Slow Practice
azureus
Apr 29 2021, 03:23 PM
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A student graduate of Tom Hess claims slow practice is useless ?? .. what is your opinion? dry.gif

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Victor Simion
Apr 29 2021, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (azureus @ Apr 29 2021, 02:23 PM) *
A student graduate of Tom Hess claims slow practice is useless ?? .. what is your opinion? dry.gif


Can you share the article from where you got the information?

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Gabriel Leopardi
Apr 29 2021, 05:01 PM
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Attached Image

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Kristofer Dahl
Apr 29 2021, 05:02 PM
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Yes this sounds over simplified, or just downright incorrect - depending on the context.

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Mertay
Apr 29 2021, 05:17 PM
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Probably so oversimplified I don't really understand...

But I can agree with the graph. Gab shared, only if the material is created by the user and not practicing someone else's material.

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Gabriel Leopardi
Apr 29 2021, 06:16 PM
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I can confirm that is not "useless" at all, but I also think that it's not enough. That's why I shared that graphic from one of my favorite books "Effortless Mastery" that says that you can only choose 2 options from there in order to always try to practice effortlessly which brings to an effortless mastery.


Check out this quote by Troy Stetina. He shared this comment at GMC's facebook group and it's exactly how it worked for me.


"My perspective on this is that ONLY going from the 'bottom up'... slowly increasing speed... as important as it is, actually makes the barrier to playing faster worse. The problem is that it requires a different technique to play faster and you'll never get there by repeating the technique that works at slow to moderate speeds. Your experience is typical and normal. The 'workaround' is to practice at higher speeds, which you can do by simplifying the mechanics involved and going for one aspect at a time. Start with tremolo picking to get fast motion. Then time it. Then synchronize with left hand... like ex 25 Speed Mechanics, etc. Then introduce string crossing mechanics. This way, your speed will be up significantly (above your current 'threshold') and you will approach your 'barrier' from both directions.... above and below. This isn't meant to replace 'slow and increasing speed' practice, but to supplement it so you can get the right feel for what it's like to play faster, and then you are actually starting to practice the RIGHT motions. And when you hit it like that, the "speed barriers" become soft and pliable, and gradually just melt away. "

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jstcrsn
Apr 29 2021, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 29 2021, 06:16 PM) *
"My perspective on this is that ONLY going from the 'bottom up'... slowly increasing speed... as important as it is, actually makes the barrier to playing faster worse. The problem is that it requires a different technique to play faster and you'll never get there by repeating the technique that works at slow to moderate speeds.

This is what I have found, if you play 16th notes at 80-90 bpms you can not minimize your movements as your movements have to be larger to get the swing of the song to achieve nice alternate picking and when you hit about 110 is where you movement gets minimized and the in between is the battle ground that is hardest to achieve .
So if you hit that wall try increasing your speed to where it is not to fast but minimized movements. the easiest exercise is picking a single note, watch how when you play slow you naturally swing to stay in tempo and the as your speed increases watch how all of a sudden your picking hand will automatically start to make smaller movements and when you find that speed that is where you need to start working backwards to get that in between range that kicks everybody butt.
Now these speeds will vary for everyone and you need to find your in between range and I know I used the word movement way to much and deserve all the jokes that might move my way

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Todd Simpson
Apr 29 2021, 10:22 PM
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I hear this argument now and then. It seems to be mostly about going against the accepted wisdom in an effort to generate interest in the approach. In all honesty, starting out playing a bit slower is usually required. After all, if we just jump in and play faster than our ability, we get sloppy playing. One can play at any speed that one's ability will allow. it's just that, especially during new training phases, the hands need to slow down a bit in order to maintain control. There are a variety of ways one can increase speed, for example, picking less and using more legato, traversing strings instead of traversing frets. Etc. As gabe mentions, building up is just part of the process, but it's not the whole thing.

BURST speed, or playing in small bursts of fast notes, is one way that players can play a bit above their current ability. it's a valid approach imho. It allows the hands to see what it will be like in the future. There is no way around building up speed imho, assuming one wants to play in a precise controlled manner and not in a sloppy fashion.

I've seen some players just dive in to playing way beyond their ability and they can sorta do it, but they sacrifice a lot of precision for the sake of speed which doesn't seem to be a great trade off.



QUOTE (azureus @ Apr 29 2021, 10:23 AM) *
A student graduate of Tom Hess claims slow practice is useless ?? .. what is your opinion? dry.gif

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 29 2021, 10:25 PM
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MonkeyDAthos
Apr 30 2021, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 29 2021, 10:22 PM) *
BURST speed, or playing in small bursts of fast notes, is one way that players can play a bit above their current ability. it's a valid approach imho. It allows the hands to see what it will be like in the future. There is no way around building up speed imho, assuming one wants to play in a precise controlled manner and not in a sloppy fashion.


100% agree.

Although I often see a lot of your regular "fast players" with the shittest of timinngs. (sorry my french)
Either in the slower/faster playing.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Apr 30 2021, 12:39 AM


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PosterBoy
Apr 30 2021, 07:47 AM
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I take anything from Tom Hess with a pinch of salt and so that goes for his students too.

