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> Steve Vai Offset Frets?
dk2
post Aug 20 2007, 06:46 AM
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oh hell no i like the guitar like it is now i dont need that ohmy.gif
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 06:48 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 19 2007, 09:42 PM) *
That problem has bugged the crap out of me for 30 years, although it is more of an issue when you are playing chords than lead, getting a solution that works would be pretty amazing to me, although I can't see having my Jem refretted this way - I bet it would cost a mint!

No need for lead though - as you are always tensioning microbending and vibratoing the notes anyway.



Same here Andrew.
And I spoke with Mirza from MK Guitars today about these frets.
Can't be done with regular fret-machine,must have special one for those frets.
Plus new fretboard...
Maybe we can steal one Yamaha FG model to see what is it all about biggrin.gif oups huh.gif


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fkalich
post Aug 20 2007, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 19 2007, 02:42 PM) *
That problem has bugged the crap out of me for 30 years, although it is more of an issue when you are playing chords than lead, getting a solution that works would be pretty amazing to me, although I can't see having my Jem refretted this way - I bet it would cost a mint!

No need for lead though - as you are always tensioning microbending and vibratoing the notes anyway.


Correct, the big thing would be improved minor and major 3ths. But again, it it not possible to do this without screwing up other intervals. As you point out, major 4ths and 5ths are handled quite well with equal temperament. I dare say, they will no longer be this accurate with this fretboard.

This has been tried before, on many types of instruments. I expect that at some point you will have real time artificial intelligence that can determine what you are trying to do (what key/mode you are in) and make adjustments to the frequencies involved. Actually that might be a real improvement, when it shows up eventually. I am not quick to jump on new technology as necessary, most things I think don't really add anything to the quality of life. But some things are really great leaps forward, Microwave Oven, Scoopable Kitty Litter, stuff like that. I will wait this such an item is invented.

For now, you can bend a string a bit to get the pure interval. For a minor 3rd, bend the higher string, just a bit. For a major 4th, bend the lower. I think musicians who have been around often do stuff like that anyway, without even thinking about it. their hands have just learned to get sweet tones, an it is in muscle memory.
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 08:08 AM) *
For now, you can bend a string a bit to get the pure interval. For a minor 3rd, bend the higher string, just a bit. For a major 4th, bend the lower. I think musicians who have been around often do stuff like that anyway, without even thinking about it. their hands have just learned to get sweet tones, an it is in muscle memory.



Totally agree,it's in hands I believe.
But still I would love to try it. smile.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Aug 20 2007, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 02:08 AM) *
Correct, the big thing would be improved minor and major 3ths. But again, it it not possible to do this without screwing up other intervals. As you point out, major 4ths and 5ths are handled quite well with equal temperament. I dare say, they will no longer be this accurate with this fretboard.

This has been tried before, on many types of instruments. I expect that at some point you will have real time artificial intelligence that can determine what you are trying to do (what key/mode you are in) and make adjustments to the frequencies involved. Actually that might be a real improvement, when it shows up eventually. I am not quick to jump on new technology as necessary, most things I think don't really add anything to the quality of life. But some things are really great leaps forward, Microwave Oven, Scoopable Kitty Litter, stuff like that. I will wait this such an item is invented.

For now, you can bend a string a bit to get the pure interval. For a minor 3rd, bend the higher string, just a bit. For a major 4th, bend the lower. I think musicians who have been around often do stuff like that anyway, without even thinking about it. their hands have just learned to get sweet tones, an it is in muscle memory.


Yes, spot on I think, especially the bit about experienced musicians doing this automatically - it is probably another part of the indefinable things that make some players great vs good.

(I know you hate people agreeing all the time - maybe its different when they agree with you:))


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fkalich
post Aug 20 2007, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (muris @ Aug 20 2007, 01:17 AM) *
Totally agree,it's in hands I believe.
But still I would love to try it. smile.gif



Yeah, in all honesty, we have our guitars, and here somebody comes up with something, and well, has to be stupid, not like ours. smile.gif

I am sure it has it's good qualities, and I would not mind having one. But it will definitely have weak points, that could not have been avoided. I can't spend money now, however if they would be willing to send me one for free (if anything, I expect Vai has positive cashflow on this deal), I will gleefully give an even better endorsement than Vai gave.

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 20 2007, 01:45 AM) *
Yes, spot on I think, especially the bit about experienced musicians doing this automatically - it is probably another part of the indefinable things that make some players great vs good.

(I know you hate people agreeing all the time - maybe its different when they agree with you:))


I think that when people are too agreeable, they cannot be trusted. I realize that I am full of it sometimes. Someone once told me that I only knew 25% of what I thought I knew. I resolved at that time to change. And I think I succeeded, I feel that I now know 50% of what I think I know.
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 07:55 AM
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Of course.
I don't have any idea how much it will cost,to put it on guitar...probably a lot.
Fretboard,changing the same,those frets,machine to set them on...to much.
Wish you'll get some of it tho wink.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Aug 20 2007, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 02:53 AM) *
I feel that I now know 50% of what I think I know.


smile.gif

QUOTE (muris @ Aug 20 2007, 02:55 AM) *
Of course.
I don't have any idea how much it will cost,to put it on guitar...probably a lot.
Fretboard,changing the same,those frets,machine to set them on...to much.
Wish you'll get some of it tho wink.gif


I think they sell them as pre-built necks, they were about $700 in the website. Not cheap by any means, and why would I want to some nasty non Gem neck on my guitar? So yes, Muris as I thnk you were saying, you would probably want to get a Luthier to build it into a neck of your own specs - wonder if they sell the frets on their own? Actually it probably wouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer them, the mathematics is all well known.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 20 2007, 09:19 AM
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Pre-built necks - pretty much rules out neck through body and even set necks then. I'm still not convinced by the whole argument for tbh - certainly not convinced to pay 700USD to find out; if I was worried I'd invest in a fretless.

