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> Maturity Level, people slamming other people here
Owen
post Sep 15 2007, 07:50 AM
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Personally I think we're going a bit overboard here. Half the people that have posted in this topic havent noticed anything at all and if we were to all get on with each other and not say anything in the least contentious then this board would not fulfill its purpose as a place for discussion.

I dont think we should change who we all are to abide by stringent rules for discussion, there's always going to be points of conflict and as long as they dont go overboard, which I'm sure they wont, then people must learn to live with it.

Not everyone shares the same opinion or outlook and no matter how much moderation there is, this is never going to be the case.

Edit: I also think people are stating the obvious here, I have never seen any downright flaming on these forums in my time here, yet it still seems to be an apt point for discussion and all the UG bashing just seems to be biting the hand that feeds this site, half the members found their way from there in the first place.

This post has been edited by Owen: Sep 15 2007, 07:53 AM


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MickeM
post Sep 15 2007, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (RobM @ Sep 14 2007, 06:39 AM) *
I've noticed lately that some people are slamming other people when they ask a question. I've also seen it done with an opening line like: "No offence but". If you already knew what you were going to say was going to offend the other person(which you did by adding the above line) then why say it in the first place?

Good point, I've noticed it too. It used to be zero slamming, lately it's increased a bit, not much yet but it's better to be proactive than too late.

Last couple of weeks I've been doing more home improvement and very stressed just check in here once a day and I can notice that the forum is growing to the extend that there can be four unread pages to view on a good day. As the forum grows and people get less familiar maybe it's easier to come down on someone and then disappear in the massive posting. I can't tell since I've tried to sort out the important threads these busy last couple of weeks and have possibly missed the latest events.

Then what the slamming could be aswell is two friends pushing eachother around. Not being familiar with all the nicks and who's hanging with whom in the PM and chat it's possible to mistake friendly tickeling for something bad.

And the "No offence but" - right on spot what you said, it just means something offensive is about to be said.
"No offence MickeM but you sucked in that colabboration" is as bad as "MickeM you sucked in that colabboration".

G'night! smile.gif


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Ayen
post Sep 15 2007, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Sep 15 2007, 02:24 AM) *
Thanks for pointing that out Rok - Everyone go and read it immediately!

Now, a word about my moderation policy ... I try very hard to do nothing at all. Sounds like a cop out I know, but the way I see it, the less I am doing the better GMC is working as a community. If I go around deleting posts all the time and blocking users, GMC will be like a police state. One thing that always pleases me is when someone makes a harsh statement, or is unkind or rude, and regular members step in to take the person to task. That means the community is self policing, and a nice place to hang out because that is the way people want it to be, not because Kris and I are forcing it to be that way.

Make no mistake though, I read every post and when I see rudeness or bad language I will take action, fortunately it is very rare that I have to do anything - GMC is basically a very decent place.

Sometimes members in good faith disagree with each other, its bound to happen. If people disagree with respect that is healthy and should be encouraged. We aren't all a bunch of angels sitting on clouds, we are real people with passionate opinions about music and I wouldn't have it any other way.

As soon as a thread starts getting heated I camp on it - I will make sure I am notified for every post that is made, and if it becomes too heated I will often say something - when I post in bold italics, that is my "listen to me " voice - if people don't get the hint after that I will lock the thread, sometimes temporarily to let people cool down, if it is an interesting subject, or forever if it is a forbidden subject such as threads about file copying or drug use.

If I post to a thread that, is a level 1 warning - just a reminder to be a little more careful. The next stage is a PM - when I PM you about your forum behavior it goes on your record so that we can refer back to it. As moderators we see on everyones posts how many times they have been warned. Eventually, if people need to be warned too many times, for repeat offenses we will consider temporary or permanent forum bans, although I haven't personally needed to ban anyone so far.

If anyone is offended by anything that anyone says on GMC, drop me or Kris a PM. We both care very deeply about keeping this a pleasant place to hang out, we will take whatever action is necessary to keep it that way.

These principles are all enshrined in the posting guidelines - be familiar with them!


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RobM
post Sep 15 2007, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Sep 15 2007, 03:00 AM) *
Good point, I've noticed it too. It used to be zero slamming, lately it's increased a bit, not much yet but it's better to be proactive than too late.

Last couple of weeks I've been doing more home improvement and very stressed just check in here once a day and I can notice that the forum is growing to the extend that there can be four unread pages to view on a good day. As the forum grows and people get less familiar maybe it's easier to come down on someone and then disappear in the massive posting. I can't tell since I've tried to sort out the important threads these busy last couple of weeks and have possibly missed the latest events.

