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> Rap Isn't Music And Kurt Cobain Can't Play Guitar., Please convince me!
VinceG
post Nov 6 2007, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 08:37 AM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


Music is music. It helps express one's opinion, heart, and soul. Music doesn't need an instrument. If you think your a musician just by picking up a guitar then this is where we go on our separate ways. Instruments enhance music. Music is your soul, your feelings-- not what you have in your hands. Hip-Hop artist may not have the instruments that we have but they are still expressing there passion through words. Your opinions are deceived by your view of rap music as the once you hear in music channels or radio. Hear the true essence of hip hop because a lot of hip hop artist that I personally listen to speaks louder than the instrument presented in the palm of your hands.

Ask yourself. does music really comes down to what instrument you play?


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Arrival
post Nov 6 2007, 06:20 AM
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QUOTE (VinceG @ Nov 5 2007, 11:03 PM) *
Music is music. It helps express one's opinion, heart, and soul. Music doesn't need an instrument. If you think your a musician just by picking up a guitar then this is where we go on our separate ways. Instruments enhance music. Music is your soul, your feelings-- not what you have in your hands. Hip-Hop artist may not have the instruments that we have but they are still expressing there passion through words. Your opinions are deceived by your view of rap music as the once you hear in music channels or radio. Hear the true essence of hip hop because a lot of hip hop artist that I personally listen to speaks louder than the instrument presented in the palm of your hands.

Ask yourself. does music really comes down to what instrument you play?


Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?
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lefty01
post Nov 6 2007, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 12:20 AM) *
Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. That was THE point I was trying to make. smile.gif
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Lester
post Nov 6 2007, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available.
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself.


I would like to comment here,
I must agree with everyone who says rap is easier to learn then guitar BUT it is definitly music AND a craft.
Maybe this sounds strange but i write raps myself and used to make beats myself, altough i'm definitly more into guitar playing but one of the things that I notice is that I do improve with the time in making raps so it;s definitly a craft in my opinion.
The reason why I rap is that I want to preach the gospel to a lot of people and rap is a tool to do so without having spend years of practice first. (I am not a hardcore rapper).
Maybe too many people speak bad about rap without REALLY listening to rap first. and then I don't talk about 50 cent and Snoop Dogg or whatever, I don't really see them as rappers. not as it's supposed to be in my opinion.

One of the few things I learned about rap and beats:
First, when you listen to a beat with good earplugs you will notice that there are a lot of sounds and melodylines in the beat that you will hardly hear, they are quiet on the background and they gove the beat its good sound that is one thing that makes it a craft.
Second, when you rap you have to make sure of a few things. You will have to be various with the sentence lenght and the tone of your voice to make sure that the song wont get dull after hearing 30 secconds of the song. and you have to make sure to fit in different words to say the same thing but they still have to sound good, thats all about keeping the song alive and not dull.

And all the cursing should be banned from rapsongs, but that is my opinion, everybody has got his own taste but i like rappers who REALLY have something to say...NOT 50 cent, nor Snoop Dogg, nor eminem, nor 2pac who all rap about themselves, glorifying themselves. which does not mean that they cant rap ordont have a good technique or what so ever...but rather listen to some real rap with a message. I myself like McProphet a lot but that is dutch rap so i wont reccomend it to you guys... biggrin.gif

I think a rapper has a better sound with a band behind him instead of a cd, but rapping is still a craft.


QUOTE
Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.


I fully agree with The Uncreator here.



Thank you for reading my book about rapping tongue.gif


Regards,
Lester
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Nov 6 2007, 06:23 AM
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Bare in mind Gmcers its agruments like these that seperate us from UG.


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Spiderusalem
post Nov 6 2007, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 09:20 PM) *
Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?



Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take Kanye West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.
I invite any of you to contend otherwise.

This post has been edited by Spiderusalem: Nov 6 2007, 06:41 AM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Nov 6 2007, 06:30 AM
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Great to see some polite argumentation going! biggrin.gif


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lefty01
post Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 12:29 AM) *
Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take Kanye West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.

