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Lesson Series Suggestion
Phil66
Mar 26 2021, 06:00 PM
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Hello Kris and so instructors.

For all the collabs, workshops etc, I've always improvised my solos, maybe done a few attempts building different things. But improvised for the main part.

I'm wondering if a series of lessons might be a good thing concentrating on how to construct/compose a solo following chord changes etc and building into a climax.

It could incorporate different note lengths, phrasing, transitions, all sorts of things that go into a good solo.

I think by covering all of the element in a structured way, it could also help improvisational skills.

Cheers

Phil

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klasaine
Mar 26 2021, 07:08 PM
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Tangential but related ...
Have you ever copied a solo note for note from a recording?
This is the best as well as the time honored way of learning how to construct a good solo.
*A lesson series on "how to effectively transcribe" is a great idea.

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Phil66
Mar 26 2021, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 26 2021, 06:08 PM) *
Tangential but related ...
Have you ever copied a solo note for note from a recording?
This is the best as well as the time honored way of learning how to construct a good solo.
*A lesson series on "how to effectively transcribe" is a great idea.


Thanks Ken,

I've only ever transcribed a few things, Adele's vocal on Someone Like You, a few other things and my favourite transcription (not my favourite song though) is the intro in the song below. That's when I realised Mr Weller knows his stuff. My ear is really bad and the only way I could do it was to put them in my DAW and get the first note by slowing that individual note and looping it then worrying it the next one. That's where I found the Weller intro tricky because I could hear that I had the right note, or at least I thought I had but it didn't sound right, neither did a fret above or below, then I discovered the difference between wound strings and plain strings and things like that, and all because Weller uses a lot of the neck from open strings up to the 14th fret (iirc).

https://youtu.be/0HMAVU1k7kg


Cheers

Stay safe

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Kristofer Dahl
Mar 26 2021, 07:46 PM
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This is a great suggestion Phil, and Gab and I are actually discussing new series in this very moment.

I think covering the basics for both lead and rhythm is a good idea.

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Phil66
Mar 26 2021, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 26 2021, 06:46 PM) *
I think covering the basics for both lead and rhythm is a good idea.


Thanks Kris,

My next suggestion in another thread was going to be building a rhythm track, I hear people say things like "bridge", "middle eight" etc and have looked them up on Google, but impingement them and know which chords to use etc is a whole other ball game.

Cheers

Stay safe

Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Mar 26 2021, 10:02 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Mar 26 2021, 09:42 PM
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Thanks Phil for the suggestion! I also think that we need to cover this topic starting with the basics.


QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 26 2021, 03:46 PM) *
This is a great suggestion Phil, and Gab and I are actually discussing new series in this very moment.

I think covering the basics for both lead and rhythm is a good idea.



Exactly!

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Phil66
Mar 26 2021, 10:04 PM
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further development on the idea. It could initially be two separate courses to start with, Course A: lead/solo and Course B: Rhythm and then a third course, combining the two. I think it would be a great thing for student to learn how to craft a rhythm and then play lead over it and also a solo somewhere in the middle maybe over a different chord progression.

What do you think?

Stay safe.

Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Mar 26 2021, 10:05 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
Mar 29 2021, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Mar 26 2021, 06:04 PM) *
further development on the idea. It could initially be two separate courses to start with, Course A: lead/solo and Course B: Rhythm and then a third course, combining the two. I think it would be a great thing for student to learn how to craft a rhythm and then play lead over it and also a solo somewhere in the middle maybe over a different chord progression.

What do you think?

Stay safe.

Phil



Yes, this sounds good Phil! Be sure that this stuff is coming. wink.gif

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PosterBoy
Mar 29 2021, 02:35 PM
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Gab's friday night sessions were good where he broke down a band's style and then created similar riffs using the approaches.

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 02:50 AM
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Just gonna go with this in this thread. Got an idea just now for a lesson series:

How about a lesson doing a specific melody in style of various guitar players?

I.e. presenting a melodic idea and phrase and then showing how Petrucci might play it, Vai, Nick Johnson, Malmsteen, SRV, Joe Pass or whoever you can think of.

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Phil66
Oct 12 2021, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 12 2021, 02:50 AM) *
Just gonna go with this in this thread. Got an idea just now for a lesson series:

How about a lesson doing a specific melody in style of various guitar players?

I.e. presenting a melodic idea and phrase and then showing how Petrucci might play it, Vai, Nick Johnson, Malmsteen, SRV, Joe Pass or whoever you can think of.


