Key Help!
 Oct 11 2007, 09:26 PM Post #1 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 i posted on another instructors thread looking for u and also nothing to do with the topic does that make me a bad person or too egar? lol im sry here is the question againok i have played tabs for 2 years and was starved for the theory you are dishing out i am enjoying it all and i thank you. but for the past 2 nights at work i have racked my brain on this.does the key of a piece equal the root of the main scale used in the piece ?i know this may not be the topic for this thread if so im sry but my brain now hurts i was ready to start my minor pentatonic scale practice when i noticed that if i use say a scale of B major (B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,2212221 the root is B. the key would have 5 sharps in it using the circle of fifths i can see A# is 7th or the last sharp 1 dagree up is B. KEY OF B EQUALS the B scale meaning that the scale of B major is the heart of our piecehere is the confusionsay i now use the same B scale only in minor pentatonic. (B,D,E,F#,A, 32232now this key according to what i have learned should only have 1 sharp F# 1 dagree up is G !!!!!WHAT key of G? shouldn't in still be KEY OF B I used a B scale?how do i know that im supposed to use a B minor pentatonic scale for the most part if the key is G? back to my question shouldnt the key equal my root note B?please put my mind at ease thanks WING. This post has been edited by OneWingdAngel: Oct 11 2007, 09:27 PM
 Oct 12 2007, 08:51 PM Post #2 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 Hi there,The first thing to realize is that scales and keys are different, but 99% of the time they are pretty much the same thing in that the root notes should coincide, as they did in your major scale example.Keys as a concept are heavily Dependant upon the major scale (which is really the basis for most western music even if different scales are in use). When working with the circle of 5ths and key signatures, you need to do it from the perspective of a major scale or you will run into the problems you saw. In fact, while you can have a key of B Major, you can't have a key of B Pentatonic Major. Since Pentatonic Major is a subset of Major, we can just use the Major key signature instead.So the simple rule is that the root note of a scale does equal the key, and this works fine until you start studying modes where things get a little more complicated.Hope this answers your question, if you have any more please ask! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab
 Oct 12 2007, 11:40 PM Post #3 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 so we would also group the minor scale with the minor pentatonic scale as it would be a subset right?i will try and work that out. the major is infact a subset so we show this with the key of G major and let that cover both . in other words no need for such thing as a key of G major pentatonic Back to the minor scale . maybe i just need to read more ahead in your lessons but i will just ask.how do we know if the key in question be it A or G what ever is a minor or a major? or is the key of minor scale shown by being in the key of its relative major scaleso u could go from Bmajor to B major pentatonic then u could also use its relitive minor (which i dont know yet) and minor pentitonic all in the same key ?then i could use a major scale look at it put it down on paper. make a key. say its key of Buse the B major scale use circle of fifths on itsee its key of Bthen know that i can now use B major , B major pentatonicthis would also let me know i could switch to its relitive minor and minor pentatonic all in the same keyso i guess i am asking now do we write all key signatures directly to be used with the major scale then from that we find its relitves to see the minor ?or is there a key signature or rule that will tell us use key of B minor in stead of saying key of B major then finding the relitive?
