,

Please share your experience in the Chill Out zone, it would be interesting to hear how he was as a teacher cool.gif

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Victor Simion
Nov 17 2020, 04:45 PM
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Thank you all for help, and nice and relaxing exercise from Bumblefoot.
I will start practicing this one.

I think the most effective way is to play this exercise just a tiny fraction behind the beat, just where you risk being in front of the beat, without being in front of the beat, just to develop more control over the beat.

I find it that it sounds better when playing a little bit behind the beat than playing in front of the beat.
What do you think?

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Phil66
Nov 17 2020, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Victor Simion @ Nov 17 2020, 03:45 PM) *
Thank you all for help, and nice and relaxing exercise from Bumblefoot.
I will start practicing this one.

I think the most effective way is to play this exercise just a tiny fraction behind the beat, just where you risk being in front of the beat, without being in front of the beat, just to develop more control over the beat.

I find it that it sounds better when playing a little bit behind the beat than playing in front of the beat.
What do you think?


Yes,

Bumblefoot covers all of this in the video, he says (tongue in cheek), you're better playing the wrong notes behind the beat than the right notes ahead of the beat". He also says that it will always sound better just behind the beat.

It's a very relaxing exercise and you can zone out in the right frame of mind.

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klasaine
Nov 18 2020, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 16 2020, 12:33 PM) *
Very interesting Ken,

Please share your experience in the Chill Out zone, it would be interesting to hear how he was as a teacher cool.gif


It was along time ago and it was only 8 lessons. Just before the DLR gig.
We worked on chord voicings and improvisation and talked a lot about music theory and harmony. This included rhythmic studies and a lot of metronome work.
Something we did not really get into was technique.
At the beginning of my first lesson he asked me what I wanted to learn. I said technique and some of your concept for improvising. He said, "OK lets jam over this progression" (I don't remember what it was). So we played for a bit and he says, "Your technique is fine, just keep practicing whatever you're doing ... and make sure you work with a metronome. Do you know 'how' to work with the metronome?" The rest of that first lesson we clapped along with the metronome and tried to make the clicks disappear. In the subsequent lessons he had me write all the modes of the major scale starting from a common root tone and then find simple two or three chord progressions that are indicative of each mode.
He was pretty much all business and if you didn't practice something sufficiently he'd tell you and then tell you that you were wasting your money.
It was great experience. Very "real world".

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Phil66
Nov 18 2020, 06:57 PM
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Interesting, thanks Ken, I think he may have got his teaching method from Satch, apparently he was all business too.

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Todd Simpson
Nov 18 2020, 08:04 PM
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Tedious as it may be at first, VAI is spot on IMHO. One does need to work with a metronome, especially at first. Eventually, one develops an internal metronome. A "sense" of time. Until then, a reference click is handy. Of course, a drum patter can work as well, or even a music backing, provided it's steady. The important thing is to be able to "make the click disapear" this is the most brilliant metronome technique I've ever heard honestly. If you can make the click disappear you are playing right on top of the beat. Clap to it, get used to finding the time. Then try to play to it. It's a foundational skill. Once you have it, playing with a backing, people, etc, gets much easier.


QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 18 2020, 01:27 PM) *
It was along time ago and it was only 8 lessons. Just before the DLR gig.
We worked on chord voicings and improvisation and talked a lot about music theory and harmony. This included rhythmic studies and a lot of metronome work.
Something we did not really get into was technique.
At the beginning of my first lesson he asked me what I wanted to learn. I said technique and some of your concept for improvising. He said, "OK lets jam over this progression" (I don't remember what it was). So we played for a bit and he says, "Your technique is fine, just keep practicing whatever you're doing ... and make sure you work with a metronome. Do you know 'how' to work with the metronome?" The rest of that first lesson we clapped along with the metronome and tried to make the clicks disappear. In the subsequent lessons he had me all the modes starting from a common root tone and then find simple two or three chord chord progressions that are indicative of each mode.
He was pretty much all business and if you didn't practice something sufficiently he'd tell you and then tell you that you were wasting your money.
It was great experience. Very "real world".

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


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klasaine
Nov 19 2020, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 18 2020, 10:57 AM) *
Interesting, thanks Ken, I think he may have got his teaching method from Satch, apparently he was all business too.


One of the reasons I rarely teach private guitar lessons is that I just can't deal with guys not doing the work. I don't need the money that badly.

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