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> Completing Sclaes
steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 05:09 AM
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So at the moment i'm learning the pentatonic minor scale mainly and was just wondering something about being able to play in all keys. At the moment i'm concentrating mainly on A and G minor pentatonics. I can play all 5 boxes, and can link them and i'm now trying to play A and G together so that i can change keys during soloing and stuff. All i going well but do i have to learn all 12 to be able to totally be able to play the pentatonic minor or is there no need for this? What i mean is would i be able to jus learn A, B, C, D, E, F and G and leave out the #s? Or would i literally have to go through the same thing with all of them? Hope this helps

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Andrew Cockburn
post Sep 4 2007, 05:19 AM
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You really just need to learn the patterns once, then move them up or down to get any key you need. Don't think about the fret position, think about the notes relative to each other. Then you just need to use the root note to figure out the scale and you are away with only 5 boxes needing to be learnt!


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 05:23 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Sep 4 2007, 05:19 AM) *
You really just need to learn the patterns once, then move them up or down to get any key you need. Don't think about the fret position, think about the notes relative to each other. Then you just need to use the root note to figure out the scale and you are away with only 5 boxes needing to be learnt!


I wish that was the case with me however it failed to work. I was told this and tried learning just the 5 boxes and moved about. I can do it if all i'm doing is just playing the scales up and down but when i want to actually improvise i get lost in no time especially when i switch boxes, and i'd be buggered when i change key unfortunatly i've had to learn A and G seperatly
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Andrew Cockburn
post Sep 4 2007, 05:37 AM
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This is definitely the way to do it - if not, you will have to learn 12 x 5 boxes for Pentatonic, then another 12 x 5 for 5 Major, same for minor, instead of 5 for each. You just won't be able to progress until you get this down, or you will make a rod for your back. I know it seems hard, but practice, practice practice until you can move the patterns and improvise with them - its the only way!

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Sep 4 2007, 05:37 AM


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Sep 4 2007, 05:37 AM) *
This is definitely the way to do it - if not, you will have to learn 12 x 5 boxes for Pentatonic, then another 12 x 5 for 5 Major, same for minor, instead of 5 for each. You just won't be able to progress until you get this down, or you will make a rod for your back. I know it seems hard, but practice, practice practice until you can move the patterns and improvise with them - its the only way!


Seems a bit hectic i really don't know how i'm going to be able to do this i can't see how this can possibly work but i'll try. I can see myself going completely off the scale every single time, or playing something that isn't a pentatonic scale at all
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Andrew Cockburn
post Sep 4 2007, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Sep 4 2007, 12:50 AM) *
Seems a bit hectic i really don't know how i'm going to be able to do this i can't see how this can possibly work but i'll try. I can see myself going completely off the scale every single time, or playing something that isn't a pentatonic scale at all


Practicing scales is great for teaching your fingers where to go - how much have you practiced the pentatonic? You should find you don't have to think about it after a while. In the scheme of things this isn't a big deal when you have practiced enough to get it down. I'm not belittling the trouble you are having at all, everyone has something that they can't pick up straight away, but this is the way that everyone else does it and it works, trust me!

Maybe you should not practice a specific scale, but play a different one each time you practice. Concentrate on one box until you can move it up and down without thinking about it, but pick a different root note each time so that you have to concentrate on the pattern, not the number of frets you are from the nut.


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 06:13 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Sep 4 2007, 06:06 AM) *
Practicing scales is great for teaching your fingers where to go - how much have you practiced the pentatonic? You should find you don't have to think about it after a while. In the scheme of things this isn't a big deal when you have practiced enough to get it down. I'm not belittling the trouble you are having at all, everyone has something that they can't pick up straight away, but this is the way that everyone else does it and it works, trust me!

Maybe you should not practice a specific scale, but play a different one each time you practice. Concentrate on one box until you can move it up and down without thinking about it, but pick a different root note each time so that you have to concentrate on the pattern, not the number of frets you are from the nut.


