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steve25
Probably most of you have heard of it, it's the video that's currently doing the rounds on YouTube. The clip where the marine throws a dog off a cliff. It's been on the news and everything but for those of you who haven't seen it here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nx8auRWCk...feature=related

Well what do you think? Is it fake or is it real? Personally i'm not sure, it didn't move a lot but then again they don't when they're picked up by the scruff. They could have put in sound of the dog afterwards and it did seem a bit close but i'm not sure, knowing some people these days it could be real.

Warning - some may find the video upsetting, particularly animal lovers. Also quite a lot of bad language in the comments about the video.
Cheers,
Tony
SamJ
The dog does look quite real I guess but it didn't move at all and that barking it made sounded fake to me, so yeah, it's probably fake.

Although, I suppose it could be a dead dog that they had found, that would make more sense.
Saoirse O'Shea
Steve - I've added a warning in case some people are upset by the video. At this point though I'm not going to take any other mod action so as to let a discussion run.

Is it fake or not - ummm don't know though either way it's is as a minimum to me personally a nasty thing to do. If it's real then it's horrid and if it's fake, why do that to upset some people?

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Tony
steve25
Tony - i probably should have thought of that first, apologies

There's a lot of uproar about it. We would all like to think that it is fake but you just don't know. The other question i have to ask is what is a puppy doing on a cliff?
Duncan
Made me laugh this whole thing. Yeah a dog getting killed is bad and all that. But there is so much worse stuff going on over there and that doesn't get 400,000 views and comments or whatever. Just because it's a cute dog.

Blatantly fake anyway.
dusty
certainly looks fake, but then again there are some sick ba***rds around, although i must admit to a guilty chuckle.
JVM
QUOTE (Duncan @ Mar 16 2008, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Made me laugh this whole thing. Yeah a dog getting killed is bad and all that. But there is so much worse stuff going on over there and that doesn't get 400,000 views and comments or whatever. Just because it's a cute dog.

Blatantly fake anyway.



Pretty much how I feel.
Goliath
People make these kinds of videos to exploit the oversensitivity of the masses. Hate to tell you but we live in a wussified environment where people have very little to no perspective so they over react to the possibility of something cute dying. I don't think it's real, but the gross over reaction is telling.
Smikey2006
yea im not sure if its real or not.. if it is w/e if its not w/e.. it shows that our society is unaware of everyday truths and not ready to handle alot of it.. during wars real people die, children die, bombs don't spare cute little puppies either.. this is an over reaction for a dog and an under reaction regarding war its self.
Angelica
QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Mar 17 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yea im not sure if its real or not.. if it is w/e if its not w/e.. it shows that our society is unaware of everyday truths and not ready to handle alot of it.. during wars real people die, children die, bombs don't spare cute little puppies either.. this is an over reaction for a dog and an under reaction regarding war its self.


As someone says, "Two wrongs don't make a right", just because I'm horrified by war and dead children, doesn't mean I'm happy watching a dog die. I haven't watched it actually. Makes me feel sick.
mad.gif
Duncan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzroIquVy0Y

Oh the humanity.
Goliath
Two wrongs don't make a right, but wasting energy crying about something you have no control over isn't going to help either.
dusty
QUOTE (Duncan @ Mar 17 2008, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>



i have been mullet fishing with a shotgun and had a better catch than that tongue.gif
fkalich
I won't lower myself to even view it

I don't trust people who are not disgust by this kind of thing. they may act fine under stable conditions, but you don't turn it on or off. If you are heartless towards animals, under the right circumstances, you will be the heartless towards your own species.
fkalich
QUOTE (Angelica @ Mar 17 2008, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As someone says, "Two wrongs don't make a right", just because I'm horrified by war and dead children, doesn't mean I'm happy watching a dog die. I haven't watched it actually. Makes me feel sick.
mad.gif


good for you.
Saoirse O'Shea
QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 17 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I won't lower myself to even view it

I don't trust people who are not disgust by this kind of thing. they may act fine under stable conditions, but you don't turn it on or off. If you are heartless towards animals, under the right circumstances, you will be the heartless towards your own species.


Absolutely.

One of the sad things is that previously a human quality was to be humane to those in most need of care - human and animal (Heidegger's Sein und Zeit). It seems that in the 'enlightened' world we live in this value has been abandoned. At a sociological level perhaps we now live in a depthless world where society has been corroded (Sennett - The Corrosion of Conformity) to such an extent that the only thing that counts is that we are entertained (Baudrillard - Simulacra and Simulation).