Then what the slamming could be aswell is two friends pushing eachother around. Not being familiar with all the nicks and who's hanging with whom in the PM and chat it's possible to mistake friendly tickeling for something bad.

And the "No offence but" - right on spot what you said, it just means something offensive is about to be said.
"No offence MickeM but you sucked in that colabboration" is as bad as "MickeM you sucked in that colabboration".

G'night! smile.gif


Thanks, I was starting to think I might have grown a thin skin with all the "I have not noticed anything" posts. unsure.gif I guess it all depends on what you read? I try to read most if not all posts that are on the board to see what is going on. I love Andrew's approach to Modding, it's the best one and the one that works the best, especially for a place like GMC where so many cool people come to hang out and share ideas, their knowledge and advice.


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fkalich
post Sep 15 2007, 11:41 AM
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first, I think Andrew should be thanked for what he does. Whether I agree with him entirely or not (who does agree with anyone entirely?) without him, things could deteriorate quickly. I very much appreciate what he does here, as I am sure Kris does. However, that being said....

I disagree entirely with the sunshine blowing crowd. Does not help anyone, just encourages mediocrity (at best). I figure I have to stay in line within bounds of the owner of the site, or I won't be here. But as far as others are concern...I don't agree with all that happy horse poopy way of expressing yourself.

Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

I am not saying that event made any difference, but I know she did not over achieve because everybody clapped for her every time she remembered to flush after she used the toilet.

Oh, almost forgot....


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GroovinMastiff
post Sep 15 2007, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2007, 07:41 AM) *
first, I think Andrew should be thanked for what he does. Whether I agree with him entirely or not (who does agree with anyone entirely?) without him, things could deteriorate quickly. I very much appreciate what he does here, as I am sure Kris does. However, that being said....

I disagree entirely with the sunshine blowing crowd. Does not help anyone, just encourages mediocrity (at best). I figure I have to stay in line within bounds of the owner of the site, or I won't be here. But as far as others are concern...I don't agree with all that happy horse poopy way of expressing yourself.

Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

I am not saying that event made any difference, but I know she did not over achieve because everybody clapped for her every time she remembered to flush after she used the toilet.

Oh, almost forgot....
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif


Well said.

There often seems to be a fine line between being encouraging someone and patronizing them. I am fairly certain that people would rather hear the truth about themselves instead of contrived, sugary rhetoric that has no other purpose other than to spare one's feelings. And as is pointed out above, the truth is likely to be more beneficial in the long run.

Life is full of people who don't give a damn about sparing people's feelings and will tell you straight up what they think of you. So I think that it is healthy to hear some criticism every now and again to build up your psychological immune system so that you can easily shake off all the nonsense that you will hear throughout your life, and use all the useful criticism that you hear to improve yourself.

That being said, if someone is given sincere encouragement because it is warranted, that someone will know that you are being sincere rather than patronizing, and they will likely appreciate your kind words because deep down they know that they earned it. Now, if someone is insincerely praised - even if the praiser had the best of intentions - they will likely see right through it, and think of you as patronizing, and therefore unwilling to to help them achieve what they want to. And again, they will sense this because deep down they know the truth themselves.

And honestly, this is the best place to hang out on the internet, and the mods and the members deserve praise for keeping it from turning into a pile of nonsensical comments a la Youtube, and fortunately I don't see it changing to that anytime soon cool.gif


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JOhn
post Sep 15 2007, 12:35 PM
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i like it when people give me negative comment becuase it means im getting the truth. I hate it when people say that wasn't to good when it completely sucks.


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blindwillie
post Sep 15 2007, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2007, 12:41 PM) *
Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

I am not saying that event made any difference, but I know she did not over achieve because everybody clapped for her every time she remembered to flush after she used the toilet.

Oh, almost forgot....
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif


I definitly not endorse that method. Especially when text is the only way to communicate. You might get the above result, but more likely all you get is a broken person who never will go into sports anymore, or music, or writing on the forum or whatever activity it concerns.


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Owen
post Sep 15 2007, 05:27 PM
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Its the carrot or the stick really. Both are just as effective methods of getting people to improve, however, on the internet we dont exactly have many incentives for people to improve. I post lyrics and ideas on UG sometimes just to get them bashed to hell, you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 15 2007, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Sep 15 2007, 09:43 AM) *
I definitly not endorse that method. Especially when text is the only way to communicate. You might get the above result, but more likely all you get is a broken person who never will go into sports anymore, or music, or writing on the forum or whatever activity it concerns.


+1 with blindwillie.