 Oct 13 2007, 12:37 AM Post #4 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) so we would also group the minor scale with the minor pentatonic scale as it would be a subset right?Correct!QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) i will try and work that out. the major is infact a subset so we show this with the key of G major and let that cover both . in other words no need for such thing as a key of G major pentatonic Back to the minor scale . maybe i just need to read more ahead in your lessons but i will just ask.how do we know if the key in question be it A or G what ever is a minor or a major? or is the key of minor scale shown by being in the key of its relative major scaleA major scale and its relative minor share exactly the same key signature (because the 2 scales share the same notes). The only difference would be the root note. In your example, B for the Major, G# for the relative minor. Now the question becomes how to you figure out the root note from a piece of music - its mostly experience - you can tell if a piece sounds major or minor and that tells you, although it doesn't actually matter if you are just reading the music, its more important if you want to improvise over a piece. If there are chords, that will give you a clue as well. In your example, if the piece uses G#minor a lot, maybe as the first and last chords that is a big clue (but not conclusive) that it is the relatove minor.QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) so u could go from Bmajor to B major pentatonic then u could also use its relitive minor (which i dont know yet) and minor pentitonic all in the same key ?Correct! (G# Minor Pentatonic), but one small point, not the same key, the same Key signature. The Key signature is a notational device that gives you the sharps and flats, the key does have a notion of major and minor, so B Major and G# Minor are 2 keys that share the same key signature.QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) then i could use a major scale look at it put it down on paper. make a key. say its key of Buse the B major scale use circle of fifths on itsee its key of BCorrect!QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 12 2007, 06:40 PM) then know that i can now use B major , B major pentatonicthis would also let me know i could switch to its relitive minor and minor pentatonic all in the same keyso i guess i am asking now do we write all key signatures directly to be used with the major scale then from that we find its relitves to see the minor ?or is there a key signature or rule that will tell us use key of B minor in stead of saying key of B major then finding the relitive?The key signatures are identical, the keys are B minor and G# minor - the key signature does not differentiate, you have to figure it out on your own. -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab
 Oct 13 2007, 01:37 AM Post #5 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 so a key signature will narrow it down to 2 possibilites lets pick our exampleB major and G# minorthe key is the same for each by looking at it we have our 2 possibilitiesnow to see if the root is B or G# and that takes either a trained ear or by being able to use the note or cord patterns to tell the rootcorrect ?
 Oct 13 2007, 02:23 AM Post #6 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 Correct There is a larger reality at work here based on a thing called Modes (which you may have heard of) - the relative minor is really a type of mode, and there are 5 others all of which share the same key signature, but for now I suggest you concentrate on Major and Relative minor until you have that straight and then move onto my modes lessons. -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab
 Oct 13 2007, 06:53 PM Post #7 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 thank you! it was me using the circle of fifths in the wrong perspective that got me here now i have learned valued info on key and key signatures. so onward I will go through your theory and practice my scales.i think u might realize i think too much sometimes. this means i will probably be back at you with another question about another topic later maybe even the same topic. the more help u can give me the better. i find alot of passion in the guitar alone. im on GMC to find out how and more importantly what makes up that passion. i read you been at it 30 years WOW! I thank you for passing on your gift and look forward to more of your theoryThanks again WING This post has been edited by OneWingdAngel: Oct 13 2007, 06:54 PM
 Oct 13 2007, 08:06 PM Post #8 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 Any time - keep the questions coming - it keeps me on my toes -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab
 Oct 15 2007, 08:47 PM Post #9 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 well here is another question Andrew. i should have asked B4 but just forgot since we went right into detail on the last questionthis has to deal with OCTAVE.really i just need you to correct me if im wrong please i will follow with a question ok here goes.1 octave is equal to 8 tones (12 dagrees or semi tones respected sharps and flats) reason for prefix OCTthe 6 sting can play in 2 octaves.when looking at a 6 string guitar if an open string is played say E the 1 octave higer will be found on the 12th fretthis E is equal in tone and pitch but is twice the frequancy.so in a sense the guitar starts over again at the 12th fretwhen writen on the staff the first octave or first 12 frets will be ON the staff the second octave will be writen on ledger lines above the staff.so there correct me if im wrong please now my question.if the above is true on the first 12 frets you can find alot of identicle tones and with a high and low E string even more identicle tones. first since all these tones be it E or B or what ever are in the same octave are they completly equal in tone and pitch and frequancy? (like if i played open 5th string A then played second string 10th fret A are they the same?) and secondly if i were to write those same notes A 5th open and A 2nd 10th fret on a staff would they be located in the same place since they are in same octave?or maybe each string is its own octave? like low E string is botom and works up see my confusion please help thanks