I find this very interesting but beyond my brain power laugh.gif I'm not saying don't do it, it's a great idea but when you see videos on YT showing how Malmsteen would play Van Halen, etc, it blows my mind how people can work that out. I think Ben Higgins has a couple of those out where he demonstrates how numerous players would play someone else's stuff. It's another level ohmy.gif

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 12 2021, 08:13 AM) *
I find this very interesting but beyond my brain power laugh.gif I'm not saying don't do it, it's a great idea but when you see videos on YT showing how Malmsteen would play Van Halen, etc, it blows my mind how people can work that out. I think Ben Higgins has a couple of those out where he demonstrates how numerous players would play someone else's stuff. It's another level ohmy.gif


I think these small personal flavors are how I recognize certain players. I'm sure you might feel there's a difference in how SRV plays and how Gilmour plays, and maybe you can even pinpoint some of these subtle differences and think of how they would do things differently. For instance off the top of my head Gilmour often bends a bit slower up to notes and SRV does other things. I'm not too familiar with SRV, but was trying to pick one you might know well.

But for instance, as I'm trying to explain here with guitarists I know, Petrucci might do the melody with some bends from notes that are in the scale, where as Marty Friedman in his earlier days did some bends from outside notes (in the melody line). Jason Becker used his whammy bar quite a bit, Malmsteen might do some arpeggio runs or scale runs to lead up to the melody.

I tried doing a quick example explanation off the top of my head. Mistakes and all as I just let the camera run, and this of course also means that I don't get anywhere near sounding like these players, as I'd need to study their stuff a bit more smile.gif



-----------------------------

EDIT adding another lesson/topic idea.

Idea for a lesson or topic at the very least: "Recovering from playing mistakes". I,e you are playing live and play a wrong note or chord and you feel like you lose track of what's happening, how to come in the right place again and so on. Maybe there are some tips and tricks for people. Doesn't have to be a lesson, but it could be somehow... haven't thought it through.

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Phil66
Oct 12 2021, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 12 2021, 12:27 PM) *
EDIT adding another lesson/topic idea.

Idea for a lesson or topic at the very least: "Recovering from playing mistakes". I,e you are playing live and play a wrong note or chord and you feel like you lose track of what's happening, how to come in the right place again and so on. Maybe there are some tips and tricks for people. Doesn't have to be a lesson, but it could be somehow... haven't thought it through.


I'll check your video out later but that lesson idea is good. I used to really really struggle with this, I always had to go back to the beginning, now I can just pick up again, somewhere in the next few bars but a "Recovery Skills" lesson would be great. I guess you have to really know the piece inside out to be able to jump right back in.

Cheers

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 12 2021, 02:53 PM) *
I'll check your video out later but that lesson idea is good. I used to really really struggle with this, I always had to go back to the beginning, now I can just pick up again, somewhere in the next few bars but a "Recovery Skills" lesson would be great. I guess you have to really know the piece inside out to be able to jump right back in.

Cheers


I still struggle with this laugh.gif

Maybe something about memorizing techniques too. How to memorize a piece or techniques for that - which could relate to "recovering skills". I do use certain "landmarks" at times. I.e. know that when the drums play a certain cymbal or the keyboard plays a variation in a chord it means the chorus is coming up and so on. Maybe that's a bad explanation, but I think you get what I mean. Not necesarily the exact drumfill leading into the chorus, but it could be a slight variation somewhere that cues you back in.

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klasaine
Oct 12 2021, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 12 2021, 05:53 AM) *
I guess you have to really know the piece inside out to be able to jump right back in.


Yes, you absolutely need to know every section of the song and be able to play them - out of order - if you want to be able to recover when you make a mistake "live". Notice I didn't say if, I said when. Everybody blows it at least once during a show. The difference between a pro and an amateur is the recovery. Just like sports.

So how do you learn a piece so well that you can recover from anything, anywhere?
- Be able to visualize and hear all the parts/sections in your head away from your guitar.
- If you play another instrument(?), can you reasonably approximate your parts on that instrument.
- Sing all the parts.
- Know everybody else's part (in a general way).
- Play the parts/sections out of order.
- Be able to play it all the way through at least 20 times in a row sans a mistake. *Classical musicians, when they're learning a new 'solo' piece (concerto or a sonata) talk about how many times they've played the piece, not how many hours they've practiced.