Cheers,
Tony
Guitarman700
if thats real, i hope those marines are killed. i dont care how, just let it happen. if its fake, then their just idiots.
Duncan
QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Mar 17 2008, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if thats real, i hope those marines are killed. i dont care how, just let it happen. if its fake, then their just idiots.


I can't get over how much I despise you right now.

You're putting the life of a puppy over two human beings?
Goliath
So two wrongs don't make a right but three wrongs does?

fkalich is right, I agree whole heartedly that someone who has the capacity to be so cruel to an animal absolutely will likely harbor few reservations about turning on their own species, but on the same side of the very same coin, you're looking at 3 marines who are being shot at and shooting at other living beings constantly. The reality that they live in is so far from the sheltered lifestyle we all enjoy that they lose touch with things like that. When all you know is death and violence it's kind of tough to just flip on compassion again. Having friends who served in the theater they typically all said it was easier just to kind of switch off and do what was necessary to keep themselves and their friends alive, then when they come back have to re-interface and switch back on.

Of course, it brings up the argument of the civil vs. the savage which is a theme prevalent in pretty much every work of modern literature and which one is "right". Someone who has subscribed to higher education and operates in an academic environment will obviously choose the civil, while someone who is in an environment fraught with risk might opt for the savage more often than not since it serves their ends better. A lot of times it is projection on behalf of the beholder. If someone does exist in an environment where they can reap the benefits of higher education, odds are they lack the skills and instincts to survive in any other sort of environment. You can prescribe to whatever beliefs and ideals you hold lofty but the most human instinct of them all is self preservation: survival. If fulfilling that means performing acts of coldness that color your world view, then so be it. It is easy to judge someone in a situation you have absolutely no frame of reference for, but if you were plunked down in a hostile environment with your wits to protect you, odds are you would steel yourself as well.
JVM
QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 17 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I won't lower myself to even view it

I don't trust people who are not disgust by this kind of thing. they may act fine under stable conditions, but you don't turn it on or off. If you are heartless towards animals, under the right circumstances, you will be the heartless towards your own species.


I do feel disgust at this, if it's real. However it's outweighed by a perhaps cynical feeling that every day worse things happen that no one speaks out about. It is easy to speak out and feel outrage from your armchair in front of your computer (I'm not saying this specifically applies to anyone here). I do not think I could classify myself as heartless, towards animals or humans. You may think differently.

The mere fact that we have two sides sitting here pointing at each other and labeling each other with conclusive namecalling is a pretty big sign, IMO, that something is wrong with our perception of this situation.
swingline
Its probably fake but those are the idiots that make all of us other Americans look look crap.
JVM
QUOTE (swingline @ Mar 17 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its probably fake but those are the idiots that make all of us other Americans look look crap.


I can agree with that mad.gif
swingline
This guy has a pretty good perspective on the deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9xYl_VVBXw&NR=1
JVM
QUOTE (swingline @ Mar 17 2008, 09:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This guy has a pretty good perspective on the deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9xYl_VVBXw&NR=1


He makes some good points.
Guitarman700
QUOTE (Duncan @ Mar 17 2008, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't get over how much I despise you right now.

You're putting the life of a puppy over two human beings?

go ahead and despise me, it just makes you look stupid...
i tend to like animals more than humans, less stupid, more agreeable, and wont stab you in the back at the soonest opportunity.
swingline
QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Mar 17 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
go ahead and despise me, it just makes you look stupid...
i tend to like animals more than humans, less stupid, more agreeable, and wont stab you in the back at the soonest opportunity.


Tell that to an 800 pound tiger.
Tuubsu
QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Mar 18 2008, 06:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
go ahead and despise me, it just makes you look stupid...
i tend to like animals more than humans, less stupid, more agreeable, and wont stab you in the back at the soonest opportunity.


I actually agree with you.... I don't like dogs that much, but still I wouldn't say human life is any more valuable than a dogs life for example, just because I'm a human or humans are more intelligent. This is just my 2 cents, my opinion.

I sure have not been where that marine dude has been, but at this point I would swear on my life I wouldn't throw EVEN a bird off a cliff in his situation....
Duncan
QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Mar 18 2008, 04:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
go ahead and despise me, it just makes you look stupid...
i tend to like animals more than humans, less stupid, more agreeable, and wont stab you in the back at the soonest opportunity.


