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> Rap Isn't Music And Kurt Cobain Can't Play Guitar., Please convince me!
Kristofer Dahl
post Nov 6 2007, 04:18 AM
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Continued from "Overrated Guitarist" topic.
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Here is mine: - I can't stand opera music. The exagerated pronounciation of the lyrics and vibrato makes me feel ill!

However - I realise I am probably the problem, so please convince I am wrong (this is the part where I am making sure I am not hurting anyone's feelings) - and recommend me an album! laugh.gif

Kris


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Animosity
post Nov 6 2007, 04:21 AM
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Hmmm, maybe off topic but I think it needs to be said. biggrin.gif

As I read the former topic I was thinking this:

Isn't it wrong of us to say that so and so is overrated? With the exception of a few, the actual guitarist did not come out and say: "I am the greatest." Isn't it society that creates these over confident persona's we "see" in guitarists? I don't recall Kurt Cobain ever coming out and saying anything about him being a great guitarist. He just wanted to express himself to people, which he did very, VERY effectively. So, in turn, isn't he a success in the musical world? Same goes for people like Slash, Buckethead, etc...

As long as a guitarist doesn't come out and say "I'm awesome," it is wrong for us to judge what he/she is thinking. We cannot assume that this guitarist thinks that they are amazing, or that guitarist is saying they are better than everyone else by playing that solo. It's all, excuse my language, [bullpoop]. We push these people into positions that they do not necessarily want to be in, and with some it takes its toll. Look at Cobain..

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't dislike certain guitarists because they are doing what they love. Society is creating all of this hype, not the guitarist(with the exception of a few). So don't hate the player, hate the society that worships the player. After all, most of them are just doing what they love and aren't trying to "be better" than anyone else.

Just my two cents. wink.gif

Language NOT excused, and edited - Andrew

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Nov 6 2007, 04:23 AM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 6 2007, 04:21 AM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 5 2007, 10:18 PM) *
Continued from "Overrated Guitarist" topic.
---------------------------------

Here is mine: - I can't stand opera music. The exagerated pronounciation of the lyrics and vibrato makes me feel ill!

However - I realise I am probably the problem, so please convince I am wrong (this the part where I am making sure I am not hurting anyone's feelings) - and recommend me an album! laugh.gif

Kris


I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Nov 6 2007, 04:23 AM


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lefty01
post Nov 6 2007, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 10:21 PM) *
I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif

I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif

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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 6 2007, 04:40 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 10:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


Ok, don't get me wrong, I have no love for rap myself, but in rap, the emphasis is on the rhythm and content of the lyrics, not the musical content ... and yes, some of the best rappers have something to say here as they have been through a creative process themselves, and I can appreciate that even though I don't enjoy the product.


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fkalich
post Nov 6 2007, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 09:21 PM) *
I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif


This is my very favorite Raggae song, enjoy.

http://www.all4humor.com/videos/funny-vide...-white-man.html
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post Nov 6 2007, 04:45 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 09:40 PM) *
Ok, don't get me wrong, I have no love for rap myself, but in rap, the emphasis is on the rhythm and content of the lyrics, not the musical content ... and yes, some of the best rappers have something to say here as they have been through a creative process themselves, and I can appreciate that even though I don't enjoy the product.

I'm kind of on the same page here. I think nearly all rap would be just as effective for expression without any "musical" accompaniment. On the other hand, I can hardly say the same for bands like Pink Floyd.
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 6 2007, 04:45 AM
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Also opera covers an awful lot of ground - from Montiverdi way up to modern stuff like Thomas Ades. Some I really enjoy whilst some I find too much and even strident: I can quite happily listen to Rusalka, Carmen, Turn of the Screw, Child in our Time, Power Her Face etc but the Ring Cycle just doesn't do it for me. I still listen to it now and then to try to see what I'm missing. As I listen to more I'm building up a better and wider appreciation of the art form - still not enough to enjoy the Ring though but time will tell unsure.gif .

To some extent I find opera can depend on the singer as well. I can listen to someone like Dawn Upshaw or Anne Sophie von Otter or Renne Fleming but some others leave me cold. That though is my personal taste.

It's the same with Rap - some I really enjoy (and I've said this before on a different thread) and really admire the musicianship and the production quality and skills. Same is true of most of the guitar players named in the other thread - I think most/maybe all have recorded something of merit at some point, whether technically or musically or both.

Reggae - helps if you're in a club Andrew and the bass (and sub bass) is really hitting you in the chest cool.gif . Otherwise, and I'm sure others will say the same, Bob Marley is always a good argument for reggae though I'd also add in Lee Perry and the Ark Studios. Without reggae it's quite possible that a lot of modern recording techniques - particularly where it involves sampling and/or heavy echo- just wouldn't be the same wink.gif .

For me the challenge in my wanting to be a musician is listening to a musical form/musician I'm not used to or don't personally like and trying to understand why others do like it and what may be admirable about it. That, for me, takes a lot more effort then just writing someone/thing off. I'm a long way off that goal but I carry on. (Latest one I'm struggling with is my wife's new fav - the Robert Plant/Alison Krauss collab blink.gif . She really likes it so it must have redeeming features to it - errr somewhere smile.gif ).

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Fsgdjv
post Nov 6 2007, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 04:37 AM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif

Finally someone saying something else than just "rap isn't music, I'm right, you're wrong"! So basically, here's what I have to say..

