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> Why Not To Use Pirated Software, Some personal thoughts for debate
Owen
post Nov 14 2007, 02:32 AM
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First of all, Kudos to blindwillie, his post made a lot of sense. smile.gif

QUOTE (swingline @ Nov 13 2007, 02:08 PM) *
Your full of crap! You would care, its like in school you do your homework and everyone else copies it you feel screwed because your the only one who did it and everyone else got a free ride. If you bought a 1500 dollar guitar and every one else got it for free how would you feel. Its all the same say I buy Adobe Photoshop CS3 for upwards of 600 dollars, but you got it for free I'd be pissed and you would to if it was the other way around. So don't lie to me, yourself, or anyone else.


Coincidentally Apple did that with the iPhone, people bought it when it came out and then two weeks later dropped the price $200, big business is not against using questionable tactics as well.

In recent surveys piracy also appears not to have effected album sales either:

Interesting Guardian Article On Canadian Album Sales

Also in 2005 the UK albums chart recorded its highest ever sales in history, despite the rapid influx in people downloading music from the internet.

Of course this only applies to CD's - which are generally available at a cheap price anyway, I have no idea how piracy effects small software companies producing high cost and high budget products - however I'm willing to stick a limb out and say not positively.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to put forward the case for piracy here, but in general it doesnt seem to be effecting most industries at all, most people will buy the majority of products they use and I've not seen many of the more successful software companies harvesting a loss financially of recent.

In short I think the whole thing is a tad blown out of proportion but never the less it is illegal and if people want to find illegal things they dont have to look hard - a quick search on google will do it, as such I do not think it is appropriate to post such things up for discussion on GMC - people know how to find this stuff and GMC need not be associated with it.

I am not going to stop people pirating, people have their reasons and we're never going to change that by simply saying "Piracy is bad, stop now!" or being rude and hollering at them, legally Fsgdjv is in the wrong but who am I to tell him what and what not to do? He doesnt seem to be having a negative impact statistically so at the end of the day, why should we enforce something when he is most likely causing no harm.

We have all done immoral and wrong things, now I'm no Christian - I'm actually an agnostic, but there is a quote by the big J that makes perfect sense in this context;

Let ye who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Hope someone understands where I'm coming from here laugh.gif wink.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 14 2007, 02:34 AM
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And for the record, my edit was more about the big letters than the content - it would have got through unscathed otherwise but I took the opportunity to soften it slightly.


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post Nov 14 2007, 04:33 AM
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Apologies Andrew - my mistake.

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Animosity
post Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 12:52 PM) *
Why not? I can speed and run a red light on occacions stay off robbing people. So it works.

EDIT: And to develop it a bit more breaking the laws you're unhappy with is a revolutionary way of challanging the state. An excellent way of making society change and it has been used for all times. When people never protested and just adjusted themselves to all the current laws there would be a great risk for the individual.

Me driving 115 instead of 110 km/h on the highway is not a big revolution but in the end it may lead to politicians saying "Everyone drives too fast, cars are more sequre, there's an economical winning in people getting to their destination quicker" would in the end lead to speed limits being raised to 120 km/h

Me and others running a red light in the same crossing all the time could in the end lead to a round about being built.

We'll see where file sharing will lead to in the end but I'm quite convinced they will adjust the laws instead of busting millions of teenagers all around the world. There's simply too high a cost and too complicated a task to do. It will likely become allowed within reasonable time, say in 10-15 years.



Anarchy.
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radarlove1984
post Nov 14 2007, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (swingline @ Nov 13 2007, 06:08 AM) *
Your full of crap! You would care, its like in school you do your homework and everyone else copies it you feel screwed because your the only one who did it and everyone else got a free ride.
Funny you should say that. I'm a sophomore college student working on my BS degree in Physics. I've been a straight A student for almost 2 years now, and I have NO problems at all with letting people copy my work. For free. Sometimes I'll even show up 20 minutes early.

That's just my way of paying it forward. Some people copy the answers and turn everything in and others actually go home and figure everything out for themselves (after they copy the answers and turn everything in, of coarse!). Either way, it doesn't affect me because my work is finished.

Music file sharing is a big debate here in the US, especially on college campuses. The most prevalent idea is that we share music because of the bandwidth (campuses have T3 lines). That's completely untrue. We share and download music because - brace yourselves for the truth no one's brave enough to say - it's free.

It's as simple as that. Most of us are metaphorically living out of our suitcases, and when we graduate we'll be at least $40,000 dollars in debt. Claiming that we hurt the record industry because of file sharing is completely false because we could never BUY records to begin with. We're the customers the record company never had and never will have.

Shutting down file sharing websites wouldn't make us go back to buying CDs. It would make us listen to FM again.

