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> Announcement : Behavior Towards Instructors, All members should read this
utak3r
post Jan 6 2009, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jan 6 2009, 12:28 PM) *
A little reminder - communism deported people because there was a suspicion that - maybe - they thought differently.


Very true, I can confirm.... I'm from Poland and I have enough years on my back to know it wink.gif


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lcsdds
post Jan 6 2009, 12:46 PM
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GMC is by far the friendliest forum I have been on. I have been on other guitar forums where threads will go on for pages bashing someone's youtube video etc. There is a wide spectrum of skill levels on this forum, but as was said earlier, we are all here because we love the guitar and we all have aspirations of being able to play at a high skill level. Hopefully we can all continue to be polite but constructive with our criticism on these boards. I love this place. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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Oxac
post Jan 6 2009, 12:47 PM
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This doesn't really affect most of GMC's users, I mean... We've followed them from the beginning. But it's still good to filter out the ones that disturbs the peace so to speak.


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wrk
post Jan 6 2009, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 6 2009, 12:22 PM) *
Yeah, but most of the time you don't get an alarm bell ringing when reading feedback. It's like: well, you can improve it, but if you don't you still rock. That's my main point smile.gif


I know what you mean and i think sometimes quite similar, but i'm fully convinced that this is the way to go to create and to keep a place like GMC.

GMC is a community, where people know each other after a while and are able to evaluate there progress. Progress of each member is noticeable over time and i think it is important to say/hear this to keep motivation. Comments here are mostly based on personal progress. Youtube is the opposite example, most of the people don't know you there and compare your skills to others, which unfortunately will reduce words like "awesome" and "brilliant". This gives maybe an more objective opinion, but to turn those comments into motivation is sometimes hard to take.






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Boson
post Jan 6 2009, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jan 6 2009, 01:44 PM) *



Very 80,s smile.gif made me smile!


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SonofDestiny
post Jan 6 2009, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jan 6 2009, 12:28 PM) *
So GMC is communistic because the only way you can say what you want - is to use smileys?

To me that sounds like the definition of a perfect democracy!

A little reminder - communism deported people because there was a suspicion that - maybe - they thought differently.

Wait I forgot to use a smiley... biggrin.gif


Am I not being ridiculed by thinking differently right now? smile.gif

Have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? That's what I meant by comparing GMC to communism. If you think about it deeply (well not even deeply as it's pretty obvious) it's exactly the thing that's happening right now.

Look, if you guys want 'constructive' criticism, go ahead, but it just pisses me off that when I want to get neg's I get hamburgerfeedback with a tiny burger. And it's not because people don't want to say it, but because they are scared of others.

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength." Read the book... 1984 smile.gif


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Fsgdjv
post Jan 6 2009, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 6 2009, 01:22 PM) *
Am I not being ridiculed by thinking differently right now? smile.gif

Have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? That's what I meant by comparing GMC to communism. If you think about it deeply (well not even deeply as it's pretty obvious) it's exactly the thing that's happening right now.

Look, if you guys want 'constructive' criticism, go ahead, but it just pisses me off that when I want to get neg's I get hamburgerfeedback with a tiny burger. And it's not because people don't want to say it, but because they are scared of others.

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength." Read the book... 1984 smile.gif


Actually, I think you can get pretty good feedback on this forum, with people still being polite. I'm not a huge fan of everyone being overly polite with each others, and I think there is some kind of space between where we are right now and where it gets too much of people being unpolite, but I definetly prefer this over any other forum on the internet. It feels great to not have to worry about being flamed for everything you say.

This post has been edited by Fsgdjv: Jan 6 2009, 01:38 PM


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fkalich
post Jan 6 2009, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 6 2009, 07:22 AM) *
Am I not being ridiculed by thinking differently right now? smile.gif


Kris does not ridicule, he is a kidder. I am sure in person that is obvious, but body language is not on internet. Happens to me all the time, a word or phrase has a connotation to someone, that was not intended at all, it really can't be avoided to an extent.

I find comfort in Quantum Physics theory on such subjects. When you really begin to grasp what that all means (and that all evidence supports it to be true), well what the heck? When you consider that, sheesh, I mean, when there really is a infinitesimally small possibility that I could vanish from earth and find myself somewhere in the Andromeda Galaxy at any moment, well sheesh, not going to worry about little things.
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berko
post Jan 6 2009, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 6 2009, 01:22 PM) *
Am I not being ridiculed by thinking differently right now? smile.gif

Have you ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell? That's what I meant by comparing GMC to communism. If you think about it deeply (well not even deeply as it's pretty obvious) it's exactly the thing that's happening right now.