Cheers,
Tony
ps I LIKE the slight dissonance form 1st inversion minor 7ths biggrin.gif just adds to whole minor tonality to my hearing.


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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 09:27 AM
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Spot on Tony,fretless is cool smile.gif
But what about chords etc?
It'll be real mess I guess huh.gif

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 20 2007, 10:00 AM) *
smile.gif
I think they sell them as pre-built necks, they were about $700 in the website. Not cheap by any means, and why would I want to some nasty non Gem neck on my guitar? So yes, Muris as I thnk you were saying, you would probably want to get a Luthier to build it into a neck of your own specs - wonder if they sell the frets on their own? Actually it probably wouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer them, the mathematics is all well known.



Yeah,it would be great,to add fretboard to already existing neck Andrew .
But that IS hard make..


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Aug 20 2007, 09:36 AM
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Well Jaco and Steve Swallow always seemed to manage playing chords on a fretless bass biggrin.gif and of course all the stand up bass players. (Watch a video of someone like Charlie Mingus - eyes closed and he still knows exactly where he is on his bass biggrin.gif .) Should just be a case of getting used to it I think Muris. Besides my chordal work sounds a mess frets or no frets laugh.gif .

Fretless would be great for microtonality and sliding harmonics though wink.gif . Now where did I leave that file...

Cheers,
Tony


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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Aug 20 2007, 10:36 AM) *
Well Jaco and Steve Swallow always seemed to manage playing chords on a fretless bass biggrin.gif and of course all the stand up bass players. (Watch a video of someone like Charlie Mingus - eyes closed and he still knows exactly where he is on his bass biggrin.gif .) Should just be a case of getting used to it I think Muris. Besides my chordal work sounds a mess frets or no frets laugh.gif .

Fretless would be great for microtonality and sliding harmonics though wink.gif . Now where did I leave that file...

Cheers,
Tony



laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Ryan
post Aug 20 2007, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 19 2007, 03:23 PM) *
Guitarists have played guitar for ages and none of them ever bothered with micro-detunings. I see no need in this for anyone.

i 2nd what he says!!


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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (Ryan @ Aug 20 2007, 10:50 AM) *
i 2nd what he says!!



Well,tell that to Vai or Gambale smile.gif


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fkalich
post Aug 20 2007, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 20 2007, 03:00 AM) *
smile.gif
their own? Actually it probably wouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer them, the mathematics is all well known.


They are? I have not researched this company. But this has to be some optimization algorithm subject to some rules. And no matter what they do, it is still going to be a compromise, trade offs, with imperfections based on the optimization rules. And again, there may be a strong argument that the end product is less desirable than the existing mechanism of equal temperament. I suspect that the neck not only tries to improve certain intervals at the expense of others, but also optimizes for certain "keys", again at the expense of others. I don't know this, but if I were to design such an animal, I would do that (that is what top piano tuners do). I would think there could be many variations on this theme. Please explain what I am missing if you would.
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 10:55 AM) *
They are? I have not researched this company. But this has to be some optimization algorithm subject to some rules. And no matter what they do, it is still going to be a compromise, trade offs, with imperfections based on the optimization rules. And again, there may be a strong argument that the end product is less desirable than the existing mechanism of equal temperament. I suspect that the neck not only tries to improve certain intervals at the expense of others, but also optimizes for certain "keys", again at the expense of others. I don't know this, but if I were to design such an animal, I would do that (that is what top piano tuners do). I would think there could be many variations on this theme. Please explain what I am missing if you would.



We probably need to check out the website of the company...
What was the name?

This post has been edited by muris: Aug 20 2007, 09:59 AM


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fkalich
post Aug 20 2007, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (muris @ Aug 20 2007, 03:59 AM) *
We probably need to check out the website of the company...
What was the name?


http://truetemperament.com/


looks like they have two variations, each focusing on optimizing for specific keys. You can assume that for keys not optimized, the sound will be very inferior to what you have on your straight fret guitar. So you can have a guitar that may sound better in certain keys, probably will, but will sound crappy in those it is not designed for. And keep in mind that a minor scale is not the same as a major, not in true interval. Sure Am maps to Cmaj, but the theoretical frequencies are not all the same. There are a lot of scales, a lot more than 12, which is why this sort of thing has never caught on. It has been tried before, I think with wind instruments.

Again, I would like one, but don't figure it would eliminate my other guitars by a long shot.

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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 11:16 AM) *



Thanks smile.gif


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fkalich
post Aug 20 2007, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (muris @ Aug 20 2007, 04:23 AM) *
Thanks smile.gif


they say that they don't use an algorithm. Actually if this were my deal, I would do it that way. Let the user set the optimizations, the rules (preferred keys and modes, maximum allowable errors on various intervals, stuff like that), and then have a computer generate the layout, and a robot cut the neck. That is, for rich guitar players smile.gif


edit: actually that seems like a good idea. generate the neck based on customer defined rules, then the computer could play a simulation, the customer could alter the rules until he likes the sound. Where is the patent office? Kidding I think every hair brained scheme like this under the sun has already been patented by someone. But again, not for $700.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Aug 20 2007, 10:34 AM
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Muris Varajic
post Aug 20 2007, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Aug 20 2007, 11:31 AM) *
they say that they don't use an algorithm. Actually if this were my deal, I would do it that way. Let the user set the optimizations, the rules (preferred keys and modes, maximum allowable errors on various intervals, stuff like that), and then have a computer generate the layout, and a robot cut the neck. That is, for rich guitar players smile.gif



Yeah,probably smile.gif


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