And I've got bad news for musicians. Once you make a song, it's not yours anymore. It doesn't belong to you. Half of my life's story is set to the music of the 60's and 70's. My first date was set to the music of Journey. The first time I made love, Santana was playing in the background. After my first serious relationship ended, Air Supply was playing for a month!

The record companies don't own those moments. I do. You do. We all do.

Is sharing music morally wrong? Sorry, but I don't think any one of us is credible enough to answer that. Is it legal? That depends on your country. Does it mean we don't support the band? Of coarse not.

I want to address all the software programmers on the message board now. I don't mean for this to sound overly harsh, but it needs to be said.

Just because you got a college degree in computer science doesn't mean you're entitled to a high paying job. It doesn't mean you're entitled to any job. Computer programming is a very high risk business. You can make your first $10 million the first month out of school or you can barely make minimum wage and spend your days re-enacting the greatest hits of Office Space.

Your sense of entitlement is no more justified than any of us expecting to get record contracts because we practice the guitar 8 hours a day for 10 years. If you're a software programmer - or musician - then you should know the risks involved in the business.

Musicians have to worry about getting stiffed out of gig payments, roadies breaking or stealing your equipment, finding transportation, food, shelter... not getting your ass kicked by the audience... not getting screwed out of record deals... etc...

Programmers have to worry about optimizing source code, preventing software piracy, finding a decent job, starting up their own company, etc...

Both jobs are high risk and both should be done for the love of doing it. If you got in to either business to get rich fast, you should seriously reconsider the coarse your life is taking.

Now, to connect this all to my Physics homework tangent, I see file sharing the same way. People copying my lab reports aren't stealing them, they're just copying them. No one is physically taking the report away from me, and I'm not hurt in any way because of it.

The same holds true for people who could never buy CD's each month. The record company isn't loosing money off of them. They claim they are. They wrongly assume that if P2P file sharing stops, every broke college student in the country is going to magically come up with an extra $30 bucks a month to spend. I'd love to know how that could ever happen.

One more thing... I firmly believe in the principle of do unto others as you would like done to you. And I seriously hope that if one day I need to copy someone's lab report, install PowerPoint, or borrow a DVD someone rented from Netflix, that people will be decent enough to let me. Because all laws of intellectual property aside, doing basic things like that to help our fellow human beings is necessary to our sanity and our survival.

The philosophy of "I've Got Mine, Jack" is never helpful and always has a way of coming back to bite you in the ass at the worst possible time.


Now, does believing all this make me a bad person? And who are you to judge anyway?

- I welcome any thought out responses to this post. If anyone has conflicting ideas, let me know. I'm especially interested in hearing what the Ethics professor thinks of this. We seem to have taken the same general idea of Karma and run with it in completely different directions.


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I'm in no way anti-corporation or anti-establishment. Large corporations have probably done more good for the world than anyone or anything else in the history of all mankind.

As with all debates that have no right answer, there's a thousand shades of gray. My response was directed at a certain part of the gray area. I trust that you'll all be smart enough to understand the part I was addressing and not misquote me out of context.

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steve25
post Nov 14 2007, 05:14 AM
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Interesting discussion. I'm not going to take any sides here i'm just going to give you my input on what i think about both.

Yes piracy is illegal. Piracy of films, music, software etc. Now, here's what i know or at least this is how it was last time i checked. Buying films for example and then copying them for yourself is perfectly fine. You are allowed to do this just in case i dunno, it gets scratched or something you do have a backup. It becomes illegal when you start selling it. That is a ticket to prison my friends. If you are copying your software/music/film whatever and selling it even to a friend. If you get caught you can be locked away for it.

If you download it off the internet, that all depends if you paid any money at all for it. If you download music say off limewire or similar programs to that it is illegal however, programs like limewire aren't illegal. The actual program itself is not illegal because its purpose was file sharing, not illegal downloading. It's what you do with limewire that makes it illegal. I'm using this as an example here. Now you won't get as harsh a penalty as if you were selling it, but it's still illegal. But are they really going to go round every house and punish 90% of the people who own computers with an internet connection?No, they are targeting the ones who are doing much worse. Downloading illegal files for example. Making viruses, selling illegal picture and video content etc.

As for software, i think that will depend on how much you've got and how much the program is worth. Lets say you've not got a genuine copy of Windows i think that's a very common thing. If you're using illegal software in a business and particuarly when you're making money then that is very much illegal. For example, if you have illegal music production software and you're making albums and selling them while using it then that is much worse then just using it to practice with.

I have been given a copy of Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 2003 by my college to use on my course. I haven't paid a penny on it and it is a copy (but it's a copy of an original not a downloaded version). Actually you can download some of microsfts programs off their website as long as it's for education use only i beleive. Anyway back to what i was saying. I haven't paid a penny for it and for you programmers you'll probably be aware of Microsofts development environment. However i did have to sign a form saying that i would never use it for anything other then education purposes, especially not making money out of it. This makes it perfectly legal.

