Full Version: Cycle 4 And Cycle 5
Pedja Simovic

Cycle 5 is used to determine keys with sharps. We start on C and always go up a perfect 5th. Thats our next key with one extra sharp. So C (no accidentals) up a perfect 5th gives us G major that has one accidental. Now regarding question 4, here is your answer : Trick is, we always have to alter 7th from minor to major so that we could get half step between it and the root. In practical terms, what is 7th of G ? F right? What do we have to do ? Make it sharper, so we do F to F#, F# is our sharp, and F# to G is half step away!!! Let me know if this explanation makes sense?

Here are the keys with sharps for you Matt:

C = no accidentals
G = F#, 1 sharp
D = F# and C#, 2 sharps
A = F#, C# and G# = 3 sharps
E = F#, C#, G#, D# = 4 sharps
B = F#,C#, G#, D#, A# = 5 sharps
F#= F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E# = 6 sharps
C#= F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B# = 7 sharps (all notes are sharp!).

So that is your Cycle 5 or keys with sharps.

Cycle 4 is used to determine keys with flats. We start on C and always go up a perfect 4th. That is our next key with one extra flat. So C (no accidentals) up a perfect 4th gives us F major that has one accidental (one flat). Now regarding question 4, here is your answer : Trick is, once we find the root, we go up another perfect 4th from it and since that interval is augmented 4th, we lower it and that is our original flat!!!

Let me put this into use so it is more clear to you.

We start on C , go up a perfect 4th , now we are in F! We know by now that F has one flat, problem is we don't know which one! Now as I said, go up a perfect 4th from F, there is your flat! F going up augmented 4th is B, so we have to make B into Bb for it to be perfect 4th from F. So F has 1 flat and it is Bb!

So from F major that has Bb, our next key becomes Bb with Eb flat, and our next key is then Eb with Ab flat etc.

Here is the Cycle 4 for you Matt:

C (no accidentals)
F = Bb = 1 flat
Bb = Bb and Eb = 2 flats
Eb = Bb, Eb, Ab= 3 flats
Ab= Bb, Eb, Ab,Dd, = 4 flats
Dd= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb= 5 flats
Gb= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb= 6 flats
Cb= Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb = 7 flats (all flats!)

Here is another tip for you Matt - Both cycle 4 and cycle 5 have 7 keys each! We have to take all 7 letter names and alter them, this is why we have to go through the cycle 7 times.

Hope this post was useful to you. I will post it also on my Theory and Harmony board for future reference.
Tolek
Ah, yes, the very basics. I´d like to add something:
You can use 5ths as well to find out the flats! Look: We have C. Go DOWN a 5th and you got F, the same as going UP. Then you have to remember only the Cycle 5.

Another hint. How to find out what is the key that has x sharps/flats? Let´s have a look at this example:
We have 4 sharps: F#, C#, G# and D#. Now, consider the last sharp (D#). Go up a minor 2nd and you have E which is the root of E Major which has 4 sharps.
There is a similar system with flats:
We have 2 flats: Bb and Eb. Now, consider the next to last flat (Bb). That´s the root of Bb Major which has 2 flats.

I hope this is useful.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 08:48 PM)
Ah, yes, the very basics. I´d like to add something:
You can use 5ths as well to find out the flats! Look: We have C. Go DOWN a 5th and you got F, the same as going UP. Then you have to remember only the Cycle 5.

Another hint. How to find out what is the key that has x sharps/flats? Let´s have a look at this example:
We have 4 sharps: F#, C#, G# and D#. Now, consider the last sharp (D#). Go up a minor 2nd and you have E which is the root of E Major which has 4 sharps.
There is a similar system with flats:
We have 2 flats: Bb and Eb. Now, consider the next to last flat (Bb). That´s the root of Bb Major which has 2 flats.

I hope this is useful.

Yes Tolek good additions. There are about 5 more ways how to approach this topic but I choose one only to make it easier for members that are not aware of this system yet to learn it this way first.
By the way, your method is same as mine, you were just going from behind (finding keys with existing signs instead of having key and then finding a sign!).
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:04 PM)
Yes Tolek good additions. There are about 5 more ways how to approach this topic but I choose one only to make it easier for members that are not aware of this system yet to learn it this way first.
By the way, your method is same as mind, you were just going from behind (finding keys with existing signs instead of having key and then finding a sign!).

Yes, that´s also useful. If you have a sheet of music and you want to find out the scale, you can apply this little trick.
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 09:05 PM)
Yes, that´s also useful. If you have a sheet of music and you want to find out the scale, you can apply this little trick.

Yes. Eventually they should all learn order of keys with sharps and flats, memorize all 14 of them and have no problem at all
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:07 PM)
Yes. Eventually they should all learn order of keys with sharps and flats, memorize all 14 of them and have no problem at all

That´s not necessary, in my opionion. If you are confronted with a lot of music, you´ll just simply know how many accidentals a scale has (at least the most frequent ones).

Btw, are you going to post something about the CAGED system?
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 09:12 PM)
That´s not necessary, in my opionion. If you are confronted with a lot of music, you´ll just simply know how many accidentals a scale has (at least the most frequent ones).