The forum requirement is for constructive feedback. It is difficult enough to communicate effectively verbally, face to face with someone you know well. Rudeness and wholly negative feedback may be efficient in that it gets a result BUT it is not necessarily effective. Too often with negative feedback the result is obtained in order only to avoid future rebuke. There is little, if any, long term affective learning (ie that entails long term meaningful learning and behavioural change).

In a forum such as this communication is considerably harder, we neither know each other nor are able to pick up on any non-verbal clues regarding meaning and intent. It is really easy, and might I say potentially egotistical, to provide non-constructive negative feedback. In so doing however you cannot know what effect you have had on the person receiving it. You are more likely to get some affective learning by providing positive comments with an insight of possible areas to work on.

I'm certainly not advocating a 'everything is wonderful in the rose garden' form BUT the feedback should be constructive and appropriate to the player's level if known. There's little point in telling someone new to guitar 'you suk cos you can't shred 16ths at 220 bpm.'

The example that fkalich cites whilst interesting is open to debate. There is no evidence of any causal link between his feedback to his niece and her subsequently - some ten or so years later - making it to an ivy league.

A different example, I was taught to swim at age 7 by my father - he threw me into the deep end of a swimming pool and left me to get out by myself. He did it for lots of reasons, he was a bully, he was drunk at the time (again) and he was bored by my paddling in the shallows. I came out of pool and then he beat me up for crying. There you go negative feedback at its worst. Quick, efficient way of learning but not effective - I now hate swimming and avoid it all cost. I've little doubt that some here will say 'hey but now you can swim, you won't drown'. Yes but at what cost? Ends do not necessarily justify means

With regard to constructive feedback - my daughter, aged 7, swims like a fish . She learnt over some months with both my wife and I providing positive reinforcement and encouragement. She now loves swimming and pretty much goes everyday during the Summer. Because of my aversion I have to pretty much sit it out. Sad really.

If this makes me part of the 'sunshine blowing crowd' so be it. I'm here to try to help constructively.

Cheers,
Tony


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MickeM
post Sep 15 2007, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2007, 12:41 PM) *
Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

That's exactly what you said, an example. You can't practice that on all people, if they don't have it in them it can backfire and you end up with a broken and and weaker person who will think she's a "weenie, wimpy, wittle baby" and that's no way to go up against life.
This was your niece, I take it you know her pretty well. I'd be quite certain to guess you don't know anyone on this site well enough to know if name calling will spur them or destroy them. So which is safer, the kind and mellow appraoach and maybe miss out on spuring someone who'd rather take a beating or be a tyrant and break a dozen fellows.

QUOTE (Owen @ Sep 15 2007, 06:27 PM) *
Its the carrot or the stick really. Both are just as effective methods of getting people to improve, however, on the internet we dont exactly have many incentives for people to improve. I post lyrics and ideas on UG sometimes just to get them bashed to hell, you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.

No, these methods are not equally effective. you have to be very careful to whom you direct a stick or a carrot. Give out a carrot to a person who rather have a stick and you achive nothing, give out a stick to someone who'd rather have a carrot and you have done damage.



AND +1 on what tonymiro said.

This post has been edited by MickeM: Sep 15 2007, 10:54 PM


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post Sep 15 2007, 08:25 PM
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post Sep 15 2007, 08:56 PM
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post Sep 15 2007, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Sep 15 2007, 12:06 PM) *
Give out a carrot to a person who rather have a stick and you achive nothing, give out a stick to someone who'd rather have a carrot and you have done damage.


very well said MickeM


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RobM
post Sep 16 2007, 02:06 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2007, 06:41 AM) *
first, I think Andrew should be thanked for what he does. Whether I agree with him entirely or not (who does agree with anyone entirely?) without him, things could deteriorate quickly. I very much appreciate what he does here, as I am sure Kris does. However, that being said....

I disagree entirely with the sunshine blowing crowd. Does not help anyone, just encourages mediocrity (at best). I figure I have to stay in line within bounds of the owner of the site, or I won't be here. But as far as others are concern...I don't agree with all that happy horse poopy way of expressing yourself.

Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

I am not saying that event made any difference, but I know she did not over achieve because everybody clapped for her every time she remembered to flush after she used the toilet.

Oh, almost forgot....
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif



Bing the father of three (2 boys and a girl) I have to say that is the worst way to motivate a kid. As an example I used to be the biggest jerk in the world, I was the typical sport parent who used to yell, scream and whatever, I used to use tactics like that to get my oldest kid to excell in sports and in school. Well, he made it and was recruted by some of the top schools in the country for football. He turned them all down flat because by the time he graduated school he was sick and tired of it (me). I blew it with him.