I don't see any way that it makes me look stupid. You have just condemned two people you know nothing about to death merely because they may or may not have killed a puppy. Yet alone to mention the soldiers are actually out there because of your countries current administration.

Different forms of animal cruelty go on around the world everyday, and I bet half of them wouldn't get your 'death penalty'.
Saoirse O'Shea
Guys,
I said early on that I was going to let the discussion run. However if it is going to descend in to personalised name calling then I will take action. Cool it and discuss without the flaming.
Cheers,
Tony
Duncan
Haha I love how my rating has gone down from 5 stars to 3 stars today. And the only visitor to my profile was guitarman700.

Textbook.
Guitarman700
QUOTE (Duncan @ Mar 18 2008, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Haha I love how my rating has gone down from 5 stars to 3 stars today. And the only visitor to my profile was guitarman700.

Textbook.

i didnt do that. unlike you i know how to let things go. wink.gif
Goliath
Humans ARE more intelligent than "lesser" animals and their capacity for deceit/betrayl is a function of it. I believe animals are smarter than we probably give them credit for, as evidenced by the "ALEX" experiment (African Grey parrot could count objects, understood the concepts of color, shape, size, spatial relation and could answer the questions when asked the difference between two objects), however to suppose that an animal is somehow better for being more primal is an equally ridiculous claim. I don't understand the self loathing that is tought in modern society. People are ashamed of what race they are, what country their from, ashamed that their natural gifts are able to secure them more wealth than others. Why be sorry?
I won't get political, but it wasn't the US just decided to go out one day and start liberating countries, and if you don't acknowledge the failings of the UN that paved the path up until this point then you need more help than I have time to give you.

To wish death on those 3 men for their deed puts you on the same boat as them, whether you can let yourself see it or not. You can justify it however you like as "punishment", but that does not make it just.

Duncan
QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Mar 18 2008, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i didnt do that. unlike you i know how to let things go. wink.gif


So your argument is now: "I can't be bothered to argue"?
Saoirse O'Shea
Duncan and Guitarman700,
I DON"T like repeating myself.

I will say this once more - stop turning this into a personal fight. No more warnings on this.

Tony
Guitarman700
QUOTE (tonymiro @ Mar 18 2008, 10:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Duncan and Guitarman700,
I DON"T like repeating myself.

I will say this once more - stop turning this into a personal fight. No more warnings on this.

Tony

im not turning this into a personal fight. i said my piece, now im done with this thread.
steve25
Duncan the word argue i don't think should be in anyones posts here. Of course everyone has different opinions here and i agree with certain parts from different people.

I don't think it's fair that you wish the man to die because he threw a puppy off a cliff or perhaps i should say as far as we know he threw a puppy off the cliff. I'm not totally convinced it's a real puppy but i guess at the moment it doesn't really matter.

This guy is fighting for your country i don't think what a lot of people are saying about him is far. On the other hand i agree that this dog was doing him no harm, it was causing him no threat so why kill it? I agree with a lot of what Goliath has said i think people are going to extremes a little here. I'm not all that bothered by it but i still don't think it's right.
Angelica
QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 17 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't trust people who are not disgust by this kind of thing. they may act fine under stable conditions, but you don't turn it on or off. If you are heartless towards animals, under the right circumstances, you will be the heartless towards your own species.


wink.gif
Completely agree.
MickeM
Up to one per thousand of the worlds population could suffer from emotional disturbances (counting diagnosis made and undiscovered), AS or whatever similar. These people just can't judge right from wrong without prior learning. Throwing a puppy off a cliff fake or not would imo show lack of empaty not being able to judge that both cases would upset people. By connecting himself with this act by being shown on film to me only tells me that he/they can't measure the vast negativity to their own person and their employer and they can't calculate on the cosequences.

If I were to take a guess this person is disturbed (as in is ill but without diagnosis)


Then it's not strange at all that people react to puppies, babies, children or other defenceless chreatures are killed. They can't defend themselves and should be left in peace. That we feel more for a puppy compared to a rat is that our brain judge what's cute which will add to the factor of "harmlessness", as well as it's a variable what appeals us when looking at the opposite sex, or same sex for that matter. What kind of cureves and particulars appeal us. So by nature we're programmed to think some things are cute (puppies), some things scare us (spiders) and some things are repulsive (rat).

And by nature, watching this video should raise emotions and empathy for the puppy. If now, well... that's not my problem.