Look, if you guys want 'constructive' criticism, go ahead, but it just pisses me off that when I want to get neg's I get hamburgerfeedback with a tiny burger. And it's not because people don't want to say it, but because they are scared of others.

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength." Read the book... 1984 smile.gif


Interesting stuff and yeah, I've read the book (a couple of times even). I've read your previous post on this thread as well and I see (I hope I do) what you mean.

Still, the comments received from each other will alway remain relative. Many of us see each other's progress, many of us do not. If you want to remain objective about someone's playing, you'll basically have to keep up with the progress he/she makes. If there's a bad vibrato in an upload, it can bleed your ears but perhaps after a few months of playing it's still better to give it an attempt (and record it) by the uploader than playing without feel for the first few years. Objective in my dictionary is also relative. If we criticize each other then the feedbacks given will bare a totally different meaning to everyone. So basically if there is a vid that s--ks but still resembles guitar playing and it's obvious that the person playing in it only started a month ago, or if we encounter the complete opposite: great playing with minor mistakes, we can post our comments with smileys and then include what we would like to see to be improved. It's basically the duty of every one of us to read this "objective" polite comment the way we want to. If it's just generally polite, it could mean that our playing is overall good, but not outstanding and could be improved. If it's enthusiastic, then it can mean something better. If it's full of advices and there is a humble smile.gif at the end then it's the comment of someone how took his/her time to write feedback but would like to hear some more entertaining playing next time.

Oh, btw the Orwell novel is really an exaggerated version and narration of communism. In reality (especially in China, Russia and the eastern European states) the communism was less systematic, much more kept in secret, nobody knew the rules and was thousand time bloodier. In my opinion, although it was creative to bring this book as an example, for many of us (living in the eastern part of Europe) the notion of communism will bring us certain memories and will provide a totally different understanding.

cheers cool.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jan 6 2009, 01:58 PM
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Anyone who thinks that criticism isn't allowed has misunderstood both the posting guidelines and the GMC philosophy. Criticism is the most important way we improve, but criticism isn't the same as being rude or negative, they are very different,.

Webseters online dictionary defines Criticism as:

1 a: the act of criticizing usually unfavorably <seeking encouragement rather than [i]criticism> b: a critical observation or remark <an unfair criticism> c: critique[/i]
2: the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature ; [i]also
: writings expressing such evaluation or analysis <an anthology of literary criticism>[/i]
3
: the scientific investigation of literary documents (as the Bible) in regard to such matters as origin, text, composition, or history

We are concerned with meaning number 2 - note that the word rudeness does not appear, instead, we are analyzing and evaluating. Usually, people understand meaning number 1 but not meaning number 2.

Its human psychology that if they are attacked rather than analyzing and seeking out the reasons for the attack and trying to see the other point of view, they just defend themselves. That results in little improvement in most cases because people become resentful. If on the other hand you are analytical and evaluate their playing without attacking them they will learn from it.

Also note, that Criticism, in the form of number 2 does not have to be positive, but it should be constructive.

"Dude your playing is awesome" when it clearly is not, doesn't help anyone.
"Dude your playing sucks" even if it does, doesn't help anyone either.

but, "Some good points there, but you need to work a little on your vibrato, here's a link to a lesson" - that is helpful on many levels, and is what we want to see at GMC.


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SonofDestiny
post Jan 6 2009, 02:03 PM
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I didn't worry about it, I just thought it odd that criticism on the way things work here aren't taken 100% seriously. I've complained once about something in GMC per PM and I never even got a reply. Even though GMC is cheap I am still a costumer and I would like to know what's up and what I'm really buying. (Oh and if you saw my body language here you would know that I'm not stressing at all nor trying to annoy anyone with my comments laugh.gif.)

Oh and about the kidder. I didn't take it too seriously, but it did kind of support my point of view. It's also a bit weird that GMC is so subtle with everything, except when there's criticism.

EDIT: I think I'll just shut up. Once you get me going I don't want to stop arguing. I think we all want the same thing: progress. You want to achieve it your way and I want to achieve it the way which works best for me. The way you describe it, Andrew, does not work for me. All I want is for people to be able to give me criticism in the way that I will make most progress of.