Btw, are you going to post something about the CAGED system?

Well I can't agree with you on that one. Especially if you had music high school exam for theory and harmony department in my town when you were 15-16 Lots of examples with interval and chord inversions as well as altering melody to fit specific key. Not to mention examples like name this scale, or how many sharps does this have, or trick questions... All for one hour and thirty minutes... I did it in 35 and entered as top placed on the list So I do think knowing this by memory helps, and it helps a lot because it becomes automatic. Theory should become automatic and locked in your brain so that you can forget about it and be creative

I will post on CAGED system couple of posts yes, but not tonight. If I continue with this pace on activities on my board, I will never finish my other things (lessons for GMC, assignments for MTP, lessons for my site etc). Just be patient, it will happen I promise
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:17 PM)
Well I can't agree with you on that one. Especially if you had music high school exam for theory and harmony department in my town when you were 15-16 Lots of examples with interval and chord inversions as well as altering melody to fit specific key. Not to mention examples like name this scale, or how many sharps does this have, or trick questions... All for one hour and thirty minutes... I did it in 35 and entered as top placed on the list So I do think knowing this by memory helps, and it helps a lot because it becomes automatic. Theory should become automatic and locked in your brain so that you can forget about it and be creative

Hm, that´s right, I didn´t think about this. However, I never learned the scales by heart. I only learned the accidentals and it was enough. Now, I can name a scale very quickly when the accidentals.

Anyhow, the main thing is to know the scales and how to apply them and how to be musical with them.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:17 PM)
I will post on CAGED system couple of posts yes, but not tonight. If I continue with this pace on activities on my board, I will never finish my other things (lessons for GMC, assignments for MTP, lessons for my site etc). Just be patient, it will happen I promise

Awesome! I´m learning the 5 positions of a major scale right now. I need to know it for the university audition.
Pedja Simovic
Cool Tolek, good luck with that audition for university!

I need to find software that can export good graphs. The ones I type in, like for CAGED shapes I need 5-6 frets tops, and I want to export just that. Wonder if I could do that in Guitar pro? Doing it in Photoshop is too much work, plus I don't have one on my new machine
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:25 PM)
Cool Tolek, good luck with that audition for university!

I need to find software that can export good graphs. The ones I type in, like for CAGED shapes I need 5-6 frets tops, and I want to export just that. Wonder if I could do that in Guitar pro? Doing it in Photoshop is too much work, plus I don't have one on my new machine

You can write the notes in GP and export as a .bmp or even .pdf file.

New machine? Lucky one!
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 09:35 PM)
You can write the notes in GP and export as a .bmp or even .pdf file.

New machine? Lucky one!

I already do that but for exercises. I haven't figured out how to do guitar fretboard and export just that!
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:37 PM)
I already do that but for exercises. I haven't figured out how to do guitar fretboard and export just that!

You mean the tabs?
If yes, then disable the musical notation by clicking on the track and unchecking "Standard Notation".
However, I think that doing scale patterns like some are in the GMC lessons is impossible with GP.

Did you see this already? http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/misc-less...tware-tutorial/
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 09:42 PM)
You mean the tabs?
If yes, then disable the musical notation by clicking on the track and unchecking "Standard Notation".
However, I think that doing scale patterns like some are in the GMC lessons is impossible with GP.

Did you see this already? http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/misc-less...tware-tutorial/

I meant for guitar graphs. I use scale tool and it is good to some extent. Check my lessons you will see what it does. However, I can't just tell it to give me 5th position A minor pentatonic (E shape) . This is kind of software I want
That tutorial I watched when I joined GMC. I do everything right until cropping part!
lcsdds
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 08:47 PM)
I meant for guitar graphs. I use scale tool and it is good to some extent. Check my lessons you will see what it does. However, I can't just tell it to give me 5th position A minor pentatonic (E shape) . This is kind of software I want
That tutorial I watched when I joined GMC. I do everything right until cropping part!

I downloaded the demo and it seemed very useful.....especially for someone like you who has a real need for it......
Tolek
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:47 PM)
I meant for guitar graphs. I use scale tool and it is good to some extent. Check my lessons you will see what it does. However, I can't just tell it to give me 5th position A minor pentatonic (E shape) . This is kind of software I want
That tutorial I watched when I joined GMC. I do everything right until cropping part!

Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 11 2009, 09:56 PM)

I downloaded the demo and it seemed very useful.....especially for someone like you who has a real need for it......

Monte I am downloading it right now. Will let you know how it goes, it looks awesome by the way! Thank you

QUOTE (Tolek @ Sep 11 2009, 09:56 PM)

No problem Tolek, Monte found a solution
lcsdds
QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 09:01 PM)
Monte I am downloading it right now. Will let you know how it goes, it looks awesome by the way! Thank you

No problem Tolek, Monte found a solution

Hope it works well for you Pedja.....\m/\m/
Pedja Simovic
QUOTE (lcsdds @ Sep 11 2009, 10:22 PM)
Hope it works well for you Pedja.....\m/\m/

Monte, this software is great! I will seriously consider upgrading it to full version. In the meanwhile I will look for some free website with scale and graph tools that I could turn into picture files and use them