I guess, I'm saying that so much of rap is created in the studio, using PRO-TOOLS. I know that rap is not the only form of "music" that uses this, but my respect is for those who can TRULY play an instrument. Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif
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Resurrection
post Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM
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A few comments on this and the "overrated guitarist" thread. < zips flameproof suit and slips into kevlar vest ph34r.gif >

Rap is a form of music, although a fairly extreme form where rhythm and meter are given much more precedence than melody, harmony and the other possible components of "music". To my mind, rap is much closer to an art form such as poetry, where emotion is conveyed by the choice of words and their timing and emphasis.

Cobain could play guitar, but his abilities on the instrument were far overshadowed by the effect of his looks and persona, and the songs/lyrics that Nirvana produced. He was very much a product of his generation and his tragic death has elevated him to an icon of that period, much more than a musician.

When you're classifying a guitarist as "overrated", what you're actually saying is "this guitarist seems to be very popular or gets a lot of respect as a musician and I don't understand why, because his/her music doesn't do anything for me". All it means is that you don't understand why lots of other people seem to think differently from you. I don't know about anyone else, but I can think of quite a few examples (both musical and non-musical) where the rest of world seems to act in ways that seem strange to me!

On the question of whether musicians who don't play "proper instruments" or rely a lot on on technology produce valid "music" or not, here's another way to think about it. If an architect designs an amazing house on a computer, then gets a builder to build that house for him, is that house any less wonderful to someone looking at it than a house where a single person did the design, hand-crafted all the materials and carried out all the construction? Probably not. As musicians, some of us are like the first house builder and some of us are like the second house builder, depending on which way of creating music gives us more personal satisfaction.

For the record, I don't understand how people like freeform jazz, many forms of country music, or reggae (+1 Uncreator). Does that make me weird? laugh.gif


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Fsgdjv
post Nov 6 2007, 06:44 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM) *
I guess, I'm saying that so much of rap is created in the studio, using PRO-TOOLS. I know that rap is not the only form of "music" that uses this, but my respect is for those who can TRULY play an instrument. Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif

The technique of playing an instrument, is not what makes the music, it's the thought put in. I could do excercises on guitar 10 hours/day for 30 years without being a musician, it's what you create, whatever you use. Like I think VinceG said, the instrument is just a tool, it's not the actual music.


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Spiderusalem
post Nov 6 2007, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 09:42 PM) *
Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif


Speaking of which....... http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwqN-xj9Xs


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Kristofer Dahl
post Nov 6 2007, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 6 2007, 06:44 AM) *
The technique of playing an instrument, is not what makes the music, it's the thought put in. I could do excercises on guitar 10 hours/day for 30 years without being a musician, it's what you create, whatever you use. Like I think VinceG said, the instrument is just a tool, it's not the actual music.


This summarizes my personal opinion well! smile.gif

Now - if you know how to play instrument it facilitates getting the "thought" out!


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Arrival
post Nov 6 2007, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 5 2007, 11:29 PM) *
Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take Kanye West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.
I invite any of you to contend otherwise.


Yes, but if you took away the saved file on his computer, could he remember that exact beat and replicate it?

Creating beats is more like writing a book, you can erase, move, do whatever you want to it, come back later and it's still there. However, could he ever play it live?

If you have respect for someone's innate and natural human ability to type and click on a computer for hours (sound familiar? laugh.gif ) then that is totally fine. I have none for it.

Edit: Also, music is about boundaries. Our favorite musicians are just that because either they have broken boundaries or moved passed boundaries we didn't even know existed. A computerized beat eliminates all boundaries. With this technique, anyone can do absolutely anything they want.

This post has been edited by Arrival: Nov 6 2007, 07:11 AM
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 6 2007, 07:14 AM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 5 2007, 11:49 PM) *
This summarizes my personal opinion well! smile.gif

Now - if you know how to play instrument it facilitates getting the "thought" out!


And the studio, Pro Tools/Cubase/Reaper, drum machines, samplers and so on are 'instruments' in their own right. Think about the great producers and recording engineers from the past. Where would the Beatles be if not for George Martin? Think about Abbey Road, Brittania Row, EMI, the BBC's Maida Vale. Andy Jackson's Pink Floyd's sound engineer. Quincy Jones' influence on Michael Jackson through 'Thriller' and beyond. Think about Butch Vig and Seattle. I could go on for a long while here but it would get boring.

There are thousands of us who have production facilities at home or work who, using Spiderusalem's great example, have yet to produce something as inspired or as well worked through as a Kanye West track.

