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> The Future Of Music And Musicians, o boy this is a tough one... what do you think?
Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 26 2007, 01:14 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised if in some time we really don't have to carry all of our equipment on gigs again. In like 10 years maybe it will be possible to pack all the racks in small casings size of a small suitcase. Already it is too heavy to carry around amps, stomps, cables etc. sad.gif We are just waiting for the sampling quality to become better I guess. Nothing is preventing me even now to play with some GT8 on the floor and thats it, but imagine in some 10 years what advancement in music and music gear are we expecting. What do you think? What will happen? Have you noticed any trends based on your experienced?


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Dejan Farkas
post Dec 26 2007, 01:26 AM
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I remember some 15 years ago, I gave a HIWATT amp and 150WAT Marshall cabinet for a small combo Fender Reverb Deluxe because it was to heavy to carry around for gigs blink.gif biggrin.gif

But my vision for gigs in the future is a guitar, a laptop and a foot switch (something like GuitarRig) directly into a mixer and you get any sound you want smile.gif


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Pavel
post Dec 26 2007, 01:26 AM
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Well, carrying gear is difficult for sure but it is also part of the gig and isn't it amazing to get on stage and have a whole bunch of gear in a rack behind yourself?? hehehe looks awesome to me!

You are right about sampling - i guess sampling will soon be realistic enough to push away all the analog pedals aside and mount all we need in one small multi-fx like the new G-System or something smile.gif

Companies are really going digital now, but people are divided in 2 parts: 1 part stays with tube amps and analog pedals while the second part doesn't care and uses everything: multi-fx, modeling amps, modeling pedals and similar gear.

Let's wait and see smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 26 2007, 01:36 PM
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Good topic Ivan smile.gif

To be honest,I played few gigs (small ones) only with Pandora into mixer,shame on me ph34r.gif
But the feeling of tubes running,cabinet shaking...that's something else. biggrin.gif
Many guys are already using only guitar,cable and laptop for giging,
it's just a matter of bottom line for every single musician,sound wise. smile.gif
But I'm sure there's a little chinese guy trying to pack whole gear into one USB stick,
wait and see,he's not kidding laugh.gif wink.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Dec 26 2007, 01:40 PM
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I've carried my share of PA systems around - I think the PA at least will stay the same, upi need those big speakers top get a decent sound, though I hope one day there will be a technology that lets you have a wirelessly connected PA rig with speakers the size of a TV monitor smile.gif

I think that modelling will get better until you can take something like a PoD, and even the tube guys will have to admit it sounds awesome - they are already way easier to use onstage and for recording (instant patch recall with one button), but people argue about the sound vs tubes - I think in 10 years we won;t be able to tell the difference!

I also think that die-hard tube users will carry small 5W combos around, and just mic them up to the monitor sized PA system, and we will all have less sore backs!


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 26 2007, 01:49 PM
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Spot on Andrew,I forgot to say few things about difference,digital Vs tube.
Truth is,sound of digital units is getting better each day,we can't deny that.
But in my opinion greatest difference is under fingers,
you can't feel the string with digital device the same like with all-tube setup,
not to mention using volume pot for regulation of gain,
it's impossible with digi stuff.
On the other hand,lots of players prefer to make few sounds with different gains,
while some of them play whole gig with just one gain settings. wink.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 26 2007, 01:57 PM
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Shame on you Muris smile.gif But I don't think(at least) 80% audience noticed the Pandora sound really wink.gif
Playing with proc has its advantages, no heavy pedalboards, easy setup, but the sounds is (currently) bad for gigs. The bigger the gig (bigger the sound) the more poor sounding are multieffect units direclty into mixers. Rarely people today use ONLY digital, they often use digital where it gives its full potential, but good ol' amps and cabs are still there. It will be a while after we remove those tubeheads from the scene wink.gif
I've heard that many guitarists (like Adrian Smith for example) are using multieffect units and yes that is true - but hey - they are powered by 30th anniversary Marshalls and that is the main catch. Tube sound is here from the 50ies and will stay here for some time. (about 10 years.. wink.gif )
I think the main problem (besides sampling), are the PA systems. As time passes these too are becoming more and more digital and well defined. Also the guitars are becoming more and more eaiser to play...

