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> Why Not To Use Pirated Software, Some personal thoughts for debate
radarlove1984
post Nov 14 2007, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE (ActiveX @ Nov 13 2007, 10:01 PM) *
I don't believe that I'm automatically entitled to a high-paying job, or anything else for that matter; but if I create a piece of software, and someone finds it useful and decides to USE it, then I expect to be paid what I'm asking, just like any other business. Pretty simple.
Some people build guitars, some people build furniture, I build software programs...why is it ok to steal my products, and not these others? No one here would argue over the rights or wrongs of someone walking into the guitar makers shop, trying out one of his guitars, deciding that he likes it, and then going back to steal it because he doesn't want to fork out the cash.


All I'm saying is that piracy comes with the territory. Ethics aside, your work is soooooo much more likely to be stolen if you develop software. It's just the business you've chosen. You're in a high risk field where a lot can go wrong. I tend to think of it as owning a gas station in a bad part of town. You should expect theft, because it's naive not to. Programming is just as risky as playing the stock market or becoming a venture capitalist. It's definitely not a stable 9-5 job.
---------------------------------
Before I continue, my second job is doing (X)HTML and CSS coding for startup websites. I've been burned by theft too, especially since ANYONE can view HTML code.
EDIT: description removed. Whilst it might be easy and legal rather not have GMC used to demonstrate how to do it. Cheers, Tony

And the worst part is that viewing the source code is perfectly legal.
---------------------------------
I knew all of this going into programming though. I expect to take a loss, but I still program because it beats working at McDonald's and the pay's about the same.

I can definitely understand why programmers are angry over software piracy, but I personally don't mind. I know it's a high risk job, I knew that going into it, I expect piracy, and I plan for it. Piracy is what it is. I've made peace with it.

-----

And sorry if I came across like a real ass by saying this. My brother's in the same situation you are in, and I've probably lost a good $2000 dollars in the last 6 months. Believe me, I can definitely sympathize with you and I know it's so much harder when you have a family to support. My heart goes out to you because I know you and many other people have gotten screwed over by piracy.

(and props to you if you can program in ActiveX. I know PHP, CSS, HTML, and some basic JavaScript nothing complicated like ActiveX)

This post has been edited by tonymiro: Nov 14 2007, 08:16 PM
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Vinicitur
post Nov 14 2007, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (bad_tel @ Nov 14 2007, 12:49 AM) *
1 question have none of you ever downloaded a song
well ok but i bet there is not 1 person who has not recorded a track of the radio on to a casset well thats illegal



Yes I have. But I always bought the CD if I liked it. I own 300+ CDs and they're all legal!
As for recording, that's debatable for one simple reason. When you buy your cassette or your CD you pay a hidden tax which goes to the record industry. At least that's what happens in Canada.

And for the record it's not illegal to download music in Canada. It's illegal to distribute it. That's how the law is written for the moment.

This post has been edited by Vinicitur: Nov 14 2007, 02:53 PM


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MickeM
post Nov 14 2007, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 14 2007, 08:22 AM) *
Anyone else got any theories?

Without reading further to find whether the answer is there cracked software has made it possile for the large mass of people to afford (since it comes at no cost obviously) tools that were only available to companies.
Someone with an interest in program development with C could get the tools needed for own program development and have contributed to high level of IT knowledge, sales of the book "C for Dummies" (or dl of the copy) and maybe him or herlelf have written some useful shareware, freeware or some mean viruses.
I've been so lucky I was making a school project in C for a company and when the project was over they let me have the copy they bought. Right or wrong, at least it was payed for but here purchased by a company and it was quite expensive.

Pirated music software allows anyone to have and use a home studio whick leads to a large musical development. Though I can say Reaper beats my Sony ACID Pro when it comes to earing up system resources, if there hadn't been a large number of home users noone had firstly developed Reaper and secondly noone were there to use it.

So pirated software made the tools available to the masses and have created a need for a computer. I think we can say that today there freeware or shareware that will fill everyones needs. But reading back in my reply the average Joe couldn't have started developing these programs if it wasn't for cracked software since average Joe wasn't likely to afford a compiler.

If if that didn't happen there would be no need for a home computer and GMC would never have been built.

Surely it's stealing and moraly wrong but as I see it it has made us all evelop a lot faster than it had elsewise. As it is today we all have a chanse to use freeware and shareware and I belive that is the right way to go, so that we support the massive deveopment of new software. These programs are made for us and suits out computers and basic needs for functionality better in most cases.