 Oct 15 2007, 09:05 PM Post #10 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 wow im way off i found that tab with every note i count 4 octaveseach string goes up in pitch so we yes do have multiple equal tonesbut the example i gave that even i thought was ridiculous is wrong seems since the strings are different pitch we can go up and down both ways.i mean if i want to play up an octave say first e string i go to fret 12 but using the other strings i can duplicate that tone on lower frets making the guitar more versitile and efficent so i guess i answered my own question if you can add some insight on my discovery i would be greatful thanks This post has been edited by OneWingdAngel: Oct 15 2007, 09:07 PM
 Oct 15 2007, 09:12 PM Post #11 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) well here is another question Andrew. i should have asked B4 but just forgot since we went right into detail on the last questionthis has to deal with OCTAVE.really i just need you to correct me if im wrong please i will follow with a question ok here goes.1 octave is equal to 8 tones (12 dagrees or semi tones respected sharps and flats) reason for prefix OCTthe 6 sting can play in 2 octaves.when looking at a 6 string guitar if an open string is played say E the 1 octave higer will be found on the 12th fretthis E is equal in tone and pitch but is twice the frequancy.so in a sense the guitar starts over again at the 12th fretAll correct!QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) when writen on the staff the first octave or first 12 frets will be ON the staff the second octave will be writen on ledger lines above the staff.Not necessarily - whether or not you use ledger lines isn't governed by what octave you use, its purely down to the pitch of the note. If it is higher than the stave or lower, you just add ledger lines. Where in the scale this occurs will be different in different scales, and has nothing to do with octaves.so there correct me if im wrong please now my question.QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) if the above is true on the first 12 frets you can find alot of identicle tones and with a high and low E string even more identicle tones. first since all these tones be it E or B or what ever are in the same octave are they completly equal in tone and pitch and frequancy? (like if i played open 5th string A then played second string 10th fret A are they the same?)No, in the example you give there is a 2 octave difference, but if you played an open 5th string and 6th string on the 5th fret, they would be an identical frequency. However, playing the same note in different places on the fret board will give you a slightly different sound in terms of tone rather than frequency and you can use this to good effect depending on they type of sound you are looking for.QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 03:47 PM) and secondly if i were to write those same notes A 5th open and A 2nd 10th fret on a staff would they be located in the same place since they are in same octave?or maybe each string is its own octave? like low E string is botom and works up see my confusion please help thanksAs per above, in your example, no they are different notes, in my example they would be written identically on the stave.The octave isn;t related to strings particularly, its purely a function of frequency and steps within the scale. As you step up a string, at some point, you can get the same notes on the next higher string so you use that for a while, then the next one etc. If you do this correctly you can see that the notes keep rising, and everytime you get to the 8th note of the scale you are in a new octave, it is not related to the strings themselves, rather the notes you play on those strings.QUOTE (OneWingdAngel @ Oct 15 2007, 04:05 PM) wow im way off i found that tab with every note i count 4 octaveseach string goes up in pitch so we yes do have multiple equal tonesbut the example i gave that even i thought was ridiculous is wrong seems since the strings are different pitch we can go up and down both ways.i mean if i want to play up an octave say first e string i go to fret 12 but using the other strings i can duplicate that tone on lower frets making the guitar more versitile and efficent so i guess i answered my own question if you can add some insight on my discovery i would be greatful thanksLooks like you figured it out for yourself, yes that is correct! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab
 Oct 17 2007, 11:46 PM Post #12 GMC:er Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 11-October 07 Member No.: 3.026 thanks for more of your time Andrew. i see that the begining of tones being double starts at 5th fret cept the b string i think it was, thats at 4th fret. so A can be played on bottom E string 5th fret aswell as open A string. this applys to my question as the 12th fret (1 octave up) duplicates at 12 - 5 the 7th fret so subtracting 5 from the fret cept the b string which is 4 gives u the equal tone on the string above YAY! this theory stuff is the best part of my day. I come home from work and learn seems like school once again. However i have never liked school sooo much hahahahaha WAY TO GO ANDREW ! give your self a pat on the back. im sure more then 1 person wants you to.
 Oct 18 2007, 01:26 AM Post #13 Moderation Policy Director Group: GMC Instructor Posts: 10.459 Joined: 6-February 07 From: CT, USA Member No.: 1.167 Glad I helped! -------------------- Check out my Instructor profile Live long and prosper ...My Stuff:Electric Guitars : Ibanez Jem7v, Line6 Variax 700, Fender Plus Strat with 57/62 Pickups, Line6 Variax 705 BassAcoustic Guitars : Taylor 816ce, Martin D-15, Line6 Variax Acoustic 300 NylonEffects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBloodAmps : Epiphone Valve Jnr & Head, Cockburn A.C.1, Cockburn A.C.2, Blackstar Club 50 Head & 4x12 Cab

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