I've been practicing the pentatonic minor for quite a while. I can play all 5 boxes no problem and can link them no prblem as well. I could play up and down the fretobard in A and G all day long and not mess up, seperatly though. I know all 5 boxes very well and know them easily. i guess i'm having to learn the notes on the fretboard for this then? This is going to take a looooong time
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Andrew Cockburn
post Sep 4 2007, 06:23 AM
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No, you don;t need to learn the notes - just be able to figure them out. You just need to divorce any reference to the rest of the guitar from where you start your scale and see it in terms of the relationship between just the notes that you play ... I'm sorry of I can;t explain it better, but it really is simple to do when you have the trick of it. As I said earlier, forget all 5 boxes, just learn to play one of them all up and down the neck then add the others when you can do that.


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Sep 4 2007, 06:23 AM) *
No, you don;t need to learn the notes - just be able to figure them out. You just need to divorce any reference to the rest of the guitar from where you start your scale and see it in terms of the relationship between just the notes that you play ... I'm sorry of I can;t explain it better, but it really is simple to do when you have the trick of it. As I said earlier, forget all 5 boxes, just learn to play one of them all up and down the neck then add the others when you can do that.


So what you're saying is learn 1 box and learn to play that in all keys fluently. For example, play it up and down in A then be able to switch it to say E fluently without any problems then learn 2 and do the same? Then link those boxes together and play them together fluently with all the keys as well?
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Andrew Cockburn
post Sep 4 2007, 06:46 AM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Sep 4 2007, 01:27 AM) *
So what you're saying is learn 1 box and learn to play that in all keys fluently. For example, play it up and down in A then be able to switch it to say E fluently without any problems then learn 2 and do the same? Then link those boxes together and play them together fluently with all the keys as well?


Not necessarily at the same time, but be confident that you can pick any of the 12 keys and play that box. When you have done that you should have no reliance on the actual position on the neck, and hopefully learning the other boxes will become a lot easier as you will learn them relative to the first box.


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Pavel
post Sep 4 2007, 06:59 AM
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Andrew gave you some good advices here m8! It's not that difficult. Once you know all the boxes (for example Pentatonic major/minor or major scales, or minor scales) all you have to do is to apply the box to a root note.

Improvisation is however a different pair of shoes. You can't go up and down a scale to improvise but still that's how we all started. i remember my lesson with teacher when he told me to improvise over 1 pentatonic box and i was just playing a scale up and down. Today it looks soooo funny but back than i couldn't do any better.

When improvising you have to kinda sing your solo in your head. If you can't sing what you want to play - you won't be able to play it.

And don't worry about loosing yourself in the scale. it will be gone with time. smile.gif

Keep practicing! smile.gif


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 06:48 PM
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Ok thanks Pavel, just a bit confused which is the best way to practice and learn scales. Last night i tried improvising and changing keys with just one scale box and i found it easy. Going From one key to another with just 1 pentatonic minor shape was easy for me. I'm a bit confused as how i actually link these boxes together now. And what you said is true, playing a scale up and down and improvising is a whole different ball game. Sure i could play scales up and down and go into different keys and stuff, but when it comes to actually soloing and improvising i'd get lost in seconds because it's toally different stuff.
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JOhn
post Sep 4 2007, 07:12 PM
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i know im kinda invading your topic but when you say move the box you mean more it to a different position but keep the exact same shape right? so if i was playing on g of the third fret of the first string i would move it to the 5 fret to get A pentonic and i wold keep the same shape?


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steve25
post Sep 4 2007, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (JOhn @ Sep 4 2007, 07:12 PM) *
i know im kinda invading your topic but when you say move the box you mean more it to a different position but keep the exact same shape right? so if i was playing on g of the third fret of the first string i would move it to the 5 fret to get A pentonic and i wold keep the same shape?


Yeah you can do that and that would be switching keys, but there are 5 boxes in the scale so although that would be fine you would be very limited to what you could solo. Which is why i don't want to stick to just one box i want to be able to play in all 5 of them
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