I've mentioned this before but these two books are fantastic ...
The Inner Game of Tennis - Timothy Gallwey
Zen in the Art of Archery - Eugen Herrigel

Do not get the 'watered down for musicians' versions of these. Get the real OG texts.

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 12 2021, 05:28 PM) *
Yes, you absolutely need to know every section of the song and be able to play them - out of order - if you want to be able to recover when you make a mistake "live". Notice I didn't say if, I said when. Everybody blows it at least once during a show. The difference between a pro and an amateur is the recovery. Just like sports.

So how do you learn a piece so well that you can recover from anything, anywhere?
- Be able to visualize and hear all the parts/sections in your head away from your guitar.
- If you play another instrument(?), can you reasonably approximate your parts on that instrument.
- Sing all the parts.
- Know everybody else's part (in a general way).
- Play the parts/sections out of order.
- Be able to play it all the way through at least 20 times in a row sans a mistake. *Classical musicians, when they're learning a new 'solo' piece (concerto or a sonata) talk about how many times they've played the piece, not how many hours they've practiced.

I've mentioned this before but these two books are fantastic ...
The Inner Game of Tennis - Timothy Gallwey
Zen in the Art of Archery - Eugen Herrigel

Do not get the 'watered down for musicians' versions of these. Get the real OG texts.


Especially the bolded part is one of my favorites, and one of the things I mentioned in my post sort of. If you know that before going from verse 1 to verse 2 there's a double kick (or whatever else it might be) and between verse 2 and the chorus there's another different indicator it can at least help me navigate a bit.

I know that's not always possible if songs are 3 chords and the same drum groove (no fills) all throughout, but at least in my own songs I tend to add these small variations and "markers" as I tend to call them to myself, as it's easy getting lost playing the same 3 chords for 2 minutes if the drums never change and most other instruments stay the same it's easy for me to get lost anyway. Doesn't happen too often anyway, but in the past I'd sometimes get lost trying to figure out how many repititions of a progressive I had played if I was doing rhythm under a solo and there weren't any other indications. Same actually for me playing solo and getting lost in it. If it's a 1 or 2 bar progression and it's going for 32 bars I sometimes end up questioning myself and losing track if I'm at bar 30 or 32 etc.

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klasaine
Oct 12 2021, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 12 2021, 09:22 AM) *
If it's a 1 or 2 bar progression and it's going for 32 bars I sometimes end up questioning myself and losing track if I'm at bar 30 or 32 etc.


You have to learn to "feel" the symmetry ... because you don't want to actually count (unless you're reading a chart).
Being able to feel it comes from a lot of listening and playing. And I mean a lot.

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 12 2021, 07:33 PM) *
You have to learn to "feel" the symmetry ... because you don't want to actually count (unless you're reading a chart).
Being able to feel it comes from a lot of listening and playing. And I mean a lot.


To be honest, I do think I'd prefer it (as a listener too) if the rest of the instrumentalists add more intensity towards the climax of a solo (even an improvisation). I think it's preferable if it's being built up to add more and more tension/intensity, and in that way the "place" you're at in the bars can be kinda felt. I suppose sometimes you'll have less indicators and will have to rely on feeling the symmetry. But I do know what you mean. Unfortunately I don't get to play with enough people to really get it properly under my grasp. Sure, backing tracks are one thing, but being in a live playing situation is different, I feel. And it's not often that I've been in a band situation where jamming was working properly. I did play with some people 1½-2 years ago every Friday, and we usually just jammed randomly and it was always really interesting and there was a good chemistry. Unfortunately for several reasons I stopped going there.

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Caelumamittendum
Oct 12 2021, 09:22 PM
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Lesson suggestion, that might already have been done:

Finding your own voice (on the guitar). It's slightly related to the "how would this or that guitar player play a certain melody" that I suggested earlier, but maybe in regards to finding your own voice or tips on that, or how to use influences to find your own sound.

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Todd Simpson
Oct 13 2021, 01:35 AM
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Well said!!! Finding one's own "sound" that makes a player stand out is perhaps the largest challen we face as players. How to we represent ourselves without words? How do we structure notes/melody/technique in such a way that it's expressive and distinctive.

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 12 2021, 04:22 PM) *
Lesson suggestion, that might already have been done:

Finding your own voice (on the guitar). It's slightly related to the "how would this or that guitar player play a certain melody" that I suggested earlier, but maybe in regards to finding your own voice or tips on that, or how to use influences to find your own sound.

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