And my question is where does it all leads? It seems to me like some kind of concept of play-by-wire similar to those in the cars of today. We play one note, the symphonic orchestra is heard from the speaker, the role of guitar musician is diminishing, and the role of MIDI compositors, samples and easy setups is growing stronger. I do find this scary because I'm an analogue type of a musician and don't really like digital much, only when is obviously practical. But what if everything digital becomes too practical. I would still then carry around my amp, heavy stomps an being left behind somebody who is carrying all hes music on a USB flashdrive. Oh and the little Chinese guy will be mad at me because I didn't buy his USB. cool.gif

This post has been edited by Milenkovic Ivan: Dec 26 2007, 02:00 PM


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Juan M. Valero
post Dec 26 2007, 02:09 PM
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I think carring the equipment is nt a problem because if the band needs to carrie all the lights, amplificators, cabinets, instruments, etc, it's not a problem to carry one flightcase for the guitar racks, no problem to carry 50 Kgs more when you are carring 500 or more...

mmm I don't know if you can see what I wanted to say :|


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 26 2007, 06:46 PM
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As a question then guys -

A few years (ok about 20 years ago - I'm showing my age) - Kraftwerk did a gig in the UK where they didn't come on stage at all but stood off to to the sides and triggered their synths by remote.

Nowadays it's possible - with bad latency granted - to play live with someone else in real time at the other side of the planet.

So, and I'm not talking about sequenced stuff but real time, how far are we from playing a remote gig?

If we can - imo - the prospects are wonderful - think about being able to play with Pavel, Muris, Ivan... whoever live and in real time blink.gif ... Seriously the software, to a limited (ok maybe very limited) extent, is already there.

10 years, 20, maybe a bit more blink.gif biggrin.gif

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Muris Varajic
post Dec 26 2007, 07:05 PM
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Tony made a good point,linking is awesome thing,some latency yeah,
but who knows what will happen in few years.
Ohhh,I'd love it soooo much,having all gear at home
with some extra fast and long range wireless biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 26 2007, 07:05 PM
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There are already sites that enable real time jamming via internet. It's a matter of broadband speed there, nothing else. But tech is advancing in rapid speed at geometric rates really so this will be possible like in a few years. I already tried to have an online session and it doesn't sound so good because of the latency..but next year, when I take the 2Mbit internet smile.gif O boy, that would be interesting.
I think there is a lot more music today then before, but more music doesn't nececeraly means better music. Today we have "music junk" on the internet, and this junk will become bigger and bigger. But with large quantities of music junk comes more quality music in general.


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MickeM
post Dec 26 2007, 07:32 PM
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I will stubbornly be carrying my stuff with me. I'm not so fond of plugging into the PA when the better alternative available is a tube amp head with a 4x12 cabinet. wink.gif
That's a little bit on the funny side, these floor boards of today are truly coming close in sound to the real deal. Now I havn't played one through a PA but if that's sounding real enough I'm game.

Today I can see myself with a GNX unit, Line6 POD or similar if the venture is rather big and they are miking all the amps anyway. (meaning the sound technician won't let you play loud enough anyway). Or at least keep one as backup.

I could think of something like a VettaII or a ZenTera SS amp because one question is - Who will notice it's SS anyway??? These gadgets are starting to sound so real compared to just a few years ago. But still a VettaII or ZenTera is quite a bit to carry around. I saw Symphony X perform with a VettaII and that sounded great.

In 10 years from now, as the question was, I belive the digital units are so good it's useless to bring a half stack to the gig. Soundwise they will be equal, probably the small digital unit will be simpler to operate with all effects built in.
However, I think it will always be much, much cooler to bring a real tube amp head together with a cabinet to a gig than a small neat floor unit.
Just like a classic Ford Mustang will always be cooler than a modern Toyota Corolla. cool.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 26 2007, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Dec 26 2007, 07:32 PM) *
...
However, I think it will always be much, much cooler to bring a real tube amp head together with a cabinet to a gig than a small neat floor unit.
Just like a classic Ford Mustang will always be cooler than a modern Toyota Corolla. cool.gif

...