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blindwillie
post Nov 14 2007, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (ActiveX @ Nov 14 2007, 07:01 AM) *
I don't believe that I'm automatically entitled to a high-paying job, or anything else for that matter; but if I create a piece of software, and someone finds it useful and decides to USE it, then I expect to be paid what I'm asking, just like any other business. Pretty simple.
Some people build guitars, some people build furniture, I build software programs...why is it ok to steal my products, and not these others? No one here would argue over the rights or wrongs of someone walking into the guitar makers shop, trying out one of his guitars, deciding that he likes it, and then going back to steal it because he doesn't want to fork out the cash.

Of course you should get paid. But when people don't want to buy your software you need to rethink something.
The right way is not to enforce your way onto people through EULAs, enforcing restrictions to get continued support, lobbying politicians, governments and countries to be able to keep your position. The sane thing to do would be to look at yourself and find out why people don't buy your software. What you are doing wrong and what you could change to meet your customers need.

You don't accuse whole countries of crime because their laws doesn't suite your business. If you don't like it, fine. Go do business somewhere else. If I don't want to buy your software on your conditions, let's discuss terms that I found reasonable or I won't buy it. I'm the one who makes the choise and set the terms. Not you, the seller. If you don't want me to use it any way I want, don't sell it to me.


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Layzer
post Nov 14 2007, 04:20 PM
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I'm not too knowledgeable in this area, that said, I stopped downloading music from P2P networks for 3 reasons.

1. I did not want legal troubles
2. I don't want viruses.
3. I would hate being an artist and being deprived of my rightful earnings

P.S. FKALICH....are you going to MU\KU game on the 24th??? GO MIZZOU!


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MickeM
post Nov 14 2007, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM) *
The changing society thing was nonsense.

Nope. It's been done through out all times. This is very peaceful, used to be done with guns, swords and bow and arrow.

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM) *
I will take the evil capitalists with all their faults, over the alternative.

See there, putting millions in ones own pocket on the side seems alright to fkalich while driving 115 kn/h on a 110 road isn't. I can understand now how you can take party with record company bosses.

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM) *
Drug companies will not spend zillion of development dollars coming up with drugs to cure diseases if they have to just give it away at the end.

That's exactly what happens. Forumlas gets public after a few years and others can just copy the pharmacy and sell it cheaper.

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM) *
In the software/media industries. Well I think we can assume that if this "sharing" of somebody else's stolen property did not adversely effect profitability, they would not object. I know, you can decide if you deserve it, besides, this is just part of the overall revolution. Just don't complain when you come home and your prized guitar is missing. That was part of his social revolution.

Apples and pears, that's what you're comparing. Maybe your comparance is more valid with someone selling pirated software, or the one cracking it. You suggest here more like it's an offence to listen to the music being played on the stilen guitar while knowing it was stolen.


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blindwillie
post Nov 14 2007, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 14 2007, 08:07 AM) *
I saw a few other posts saying the real problem is not whether who has done it, but whether it is immoral/ wrong/ or justified ( we all seem to agree, that in fact, it is illegal )

Immoral: Well thats a personal oppinion, which maybe i havent been thinking of, and as with any set of oppinions, none are all the same, to me it is immoral, my morals tell me that the software, music, or film thats being pirated had someone hard working behind it, and they put alot of time and effort to create it (or even a team of people)

I would like to ask one question, i dont know the history of computers that well, but how did pirated software help computers? im not saying this as some smart ass remark, i would really like to know, i see an opportunity to gain some extra knowledge.

I could dive deep into this but I'll try to give my version in short.
I've been in the business since ~1985.
Computers where not for everyone then. Very expensive. Software had insane prices. The tools for developing software too. We wheren't any better. The software I developed was priced to get the very most out of each customer and yet kill the competion. We did have the top of the line software for what it was doing and it killed all the competition. Even though I thought our price was horrid, it was just a tenth of the main competitor.

Hmmmm, this is stearing into the long explanation, I'll change direction.

Before the office and home computer market rocketed, the above was the case.
If it hadn't been possible to pirate software the rocket would never had launched.
In my opinion it was the wide availability of software that made it interesting for common people to buy a computer. And with more computers on the market it's more attractive for software developers to write good software. More people understands what could be done with a computer and starts to develop their ideas. This leads to more great software available, which leads to more competers sold, which leads to... We have lift-off! And the rocket has kept accelerating ever since.