Now dinner, then rehearsal with the band. Much more pleasant than this!
dusty
i can see that passions have been really stirred up by this topic and not unreasonably so either and as i have said previously i certainly hope that the video was a fake.

fake or not this video has created such a s**t storm that these guys will have to answer to thier superiors as they ave brought the uniform and thier country in to disgrace with thier behaviour (and this is not a charge that the military takes lightly).

but if you can please try and put your self in the shoes of an ordinary enlisted man in the forces for a couple of minutes.
as it has been for centuries these men sign up to serve thier countries (and the administation at the time) usually because there are no other opportunities available to them at home. so they sign up, get trained (usually minimal) get clothed and fed and paid (again usually minimal) then get sent out to fight somebody elses war.
when these guys get to the front lines they are probably the same people that they were when they joined and they will behave more or less as their mothers recognise them (all be it with a few habits and behaviours picked up from thier squad mates).

but after months on end after being shot at, blown up, watching thier mates being killed and other horrific situations that would keep the average citizen in the western world awake at night for most of their natural lives you could reasonably expect thier outlook on life to have adjusted somewhat.

so naturally what seemed funny to them at th time would be seen as horrific to the rest of us. but then again after spending time in the environment that they have you would start to see all life as cheap and see humour where the rest of the world has seen horror.

it is easy for us to sit at home and pass judgement on the actions of servicemen but if you think that this type of behaviour is new then think again it has gone on before and will continue to do so as long as humans are put in environments of extreme stress such as war, they will display behavoiurs such as this and more that likely be the same men that when thier time is done and they return home, kiss the wife, hug the kids and then take the family dog for a walk.

mellow.gif
Bogdan Radovic
This clip is just plain stupid and I honestly hope that its a fake! sad.gif
steve25
Was reading the comments of the vid earlier and people were saying they found sources of the guy who did it and admitted to doing it and said that it was a real dog that he didn't want to take it back to base with him. I'm yet to find this source though
SinoMan
I'm not on either side of the opinions, I just want to _INTELLIGENTLY_ discuss my opinion. So no flaming, OK?

What do you guys think hurts more - to fall off a cliff or to get eaten by a tiger? Animals eat each other in the wild daily. And no one seems to care. Why are you so concerned about this?
Trond Vold
Animals eat animals to survive, thats how nature works.
I dont see the natural order of things by throwing puppies of a cliff....
SinoMan
QUOTE (Trond Vold @ Mar 19 2008, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Animals eat animals to survive, thats how nature works.
I dont see the natural order of things by throwing puppies of a cliff....


And who exactly is hurt by the death of one cute dog(unless someone owns it - but that's a different story).

These guys are SOLDIERS, they are supposed to kill people. Shouldn't that bother you more?
Trond Vold
QUOTE (SinoMan @ Mar 19 2008, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And who exactly is hurt by the death of one cute dog(unless someone owns it - but that's a different story).

These guys are SOLDIERS, they are supposed to kill people. Shouldn't that bother you more?


But this thread isnt about soldiers killing people.. it's about the dog
mattacuk
Ahhh - this is obviously a very sensitive subject!

which is why im not touching it with a 20 foot pole wink.gif
SinoMan
QUOTE (Trond Vold @ Mar 19 2008, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But this thread isnt about soldiers killing people.. it's about the dog


Good point, you almost owned me now -.-

The question is: Why should we care about this dog? If it's real, the dog's dead already. And you're probably ain't gonna kick the asses of the soldiers, are you?
Trond Vold
QUOTE (SinoMan @ Mar 19 2008, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good point, you almost owned me now -.-

The question is: Why should we care about this dog? If it's real, the dog's dead already. And you're probably ain't gonna kick the asses of the soldiers, are you?



Why shouldnt we care about the dog?
I dont understand why some people get so aggressive because someone dont like seeing animals get killed for the sake of fun. (No, i dont like seeing people getting killed for fun either). Why should any of this happen at all?

No need to get hissy
Goliath
I think that people object to the senselessness of it more than the cruelty.

While "Why flip out about a relatively minor occurrence?" is a valid question "why throw a dog off a cliff?" is equally valid again supposing the video is real.
SinoMan
QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 19 2008, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that people object to the senselessness of it more than the cruelty.

While "Why flip out about a relatively minor occurrence?" is a valid question "why throw a dog off a cliff?" is equally valid again supposing the video is real.


That's prolly true. I have to admit you guys got me on this one.

But still, I think we people from the cities are oversensitive. Some one who grew up slaughtering chicken in a small village probably wouldn't care that much...
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