Very true MickeM smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 26 2007, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Dec 26 2007, 07:32 PM) *
I could think of something like a VettaII or a ZenTera SS amp because one question is - Who will notice it's SS anyway???


Thats an interesting, half of the people don't even notice the difference - even now. In 10 years, I think only experts will notice the difference, and 20 years from now on, we will need some precise audio measuring equipment to notice that difference. Can't wait. I'm tired of carrying around pedalboard and amp in the 4 in the morning home. smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 27 2007, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Dec 26 2007, 08:42 PM) *
Thats an interesting, half of the people don't even notice the difference - even now. In 10 years, I think only experts will notice the difference, and 20 years from now on, we will need some precise audio measuring equipment to notice that difference. Can't wait. I'm tired of carrying around pedalboard and amp in the 4 in the morning home. smile.gif


Add winter and bloody ice on stars to that,I almost broke my neck once laugh.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Dec 27 2007, 02:51 PM
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Regarding real time jamming - nope, its still not possible with audio - you can maybe approach it with MIDI as the data rates are so much lower.

There is a thing called ninjam that lets you jam, but you always jam one bar behind everyone else - this was a design decision - if you have to have some latency, make it a musically valid amount, not a random amount smile.gif

Part of the problem is that there is a difference between bandwidth and latency in network terms. It doesn't matter how big your pipe is - thats a measure of how much data can be carried at once, not how fast it gets there, and the more data you are sending down a pipe, the more processing it needs and usually the greater a delay is, so bigger pipes are not the answer on their own.

You probably know from gaming that ping times are measured in milliseconds - 10, 20, 100 - thats fairly good latency right? But a ping packet is just 56 bytes long (from memory) , for music you need to send at least 128kbits/second for average quality. Add to that, as we know from recording, any latency more than maybe 10ms starts to make it hard to sync.

And if that weren't bad enough - the real time audio has to compete with people looking at web pages and downloading programs. The internet has no way to know that the audio has to be delivered on time so they compete. This at least will be fixed in the next few years with a new version of the Internet Protocol called IPV6 which will enable realtime data such as audio to be given priority.

So we still have a ways to go with technology sad.gif

I agree with Tony though, this will arrive eventually - maybe in 10, 20 years - then we will truly be able to Jam together in real time, I am SO looking forward to that day!


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 27 2007, 04:30 PM
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You have a strong point there Andrew - and you gave me an idea.. What if for example we have MIDI interface for a guitar? It is already possible to buy them and they are not very expensive? THEN we can send out just the MIDI and the computers will do the processing locally. But off course the quality would be considerably lower then audio - for now wink.gif

This post has been edited by Milenkovic Ivan: Dec 27 2007, 04:35 PM


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Andrew Cockburn
post Dec 27 2007, 06:34 PM
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I think you are on to something Ivan smile.gif

It wouldn't sound like we are used to but it would be the best chance to jam in real time over the net !


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 30 2007, 02:02 AM
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QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Dec 27 2007, 04:30 PM) *
You have a strong point there Andrew - and you gave me an idea.. What if for example we have MIDI interface for a guitar? It is already possible to buy them and they are not very expensive? THEN we can send out just the MIDI and the computers will do the processing locally. But off course the quality would be considerably lower then audio - for now wink.gif


There are many interfaces like that,mostly from Roland(pickup+converter)
but still we will need something to convert it into audio sad.gif

How about this?
Huge sampler at GMC server with tons of great sounds,
then we just connect ourself to it,send midi,pick a sound,rock the house biggrin.gif

p.s. Kris,please don't shoot ME this time laugh.gif wink.gif

This post has been edited by Muris: Dec 30 2007, 02:03 AM


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Andrew Cockburn
post Dec 30 2007, 03:51 AM
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GMC sample server - yes!


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