First of all, rapping is their instrument, and it's not really talking, it's about as much talking as growling is screaming, in some ways it's talking (just like growling has some similarities with screaming) but there's more to it than just a guy talking. The rapper still has to take tones etc, but it's not as much as in "normal" songs, and it's nowhere near symphonic, but it's still music. Music has more things to it than just melody, rythm, pauses, etc. I mean come on, if there are musical pieces that are just silence, then rap would definetly qualify as music. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2276621.stm)

Some good rap songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE83vVfKoa0 - Promoe - A Likkle Supm Supm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIL6j0gZab4 - Looptroop - Last Song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy

(oh, and btw, I barely listen to rap at all, I just respect the genre tongue.gif )


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shredmandan
post Nov 6 2007, 05:11 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 11:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif



This is the way i look at rap aswell wink.gif But i guess you do have to consider it music even if you dont like it.I guess music can be anything that makes a sound like if you just stomp your foot on the ground several times that could be considered music cause your making a sound or maybe even these people that can burp the alphabet,that could be considered music cause there making different pitch's tongue.gif


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FretDancer69
post Nov 6 2007, 05:17 AM
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First of all. Id like to apologize for the mess caused by the topic Overrated Guitarists. I knew there would be some discussions, but i didnt think it was going to get out of control. Again, i apologize, Kris, and the moderating team.

Also, im sure i DID NOT bashed Cobain, how could i bash the person who invented and wrote the songs i used to play over and over when i was a beginner and made me so proud of myself? and not only that, but motivated me to keep practicing and reach my current level?.



QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 09:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


im with you man!!! I totally agree with you. What about US ? who spend hours and hours, years and years playing our instrument. And other people just grab a beat and talk stuff with it and call it music. I know im generalizing alot here, but thats what i think.




QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 5 2007, 10:01 PM) *
I mean come on, if there are musical pieces that are just silence, then rap would definetly qualify as music.


i highly doubt that. Imo, Music is the combination of silence,melody and rythm. If its just silence, then i doubt its music.

QUOTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy


lol laugh.gif , thats a nice title for a song. laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif

This post has been edited by FretDancer69: Nov 6 2007, 05:20 AM


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post Nov 6 2007, 05:20 AM
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=JUPz3YWXIbI - Nirvana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C2b8XWJnfE - Run DMC
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-sbqIyeed4g - Beastie Boys

If this is bad music then I guess all music is bad music! biggrin.gif


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post Nov 6 2007, 05:20 AM
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QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Nov 6 2007, 05:17 AM) *
[i][color=#CC0000]
i highly doubt that. Imo, Music is the combination of [b]silence
,melody and rythm. If its just silence, then i doubt its music.

dude, check my link after, it's the first thing that popped up after googling it, and I'm sure I've read somewhere else about that stuff.


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post Nov 6 2007, 05:25 AM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 5 2007, 10:01 PM) *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy

I'm from Minneapolis as Atmosphere is and they are huge here. Just about everyone in the university here has Atmosphere on their "iPods".
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 6 2007, 05:29 AM
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One of the more interesting arguments in modern 20th C classical music is about the relative merits of John Cage's 4' 33'. A performance of it is here.

Cards on the table - I love John Cage and the debate about 4 33 is more then what the announcer on the video linked here says wink.gif .

Cheers,
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post Nov 6 2007, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 05:25 AM) *
I'm from Minneapolis as Atmosphere is and they are huge here. Just about everyone in the university here has Atmosphere on their "iPods".

Damn, I envy you, Atmosphere are so awesome, it's basically the only hiphop group I ever listen to when I'm not in some special rap mood (wich happens once every third year rolleyes.gif ), damn, I'd love to be somewhere where thay are huge like that.


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post Nov 6 2007, 05:41 AM
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Well, im open to alot of different kinds of music (Folk, Rock, Blues, Classical, Opera, Metal, Bluegrass, Cultural Music)

But i have to disagree that the top 5% of any genre is good, because the fundamentals of some music such as rap, i just plain find boring an uninteresting, same goes with Indie, Punk (Newer), Reggae, and some others, ive listened to alot from each genre, and the basics of them, i just....well at times, Hate. Like Reggae, Reggae has that happy go lucky feel to it, and i just dont like it.

alot of people usually say "how can you not like reggae 'cause it sounds happy? dont you like to be happy?"

Now this sounds weird, but i cant listen to "Happy" Music, i believe there is a difference between "Happy" music and music that makes you happy.

Although i dont like Indie, Newer Punk, Rap, Or Reggae, i will never be so ignorant as to say its not music.


And to the first poster, good point about the overrated thing and society, but i think of overrated as a person thinking "well this person is getting all this credit, and i dont see why they should."

I view Overrated simply as another person's oppinion, no different than me saying Iron Maiden is the best musical act in the world, just an oppinion.

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post Nov 6 2007, 05:53 AM
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Here in San Francisco, Rap is probably the only thing bigger than hipster emo.

I don't like some of it myself, but I do think rap should be considered music in its own right. Its just easier to produce. Like all things, there is good rap and there is bad rap, and unfortunately you're all probably only exposed to bad rap (thank MTV for that). But don't underestimate it, if you think its easy to "bust a flow" of words, then go and try it. Its not as easy as we think it is.

Theres good hip hop out there. Hip hop where they actually use instruments I.E. The Roots. Hip hop that focuses on melodies rather than rhymes ala Outkast. Imagine, theres a whole underground community of hip hop enthusiests talking about how top-of-the-charts garbage rap is overrated, just like we're doing with rock bands.


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post Nov 6 2007, 05:57 AM
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Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.
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post Nov 6 2007, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 5 2007, 08:57 PM) *
Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.


Amen


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