People wouldn't pirate so much though, if these software packages weren't so expensive. Software developers won't ever lose their jobs there are too many out there. There are still a big enough number of people out there who will quite happily buy legal software. But there are others that refuse to pay such a high price for software. Microsofts software is an example loads of people will copy it instead of buy it because while it may be high quality software, its still very expensive. But being one of the richest companies in the world, they're doing fine aren't they and they aren't about to go bust or anything. So yes they could get more money if people didn't do that. They live in proof that companies can still survive

This post has been edited by steve25: Nov 14 2007, 05:17 AM
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FretDancer69
post Nov 14 2007, 05:19 AM
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Really good post radarlove. I agree with you on many points you mentioned.


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bad_tel
post Nov 14 2007, 05:30 AM
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im all for it sving money why pay £££££ when its there for free
if its called stealing then some one better tell my tax man he has been stealing from me for years


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fkalich
post Nov 14 2007, 05:31 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 12:52 PM) *
Why not? I can speed and run a red light on occacions stay off robbing people. So it works.

EDIT: And to develop it a bit more breaking the laws you're unhappy with is a revolutionary way of challanging the state. An excellent way of making society change and it has been used for all times. When people never protested and just adjusted themselves to all the current laws there would be a great risk for the individual.

Me driving 115 instead of 110 km/h on the highway is not a big revolution but in the end it may lead to politicians saying "Everyone drives too fast, cars are more sequre, there's an economical winning in people getting to their destination quicker" would in the end lead to speed limits being raised to 120 km/h

Me and others running a red light in the same crossing all the time could in the end lead to a round about being built.

We'll see where file sharing will lead to in the end but I'm quite convinced they will adjust the laws instead of busting millions of teenagers all around the world. There's simply too high a cost and too complicated a task to do. It will likely become allowed within reasonable time, say in 10-15 years.



Good example of the flaws in the logic of people deciding whatever they want to decide. Here one guy decides what traffic laws matter. I don't think a lot of cops would agree with you, maybe they have a good reason?

Nobody is perfect, but come on, stealing is stealing. All this hand waving so people can feel justified and taking something that does not belong to them, because they can get away with it.

Just like those people looting television sets, robbing houses in New Orleans after the flood. Stealing software is what middle class do, the poor break into the stores. Same thing in my book. Same dishonesty. Just different opportunities presented to both economic classes, but still the same basic character. Take whatever you can take, whether it belongs to you or not, if you think you can get away with it.

edit: btw, pretty much the same philosophy of life of your average rodent. Hope that does not offend anyone, I actually respect rodents. But we are not rodents. And should not have rodent ethics I believe.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 14 2007, 05:34 AM
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shredmandan
post Nov 14 2007, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 13 2007, 01:52 PM) *
Why not? I can speed and run a red light on occacions stay off robbing people. So it works.

EDIT: And to develop it a bit more breaking the laws you're unhappy with is a revolutionary way of challanging the state. An excellent way of making society change and it has been used for all times. When people never protested and just adjusted themselves to all the current laws there would be a great risk for the individual.

Me driving 115 instead of 110 km/h on the highway is not a big revolution but in the end it may lead to politicians saying "Everyone drives too fast, cars are more sequre, there's an economical winning in people getting to their destination quicker" would in the end lead to speed limits being raised to 120 km/h

Me and others running a red light in the same crossing all the time could in the end lead to a round about being built.

We'll see where file sharing will lead to in the end but I'm quite convinced they will adjust the laws instead of busting millions of teenagers all around the world. There's simply too high a cost and too complicated a task to do. It will likely become allowed within reasonable time, say in 10-15 years.



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bad_tel
post Nov 14 2007, 05:49 AM
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1 question have none of you ever downloaded a song
well ok but i bet there is not 1 person who has not recorded a track of the radio on to a casset well thats illegal


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radarlove1984
post Nov 14 2007, 05:52 AM
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While I agree with that basic principle of breaking laws to protest, I don't agree with the example posted.

Intentionally breaking the law to provoke change is a great way to start a revolution, but that only works for things that (for lack of a better phrase) actually matter.

Non-violent protest only works when the world is watching and can apply pressure. Overthrowing an oppressive government or protesting genocide gets attention quickly.

Nobody (again, in the whole grand scheme of things) really cares about college kids downloading Metallica on Limewire.