At the end of the day, to me drum machines, sequencing, samplers, recording techniques et al are just a more modern part of the arsenal available to us as musicians - along with electric guitars and more traditional acoustic instruments. What counts to me is the talent, creativity and skills to be able to use them well and appropriately.

BTW - as I recall Charlie Christian was heavily criticised for putting a microphone and subsequently a pickup on his guitar nearly a century ago. Critics then bemoaned how he was not using a traditional instrument that relied on skill.

Cheers,
Tony


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Spiderusalem
post Nov 6 2007, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 10:07 PM) *
Yes, but if you took away the saved file on his computer, could he remember that exact beat and replicate it?

Creating beats is more like writing a book, you can erase, move, do whatever you want to it, come back later and it's still there. However, could he ever play it live?

If you have respect for someone's innate and natural human ability to type and click on a computer for hours (sound familiar? laugh.gif ) then that is totally fine. I have none for it.


well then you just said it. Hip hop producing is more akin to writing a book, which If we are going by that comparison, is a difficult task just like any other you'd have to train yourself in to get good at.

But I do respect your decision not to like/enjoy it. I say tomato, you say potatoe. same difference


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PlayAllDay
post Nov 6 2007, 07:27 AM
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Music is a form of expression - and the forms chosen by the disassociated are reflecting their status (or lack thereof) in society. Rap began because it was CHEAP to produce because when you don't got no cash, you don't got no cash...and it's a rebellious artform so the emphasis was never going to be on spending time perfecting your instrumental capabilities, somewhat related to punk in that.
People make music because of who they are - and people like or don't like certain music because of who they are... music is there for us all in its infinite variety.
I never met a piece of music I couldn't like a bit simply by trying to understand the artist behind it.
People are way cool cool.gif


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Arrival
post Nov 6 2007, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 6 2007, 12:14 AM) *
And the studio, Pro Tools/Cubase/Reaper, drum machines, samplers and so on are 'instruments' in their own right. Think about the great producers and recording engineers from the past. Where would the Beatles be if not for George Martin? Think about Abbey Road, Brittania Row, EMI, the BBC's Maida Vale. Andy Jackson's Pink Floyd's sound engineer. Quincy Jones' influence on Michael Jackson through 'Thriller' and beyond. Think about Butch Vig and Seattle. I could go on for a long while here but it would get boring.

There are thousands of us who have production facilities at home or work who, using Spiderusalem's great example, have yet to produce something as inspired or as well worked through as a Kanye West track.

At the end of the day, to me drum machines, sequencing, samplers, recording techniques et al are just a more modern part of the arsenal available to us as musicians - along with electric guitars and more traditional acoustic instruments. What counts to me is the talent, creativity and skills to be able to use them well and appropriately.

BTW - as I recall Charlie Christian was heavily criticised for putting a microphone and subsequently a pickup on his guitar nearly a century ago. Critics then bemoaned how he was not using a traditional instrument that relied on skill.

Cheers,
Tony

I think we are all definitely at a stalemate here. I will end with this, unless I am provoked otherwise...

Pink Floyd made it a point to "not let the technology control their music." It was only a gift and a tool to enhance the music. It saddens me to see technology controlling music to the level it does today.

In the end, music is as indescribable and undefinable as life, love, and truth.
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Spiderusalem
post Nov 6 2007, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 10:30 PM) *
I think we are all definitely at a stalemate here. I will end with this, unless I am provoked otherwise...

Pink Floyd made it a point to "not let the technology control their music." It was only a gift and a tool to enhance the music. It saddens me to see technology controlling music to the level it does today.

In the end, music is as indescribable and undefinable as life, love, and truth.


I'll respect that


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Arrival
post Nov 6 2007, 07:41 AM
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QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 12:32 AM) *
I'll respect that

I'd say respect is one of my five favorite verbs.
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post Nov 6 2007, 07:51 AM
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I'm not really a fan of rap and hip-hop, but I do believe it has its merits. Do I hold a tremendous amount of respect for the musicianship of most rap or hip-hop artists? Nope......but sometimes it's fun to go to a hip-hop club, have a couple of drinks, listen to the beat, and watch the honeys shake their stuff tongue.gif
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