As soon as he could he moved out of the house blaming me, got into some trouble and should have been killed when he rolled his truck over going 70 on the highway and then got hit by a tractor trailer truck. You should see the truck it amazing that he walked away from that accident with only some scratches and bruises.

I had an event in my life a few years ago that really made me come out of the funk that I was in and since then I have been changing my ways. If someone knew me back then they would not know me now the way that I am and the way that I treat everyone around me.

My youngest two are also excelling in both school and sports and they are loving life ( the difference was that my oldest might have excelled he hated it, i pushed him into it instead of guiding him). My oldest is back on track now living back home, going to school and doing good again, but still to this day i can feel the seperation between us, it's getting better but it's still there. On the other hand me and my two youngest are as close as a parent and kids can be. The difference is me.

I'm also a coach in various sports, the kids I used to coach see me and try to walk away (most of them anyways) but the ones I coach now all see me, come up to me and say hi coach etc.. Use patience and positive reinforcement and always be honest without being abusive. It does work and goes alot further than abuse and negative reinforcement.


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Pavel
post Sep 16 2007, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2007, 12:41 PM) *
I disagree entirely with the sunshine blowing crowd. Does not help anyone, just encourages mediocrity (at best). I figure I have to stay in line within bounds of the owner of the site, or I won't be here. But as far as others are concern...I don't agree with all that happy horse poopy way of expressing yourself.


I know one thing - if people around me were telling me i was a guitar god after playing a C Major scale i would have never learned to play at all. I keep watching world shredders just to get a feeling of how bad i am, and that's what helps me to keep practicing. I have a goal and i'll be there but i appreciate bad comments more than good ones.

If somebody tells me - "you play sloppy here, and you missed that tap there" and i know he is right, it's better than telling: "Oh man, you are amazing!" and i know i missed 10 notes in the certain lick/solo/whatever.

Btw. this is a very interesting discussion. Let's hear more opinions.


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FretDancer69
post Sep 16 2007, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Sep 15 2007, 07:29 PM) *
If somebody tells me - "you play sloppy here, and you missed that tap there" and i know he is right, it's better than telling: "Oh man, you are amazing!" and i know i missed 10 notes in the certain lick/solo/whatever.


well, the people that usually say "Oh Man, you are amazing!" is because they dont play guitar at all, or are below your level, so therefore they cant point out your flaws/mistakes. That means you wont get constructive critiscm from them like you would from a more advanced player.

This post has been edited by FretDancer69: Sep 16 2007, 02:45 AM


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Ryan
post Sep 16 2007, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Sep 15 2007, 08:29 PM) *
I know one thing - if people around me were telling me i was a guitar god after playing a C Major scale i would have never learned to play at all. I keep watching world shredders just to get a feeling of how bad i am, and that's what helps me to keep practicing. I have a goal and i'll be there but i appreciate bad comments more than good ones.

If somebody tells me - "you play sloppy here, and you missed that tap there" and i know he is right, it's better than telling: "Oh man, you are amazing!" and i know i missed 10 notes in the certain lick/solo/whatever.

Btw. this is a very interesting discussion. Let's hear more opinions.

Ill just say this. People want the truth, not any lies.

Truth = (Mean) Not nesscearly like YOU SUCK, but more of you this isnt good man. You need to work on this and that.

Lie = (Nice) MAN THAT WAS AMAZING.

We all have our bad points on guitar. We just sometimes need other people to tell us that so we can improve, other than being told it was good and sticking to sloppy playing and such!!


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FretDancer69
post Sep 16 2007, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (Ryan @ Sep 15 2007, 07:54 PM) *
Ill just say this. People want the truth, not any lies.

Truth = (Mean) Not nesscearly like YOU SUCK, but more of you this isnt good man. You need to work on this and that.

Lie = (Nice) MAN THAT WAS AMAZING.

We all have our bad points on guitar. We just sometimes need other people to tell us that so we can improve, other than being told it was good and sticking to sloppy playing and such!!



well, if you're told that you're good, but stick with the sloppy playing, you're making a foul yourself. Even if people tell you its good, you should know mistakes and still practice.


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Ryan
post Sep 16 2007, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Sep 15 2007, 09:05 PM) *
well, if you're told that you're good, but stick with the sloppy playing, you're making a foul yourself. Even if people tell you its good, you should know mistakes and still practice.

Some people are like that dude.I just saw this dude that posted a video for the Steve Vai comp. And well, hes like IM a shredder. IM really good, but this video isnt my best. I can do way better. So i check it out. And wow. Faklichs cat can do better. I gave him a chance though. And checked out all his music. And well he really belives hes really good. But hes one of the sloppiest players I have ever seen!!


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