I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings by being honest for once, but I thought it was time to say it.

Oh and berko: yeah that's true. It is exaggerated. I should have said Orwelian communism instead I suppose tongue.gif

This post has been edited by SonofDestiny: Jan 6 2009, 02:10 PM


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Ajmurrell
post Jan 6 2009, 02:20 PM
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I've read through your posts and I understand what you are saying (I think!) but to be honest my experience has been quite different on GMC.

When I have made uploads and posts with the intention of getting constructive critiscm, I've recieved it. I started learning emir's Vinnie moore solo about a month and a half ago, and have made several uploads and also recieved many constructive critiscms from emir personally and other members.

I think GMC has struck a perfect balance in regards to how they approach giving constructive feedback and areas to improve. There's a healthy level of praise (and in my opinion, not overly) coupled with area's to improve in most cases I've seen.

If you wish to have a more direct, in depth opinion and critique on your playing I suggest you stress that point when you make a post, so that people understand that you want that kind of feedback.

Uploading a video/take of your playing on to a forum full of very acomplished players is hard to do for many of us, no matter what ability you're at. I would worry that many people would be put off asking for help if via uploads if GMC focused too much on the blunt critiscm.

There's a wide group of age ranges and levels on this forum which I presume all would want fair and honest advice on how to improve, but a huge part of teaching is keeping people motivated to learn. My motivation to show my progress on certain lessons or techniques would be severly demolished if there was little praise on your progress, even if there are many areas that need a lot of work.

Just my opinion.

QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 6 2009, 01:03 PM) *
I didn't worry about it, I just thought it odd that criticism on the way things work here aren't taken 100% seriously. I've complained once about something in GMC per PM and I never even got a reply. Even though GMC is cheap I am still a costumer and I would like to know what's up and what I'm really buying. (Oh and if you saw my body language here you would know that I'm not stressing at all nor trying to annoy anyone with my comments laugh.gif.)

Oh and about the kidder. I didn't take it too seriously, but it did kind of support my point of view. It's also a bit weird that GMC is so subtle with everything, except when there's criticism.



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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Jan 6 2009, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jan 6 2009, 04:58 AM) *
Anyone who thinks that criticism isn't allowed has misunderstood both the posting guidelines and the GMC philosophy. Criticism is the most important way we improve, but criticism isn't the same as being rude or negative, they are very different,.

Webseters online dictionary defines Criticism as:

1 a: the act of criticizing usually unfavorably <seeking encouragement rather than [i]criticism> b: a critical observation or remark <an unfair criticism> c: critique[/i]
2: the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature ; [i]also
: writings expressing such evaluation or analysis <an anthology of literary criticism>[/i]
3
: the scientific investigation of literary documents (as the Bible) in regard to such matters as origin, text, composition, or history

We are concerned with meaning number 2 - note that the word rudeness does not appear, instead, we are analyzing and evaluating. Usually, people understand meaning number 1 but not meaning number 2.

Its human psychology that if they are attacked rather than analyzing and seeking out the reasons for the attack and trying to see the other point of view, they just defend themselves. That results in little improvement in most cases because people become resentful. If on the other hand you are analytical and evaluate their playing without attacking them they will learn from it.

Also note, that Criticism, in the form of number 2 does not have to be positive, but it should be constructive.

"Dude your playing is awesome" when it clearly is not, doesn't help anyone.
"Dude your playing sucks" even if it does, doesn't help anyone either.

but, "Some good points there, but you need to work a little on your vibrato, here's a link to a lesson" - that is helpful on many levels, and is what we want to see at GMC.


I agree with what your saying to a point. I also agree with the Son of Destiny.

Often, I find people being nice to others about their playing, when criticism is often essential to that person.

Sure it would be great if everyone talked like Andrew's last example ( "Some good points there....") but the reality is that we dont.

I am proposing that we make a Sticky on Proper Criticism. That way we wont even have to look at this thread and we can all help each other really improve.

Believe me, there all people that do give great feedback here, and pinpoint mistakes, but not everyone. Im guilty of that aswell.

A little bit of honesty can go along way, and I feel like sometimes we beat around the bush a little to much just for the sake of being "Nice".

Just sharing some of my thoughts......