While I agree that the laws will eventually change to reflect the times, I have no delusions about a "power to the people" revolution coming from it.
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Owen
post Nov 14 2007, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (bad_tel @ Nov 14 2007, 04:49 AM) *
1 question have none of you ever downloaded a song
well ok but i bet there is not 1 person who has not recorded a track of the radio on to a casset well thats illegal


The argument here isnt really about if anyone has done it or not - we've all probably participated in piracy at some point, intentionally or not.

It's more along the lines of whether its justified/immoral/wrong. cool.gif


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Fsgdjv
post Nov 14 2007, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM) *
Anarchy.

Demorcacy


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Animosity
post Nov 14 2007, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 13 2007, 11:22 PM) *
Demorcacy


Wrong.
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Hemlok
post Nov 14 2007, 06:44 AM
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QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 05:27 AM) *
Wrong.

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steve25
post Nov 14 2007, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE (Owen @ Nov 14 2007, 06:56 AM) *
The argument here isnt really about if anyone has done it or not - we've all probably participated in piracy at some point, intentionally or not.

It's more along the lines of whether its justified/immoral/wrong. cool.gif


I agree this isn't about what you've done. Heck i stole a pound out of my mums purse once when i was 7 years old so that i could go up the shop to buy sweeties! I never got caught, but i knew it was wrong and i didn't do it again!
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ActiveX
post Nov 14 2007, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (radarlove1984 @ Nov 13 2007, 08:04 PM) *
I want to address all the software programmers on the message board now. I don't mean for this to sound overly harsh, but it needs to be said.

Just because you got a college degree in computer science doesn't mean you're entitled to a high paying job. It doesn't mean you're entitled to any job. Computer programming is a very high risk business. You can make your first $10 million the first month out of school or you can barely make minimum wage and spend


I don't believe that I'm automatically entitled to a high-paying job, or anything else for that matter; but if I create a piece of software, and someone finds it useful and decides to USE it, then I expect to be paid what I'm asking, just like any other business. Pretty simple.
Some people build guitars, some people build furniture, I build software programs...why is it ok to steal my products, and not these others? No one here would argue over the rights or wrongs of someone walking into the guitar makers shop, trying out one of his guitars, deciding that he likes it, and then going back to steal it because he doesn't want to fork out the cash.
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MickeM
post Nov 14 2007, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 14 2007, 04:51 AM) *
Anarchy.

Well, we could all just stop questioning things and walk a straight line. See how that works out.


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MickeM
post Nov 14 2007, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 05:31 AM) *
Good example of the flaws in the logic of people deciding whatever they want to decide. Here one guy decides what traffic laws matter. I don't think a lot of cops would agree with you, maybe they have a good reason?

Nobody is perfect, but come on, stealing is stealing. All this hand waving so people can feel justified and taking something that does not belong to them, because they can get away with it.

Just like those people looting television sets, robbing houses in New Orleans after the flood. Stealing software is what middle class do, the poor break into the stores. Same thing in my book. Same dishonesty. Just different opportunities presented to both economic classes, but still the same basic character. Take whatever you can take, whether it belongs to you or not, if you think you can get away with it.

edit: btw, pretty much the same philosophy of life of your average rodent. Hope that does not offend anyone, I actually respect rodents. But we are not rodents. And should not have rodent ethics I believe.

I wasn't refering to any "reclaim" streets/the city or whatever action which main purpose seem to be to destroy things. And it's so neat how you managed to deminish both the middle class and the poor in one single sentence. Why not mention the rich? Avoiding taxes, elbowing their way up while others have to take the fall, record company bosses who cash in the big money. Do you think they are all honest? It's typical you forget to mention the rich who probably move the most dishonest money around and it's a typical mistake to think honesty is in their nature.

A little civil disobeyance is just healthy, both for society and the indivudal, healthy as in evolving. And if you're refering to animal society and having so many animals you should really know of survival of the fittest. If we would break the discussion down to what's in mans nature it's for certain not to follow the laws but to survive. Much like a rodent or a cockroach. And with a flooding situation like you refeer to there are other philosopical rules that apply - Pavlov - as the basic foundation to material and economical security gets swept away. People from outside will also see their chanse to fetch stuff as their needs tell them they need to improve their situation, wether it's to buy drugs or they need a TV.
None that apply to software stealing or how companies steer the music or movie insustry. Nor has it anything to do with running a red light or speeding. Especially speeding as in my example is something that most part of the population does at some time and the affect it has will in some cases be that the speed limit is increased. It happens here. Civil disobeyance since the runles dont apply to the reality leads to a change of rules.
Stealing a TV like you said will clearly not change the rules so that act will become legal. Seriously, to that extent I don't see your point... at all.

QUOTE (radarlove1984 @ Nov 14 2007, 05:52 AM) *
Nobody (again, in the whole grand scheme of things) really cares about college kids downloading Metallica on Limewire.

Lars does laugh.gif


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