If what I describe above is true, was piracy good or bad? Wrong or right?
That's in the eye of the beholder. The answer is obvious to each, but different to everyone. Depending on the moral of the reader and how he/she looks at the world the answer will be different.

There is no right or wrong. Neither of the answers is correct for anybody else but you.
It all depends on what you think is important.

Did that explain what I'm trying to say?


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Vinicitur
post Nov 14 2007, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Nov 14 2007, 11:40 AM) *
Did that explain what I'm trying to say?



Yes, perfectly


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blindwillie
post Nov 14 2007, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 10:04 AM) *
That was good, entertaining way to make the point.

Another example, and here I get on the good side of Kris, and probably the teachers.

For $50 every six months I get this site. That is an absolute steal. It is worth more than that. Clearly. This is the best instruction money can buy in my view.

Kris comes up with a great idea, runs a super business, real smart. But he can only charge a fraction of what it is worth. Why? Because if he charges more, people will start stealing. For $50 every 6 months, not worth their bother. But if he charges more, there goes the revenue stream.

So he can only pay the instructors what the business can afford to pay them. If he could raise prices, and stuff would not get "SHARED", he could pay them more. See how this works, this glorious revolution. Just hurts the entrepreneur, and everybody that works for him. They don't get what they really all deserve because they have to concern themselves with not making theft attractive to users.

This is how it goes in the whole industry, because of the theft. Lower profitability, less employment. But I know, just part of the glorious holy revolution.

Your example isn't specific to Kris or software. That goes for everyone that tries to sell something. If the price is higher than someones want to pay for it, no deal. As I said before, the worth is not what the seller estimates it to. The worth is what somebody wants to pay for it.
Do you mean that it's a good thing itself if Kris could charge more and pay instructors more?

They don't get what they deserve? According to who? You?
Definitly (hmmm) not according to me. To me they get exactly what they deserve. If pavel or muris or whoever (no disrespect, I really respect you and all the teachers work) feels they don't get enough pay, talk to Kris. If Kris can't pay more they have to choose whether they shall continue with the lessons or not.

My pov is that it's a good thing that the knowledge and technology is in a range that makes it worth while for Kris to do this. If he makes a living on something the we find it worth to pay for, great!

Also there is different ways to cover the costs and get a profit. Sell to a few for a high price or sell a lot to a lower price. Low price does in no way equal low income.

And as someone else said earlier and I agree to, some professions should be done because you love it and the rewards it brings. Not entirely for the money. What I appriciate on this site is that I really do believe that the instructor's here likes to teach us and they get something out of our learning. If pavel and muris (for example. Sorry, you got picked again) wasn't as engaged in the forums this site would be just another paysite and I would surely leave.


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blindwillie
post Nov 14 2007, 06:36 PM
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And I do agree with MickeM. Revolt! It isn't neccessarily right because someone decided so.


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Jeff
post Nov 14 2007, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 14 2007, 03:27 AM) *
At some point you will have to check in every time you use it. Your rights to it will be verified. You won't get away with it anymore. That is the solution, and I am sure the industries will move in that direction at some point.

In other words, you won't get away with it. No, there will be no revolution, just better enforcement, fines, jail terms. Which is what needs to be done.

My brother once told me something. You can try to get to people by trying to convince them on the morality of some behavior. You might get to them. However, nobody likes a baseball bat smashing into their knee cap. You can be sure that will be an effective determent. When people are afraid to steal this stuff, when they think they will get into trouble, they will mostly stop doing it. Up to then, only those who hold higher ethics on such things will refrain. Others will do it, and besides, this is just party of the glorious revolution against the evil capitalists.
Yes, I agree with you. I especially feel bad for the people who work tirelessly developing programs only to have them stolen. It really is a shame.

I was thinking about something here - do you think it's possible that some of the same people who develop software put out pirated copies on P2P loaded with trojans and viruses for the benefit of those who steal them? I wonder.
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blindwillie
post Nov 14 2007, 10:38 PM
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Here is a twist on piracy. Not software but it relates.
http://www.rlslog.net/piracy-isnt-that-bad-and-they-know-it/

And some reflections on this http://hughstimson.org/


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 15 2007, 12:35 AM
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Just to clarify some points in my OP and some of the subsequent posts:

I'm not a 'professor of ethics' (I'm assuming Radarlove that you were referring to me). I have a PhD in 20th C Philosophy and when I teach u/g students one course I teach is Ethics and Business Ethics.