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Carlos Carrillo
post Jan 6 2009, 02:55 PM
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I believe that if it is the better thing for "our" beautiful community, we all must agree! And yes!! I said "our", because GMC are we all! All! Members, seniors, instructors... Each and every one of us are done by us that this community continues forward! If we all go for the same place, we will obtain our goals!
I believe also that it is important not to lose the good education! In addition, its good be respectful and Funny! wink.gif

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kaznie_NL
post Jan 6 2009, 03:05 PM
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So this thread is active again wink.gif Well there is one thing I want to say:
Sometimes people post stuff, and they tried very hard, but there's a little mistake that they don't see. I think you should be able to give some critics. On this forum when I want to say that someone might try to use a bit more vibrato, I have to immediatly say "but I think it sounds awesome!" I don't mean that everyone should go "you suck..." but like Andrew sad ""Dude your playing is awesome" when it clearly is not, doesn't help anyone." is also very true!

I hope people can get a bit sharper, but not to much. When I post something and a guy says "that sounds quite nice" I don't feel really happy because I still don't know what he thought about it. When i post something horrible, I think I should be told (in a normal, sophisticated way) what I have to work on and that it's not "quite nice".

I hope I made the point without sounding like someone who wants to have negative comments everywhere. I think you should be able to post a negative comment, with a positive feeling to it... got it?? laugh.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jan 6 2009, 03:09 PM
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Your vibrato sucks but may angels bless your every move and you live a very healthy life. laugh.gif

Your bends need work as if they are spot on your takes will sound more professional (but it was still incredible)

The bit in bold is the bit that people tend to add unnecessarily. The first line is just a joke biggrin.gif


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kaznie_NL
post Jan 6 2009, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jan 6 2009, 03:09 PM) *
Your vibrato sucks but may angels bless your every move and you live a very healthy life. laugh.gif

Your bends need work as if they are spot on your takes will sound more professional (but it was still incredible)

The bit in bold is the bit that people tend to add unnecessarily. The first line is just a joke biggrin.gif

Exactly!! While without it that's great. For me, it's the best way of giving critics. Telling peole what they do wrong, how to improve it and then make a positive vibe by telling they're on the right track!


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jan 6 2009, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Jan 6 2009, 09:05 AM) *
I think you should be able to post a negative comment, with a positive feeling to it... got it?? laugh.gif


That's exactly right!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 6 2009, 03:52 PM
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Communication culture concept that is accepted at GMC is something that represents one of the cornerstones of this community, and it should not be underestimated. On the surface it may appear to someone that everyone is un-really nice to everyone, maybe someone will say too polite, but this kind of a communication is really based on a common sense in humans. Text communication is a lot different (limited) than live communication, but text communication offers a degree of immunity and anonymity. When you talk to someone in real world you will hardly say to someone "you are no good", "you're playing sucks" and other very uncool things that can be found on YT comments for example.
Think about if any of us would participate in communication in real life where participants bash each other and say bad things. I think many would leave that communication not having good experiences at all. So motivation to come to GMC and to have a polite conversation with one another, and knowing that you will be welcomed here in a positive atmosphere is something that has a lot of value that is bound to last. Even if you do not directly agree with someone on something in general positive communication climate you will quickly forget about it and continue to keep the conversation constructive and balanced.


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timono
post Jan 6 2009, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jan 6 2009, 03:52 PM) *
Communication culture concept that is accepted at GMC is something that represents one of the cornerstones of this community, and it should not be underestimated. On the surface it may appear to someone that everyone is un-really nice to everyone, maybe someone will say too polite, but this kind of a communication is really based on a common sense in humans. Text communication is a lot different (limited) than live communication, but text communication offers a degree of immunity and anonymity. When you talk to someone in real world you will hardly say to someone "you are no good", "you're playing sucks" and other very uncool things that can be found on YT comments for example.
Think about if any of us would participate in communication in real life where participants bash each other and say bad things. I think many would leave that communication not having good experiences at all. So motivation to come to GMC and to have a polite conversation with one another, and knowing that you will be welcomed here in a positive atmosphere is something that has a lot of value that is bound to last. Even if you do not directly agree with someone on something in general positive communication climate you will quickly forget about it and continue to keep the conversation constructive and balanced.


exactly, it is very easy to say someone sucks when you don't see the person. If i sometimes read the things people say on youtube... it would really make me feel miserable if I would be treated like that (even if it would really suck laugh.gif ).

I also think the constructive critisism given on GMC works. People say to you what they think of it and what you can improve. It's simple and effective. it is something not commonly found in an internet community and it should stay that way!! biggrin.gif

Timon


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