Having said that

Ben used to talk about speed burst about taking a small section and just ramping the speed up.

I agree your picking changes when playing slowly or fast, and also your fretting does.

I struggle with speed but every now and then something clicks and things get better, and I try and work out what I did.

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Kristofer Dahl
Apr 30 2021, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 29 2021, 07:16 PM) *
"My perspective on this is that ONLY going from the 'bottom up'... slowly increasing speed... as important as it is, actually makes the barrier to playing faster worse. The problem is that it requires a different technique to play faster and you'll never get there by repeating the technique that works at slow to moderate speeds. Your experience is typical and normal. The 'workaround' is to practice at higher speeds, which you can do by simplifying the mechanics involved and going for one aspect at a time. Start with tremolo picking to get fast motion. Then time it. Then synchronize with left hand... like ex 25 Speed Mechanics, etc. Then introduce string crossing mechanics. This way, your speed will be up significantly (above your current 'threshold') and you will approach your 'barrier' from both directions.... above and below. This isn't meant to replace 'slow and increasing speed' practice, but to supplement it so you can get the right feel for what it's like to play faster, and then you are actually starting to practice the RIGHT motions. And when you hit it like that, the "speed barriers" become soft and pliable, and gradually just melt away. "


This is a good strategy for starters.

When you have done it a few times, you realise what types of motion convert to high speeds - so then you can use only those motions when practicing slowly.

This turns slow practicing into the absolute best strategy for clean, relaxed and fast playing.

But to clarify: If you don't know how playing fast feels, then you can indeed try boosting speed once in a while to see what type of muscle movement is needed.

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azureus
Apr 30 2021, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (Victor Simion @ Apr 29 2021, 03:28 PM) *
Can you share the article from where you got the information?




rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (azureus @ Apr 30 2021, 10:31 AM) *
rolleyes.gif



Thank you all for the time and the valuable answers! !! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

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Caelumamittendum
Apr 30 2021, 02:56 PM
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I stumbled across this video, which may be relevant. Rick is an amazing guitar player of course.

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jstcrsn
Apr 30 2021, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 30 2021, 02:56 PM) *
I stumbled across this video, which may be relevant. Rick is an amazing guitar player of course.

Look at how his picking hand swings larger to keep the slower tempo and minimizes when picking fast, it's that middles ground in between that people stop at and at that point they need to find where their minimal movement starts by picking 1 string and that is the speed they need to jump to , of course always have your brain end practice with perfection so slow it back to that at the end of practice.

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klasaine
Apr 30 2021, 05:53 PM
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1) who's Tom Hess?
2) who cares what one of his 'students' says.
3) stuff like this is why the internet can suck hard.

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MonkeyDAthos
Apr 30 2021, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 30 2021, 05:53 PM) *
1) who's Tom Hess?
2) who cares what one of his 'students' says.
3) stuff like this is why the internet can suck hard.


I dont wanna say cult leader, but laugh.gif i always got that vibe from him.

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Todd Simpson
Apr 30 2021, 09:54 PM
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Rick is the man!!! He uses a lot of demonstration in his vids which I like a lot. Some guys mostly just talk.

The hand will change a bit when one speedS up. The amount of pick wag (how far the hand moves beyond the strike point) will decrease and left hand motion will get smaller as well. it sorta has to as there is less time to recover between each strike. For some players this isn't natural and they still use the same amount of hand wag when trying to speed up and it doesn't work. It's important to find more efficient hand motion as speed increases. At top speed your pick hand should look like it's barely moving and your fret hand should stay very close to the strings.

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 30 2021, 09:56 AM) *
I stumbled across this video, which may be relevant. Rick is an amazing guitar player of course.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 30 2021, 10:50 PM
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Todd Simpson
Apr 30 2021, 10:55 PM
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Here is Tom Hess talking about playing cleanly and then having string noise at the end of his sweep licks smile.gif

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Caelumamittendum
May 8 2021, 01:11 AM
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Interestingly I noticed one thing in Max Ostro's playing from watching a lesson from him. I know we've talked about picking technique changing in playing faster and slower.

What I noticed was how his fretting hand seemed much more stiff and less relaxed when playing slow. His pinky was lifted way off the fretboard and sort of curled in, in a manner that I tend to do too. However, when he plays fast there is almost no movement from the fingers in his fretting hand away from the fretboard.

It's probably worth noting the fretting hand in the equation to play fast too.

I forgot where I'm going with this, but I wanted to post it anyway, as it was just an observation.

Here's an example of Max Ostro's great fretting hand technique:



Unfortunately I can't link the video where he shows some licks from his fusion series, as it's on another site.

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Gabriel Leopardi
May 8 2021, 05:17 AM
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Yes, it really makes sense to use a different technique for slow and fast passages.

Following Cael's tendency of wanting to share a related video but not being sure of why, laugh.gif, I would like to add this one in which Guthrie says that he prefers economy picking over alternate picking because it allows him to control dynamics even when playing extremely fast.

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