Amongst other qualifications I also have an MBA so I have a reasonable understanding of business economics and so on. Before any of us start to guess what business model Kris has - and I certainly don't know what the figures are and am not about to speculate - it's worth keeping in mind that piracy and file-sharing of GMC would undermine it. Contingency and 'worst case analysis' would almost certainly indicate that piracy and file-sharing would result in a loss of income to a point where the site would become unviable. What sensitivity analysis indicates as the probability to the worst case is though I can only imagine.

The ethical principle is 'do unto others... ', it doesn't say 'don't steal' but that if you do then expect and accept both the consequences of your actions and the same to happen to you. This is a universal imperative - applies in all situations at all times to be logically consistent. The laws that we live by are morally based. Morals are not universalised but contingent - that is why different countries have different laws at different times. It is also why laws can both be broken and changed. As I've said rather then break them I prefer to work to change them.

I worked my way through University - I come from a very poor family and I had three part time jobs on the go throughout my u/g. I was also an Honours 'A' student - graduated 2nd in my u/g year but I worked and sent money home to my mother DESPITE having to miss a lot of classes because I had to go to work.
I worked full time whilst doing both my Masters and then again my PhD to support myself and my family. If I didn't work it would have meant that both me and my family would have gone hungry. I teach a lot of u/g and post grad students who also work for the same reasons.

I have a lot of sympathy, and an understanding, of what it means to be a student with a low income. I don't however think that being a student entails a right to download and file share illegally. The argument that 'I don't have money and so couldn't buy it so I take it' is based in a modernist ideology of 'instrumental rationalism' and, at least to me, grounds why some sociologists refer to us as a narcissistic and egocentric generation. It happens to be both an argument and an ideology that I personal don't like.

Minor point - allowing others to copy work in my University - and indeed other Universities that I know well - is an act of 'collusion'. In my University collusion would result in a hearing in front of the University Senate with penalties that range up to, and include, instant dismissal from the program affected and any other being undertaken at said time.

I've heard for many years that those whose work is a vocation don't need to be paid as well as others because they 'do what they enjoy' and by doing so surrender their rights to a similar standard of living. Yeah right, in my book that is just another form of exploitation. They deserve the same rights and protection as everyone else and similarly software developers and coders and musicians also deserve the same protections under the law from piracy.

Final bit for a while as I'd rather others debate the topic then me. To my mind a major reason why GMC is such a good site is because of all the time and effort that Kris has invested, much more then we perhaps realise and much more then we perhaps credit him for. I feel he does this not just as an 'income' but because he loves music and is seriously committed to teaching us. It's not just hard business economics at work here - there's much more. He trusts us not to misuse all that he has invested here and piracy would be a fundamental breach of his faith in us. (Apologies to Kris - this is my opinion.)

Cheers,
Tony


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MickeM
post Nov 15 2007, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Nov 14 2007, 06:36 PM) *
It isn't neccessarily right because someone decided so.

I think I used up half an A4 to describe what you said in one short sentence laugh.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 15 2007, 12:54 AM
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laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif I do that all the time MickeM laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Pavel
post Nov 15 2007, 01:36 AM
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5 pages of discussion, already?? WOW!!


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blindwillie
post Nov 15 2007, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 15 2007, 12:51 AM) *
I think I used up half an A4 to describe what you said in one short sentence laugh.gif

Well that's a first for me then tongue.gif
I tend to drift of in all directions instead of putting it simple which I suspect makes my posts a bit confusing.
Thanks biggrin.gif


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MickeM
post Nov 15 2007, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 15 2007, 12:54 AM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif I do that all the time MickeM laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Oh yes, you if anyone is well known for short writings laugh.gif

Anyway, I'm leaving this discusison for now since noone will convince me of the opposite and I won't convince anyone else.

I usualy don't speed since I rather keep the cruise control at 100 instead of 110 where it's allowed. If I have to rush with my car to the hospital when someone needs emergency aid I will for that moment write my own laws and drive as fast as possible since I at the moment would find it appropriate. I think most people would if they found themselves in the same situation. Right? It's an offense to the law but in my mind I would think it's the right thing to do. I'm very much for peoples freedom and multiple choices where they can act according to what they think is better, which should be done without hurting someone but also without feeding someone else excessively.
In contrary to tonymiro I'd say - fine, let the kids have it their way with music and movies, me as an adult will pay for my stuff because I can afford it but I don't think someone unemployed or a kid with no money and cheap parents should not have less. And think world wide here, there's not only the US and Sweden but plenty of poor countries in the world and in my eyes they could have it at no cost. I stand for it and if I ever would make commercial music I'd like those who can afford it to buy my stuff and those who can't can just take it. It's not like they would buy in anyway.
Moray applies here. If you can buy it, do so, if you can't then just grab it. Most of us here won the lottery of being born in the right country or the right family, some have worked they way up to a descent economic state but facts are that not everyone will ever get that opportunity. If someone were sleeping under a viaduct and eating from garbage cans but got an opportunity to enjoy music for free and see movies for free spite it was against the law I wouldn't mind at all, and I would be happy if it was mine.

If I would get big in Somalia not because of record sales but since my music is widely spread and popular I'd go there for a concert if I was invited. It would never have happened if I had to rely on record sales since it's one of the poorest countries on earth. (there could be other reasons for not going to Somalia but it's just an example)

I'm completely against software piracy, in comparance to music and movies where I think the money end up in the wrong pockets and pricing is ridicilous. I'm lucky to have a job computer with Word and Excel but I lean on free and shareware rather than the more expensive tools and I'm still alive and kicking so it's possible. It had it's purpose to get people creative in their tasks but now there's enough of software for the people to go around.

And I'm completely against stealing, there were some twisted comparances to stolen goods being the same as shared music. I don't think so, it's not even close. I wouldn't be sad if someone copied an mp3 from my harddrive, I would be sad if someone stole my shoes. I would be sad if that mp3 was one of my songs and someone else put his name on it. I wouldn't if it became a commercial fiasko haha or if the song was noticed and appreciated with my name still on it.

Anyway, over and out of this thread for some while cool.gif


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blindwillie
post Nov 15 2007, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 15 2007, 12:35 AM) *
Just to clarify some points in my OP and some of the subsequent posts:

I've heard for many years that those whose work is a vocation don't need to be paid as well as others because they 'do what they enjoy' and by doing so surrender their rights to a similar standard of living. Yeah right, in my book that is just another form of exploitation. They deserve the same rights and protection as everyone else and similarly software developers and coders and musicians also deserve the same protections under the law from piracy.

Cheers,
Tony

I want to clarify one thing and make sure you didn't get me wrong.
I might have expressed it clumpsy. I did not mean that you should do this because you love it, and accept a lesser income.

What I ment was that the primary reason for being an artist should be because you love the art.
If you love what you do that will show in the result.
As you are my teacher here I'll use that as an example. I will be more willing to pay good money for a teacher who is excited about what he does and cares about my progress than to one who doesn't.
I appreciate a dedicated teacher with a bit lesser skills more than a highly skilled uninterested teacher who doesn't give a rats behind about my progress as long as he has done his part and gets his pay.

Funny situation though.
- So you want to work for us? Do you like to teach stupid people stuff?
- Oooh yes! I love it!
- Great, I'll reduce your paycheck with 10% then. If you accept that you really must love it and the job is yours.
tongue.gif

/edit: haha! I made a mistake in the post. The badges confuses me. I noticed it but was in a hurry so I had to post it as is. My kid was waiting for me to pick him up at his guitar teacher and I had forgot about him tongue.gif

This post has been edited by blindwillie: Nov 15 2007, 02:46 AM


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fkalich
post Nov 15 2007, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 14 2007, 09:21 AM) *
That's exactly what happens. Forumlas gets public after a few years and others can just copy the pharmacy and sell it cheaper.


Which means that the drug producers have to keep this in mind when deciding on whether to spend the zillions of dollars it takes to bring a drug through development, the years that takes. Most of which are failures, even after they have spent the zillions. And after that, somebody will just steal it from them. Perhaps this means they don't develop some drugs that could save people from a lot of suffering, as the profit is not there?

You have any idea what it costs to bring a medical drug to market? You think it is something noble to be undercutting the efforts of those who are working to relieve the suffering if the sick? Right, glorious socialist revolution. Problem is, after you steal everything from the evil capitalists, there is little left. What will you do then?
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