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Todd Simpson
From the state that brought us the Columbine Tragedy, another nut job has lost it and shot folks in a movie theatre.

This happens here from time to time and it makes us all sad and sick. Some jerk gets all his guns together, loses his mind and kills everyone he can aim at. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families.

Saoirse O'Shea
Very true and very sad Todd not least as the news here are reporting that young children were hit in the shooting.
TreyDeschamp
It's sickening to believe that this could happen anymore.

Prayers to the victims and their families.
Ben Higgins
This was truly horrible.
VilleFIN
Latest news say that he had planted explosives at his house. Good that police found those out before explosion. Maybe he was trying suicide but failed. Crazy huh ?!
Sinisa Cekic
Yeah i saw news today,madness!! Another secret lunatic got his 5 minutes
Nihilist1
So far the news said that he shot 71 people. Its pretty crazy in the states sometimes. He even used Tear Gas just before the shooting dry.gif
JD_
Sad News, Thoughts are with the families of the fallen... Isn't this another example of ridiculous Gun Laws in the US? Nothing will change though...
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (JaxN4 @ Jul 21 2012, 03:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Isn't this another example of ridiculous Gun Laws in the US? Nothing will change though...


Nah, I don't think the law has any bearing on it if a man is that far gone that he's decided to shoot innocent people. His life had built up to the moment where he developed the intent to kill regardless of any laws. It's peoples intent that is the real danger.
JD_
QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 21 <a class=) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nah, I don't think the law has any bearing on it if a man is that far gone that he's decided to shoot innocent people. His life had built up to the moment where he developed the intent to kill regardless of any laws. It's peoples intent that is the real danger.



Valid Point Indeed Mate. But I still can't help thinking that if access to these weapons was alot harder, there may be less Fatalities.

But It doesn't help so many innocent people who lost their lives. Life is Precious. RIP
SpaseMoonkey
So far the news as listed AR-15 assault rifle, a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun, and a 40-caliber glock handgun, as the guns used in the evening and one 40-caliber glock was in the car also. Guns were bought in a Colorado store months before this, and the ammo was bought off the internet.

No word on getting into his apartment yet either.

I have no idea how people could do that, just a bunch of innocent people in a room trapped.


The US is full of crazy crap this week. Few days ago some band that opened up for Jeff Loomis beat the sound guy with a bat, threw chairs around the room hitting people, and was squirting lighter fluid everywhere...
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (JaxN4 @ Jul 21 2012, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Valid Point Indeed Mate. But I still can't help thinking that if access to these weapons was alot harder, there may be less Fatalities.


I think you're right too. I guess there's many contributing factors in things like this. I do agree that it shouldn't be so easy to get such weapons.
Mudbone
QUOTE (JaxN4 @ Jul 20 2012, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sad News, Thoughts are with the families of the fallen... Isn't this another example of ridiculous Gun Laws in the US? Nothing will change though...


Suicide bomb vests are illegal in Iraq, yet that has not stopped religious extremists from blowing themselves up in crowded markets. In Mexico, most guns are illegal, yet that has not stopped any of the gang violence. Strict gun laws didn't stop the shootings in Norway or the school shootings in Germany. Laws are only effective for people that respect them.

Also, isn't KILLING illegal?

There is a reason why these things happen in the US. There is something wrong with our culture and our society. Its really hard to pin it down to one or a few things, but everyone that lives or has lived in the US will know what I'm talking about. I'm going to attempt explain just a part of it with some broad generalizations.

The US is a dog-eat-dog world, and in someways, it seems like the wild west is still alive. Everybody is out to get their own. Also, because this is a highly individualist society, the sense of community isn't what it is in other countries. People become societal rejects for a variety of different reasons.

The culture in the US is very materialistic, and status is based on having things that really don't reflect on ones inner qualities. We HAVE to have a nice car, we have to be pretty, we have to be lean and ripped, and men have to have sex with as many women as possible. This is what the media constantly bombards us with every day. If you're lacking in any of these areas you're considered a loser.

In the US we breed attention whores and the mentality of self importance. In school, awards are given to all students that compete in a competition, even the kids that didn't win. Garbage men must now be called "sanitation technicians" because associating garbage men with garbage is too demeaning. All credit cards are now "platinum," because nobody wants to be seen with anything less. Reality TV can give anybody 15 minutes of fame.

So, what does this have to do with mass shootings? In almost every case, mass shootings are carried out by loners; guys that have no friends and a relatively small family network. Society has rejected these people for numerous reasons, but also conditioned them to be selfish. Plus, how can a person value human life when he or she has been conditioned to judge other people based on their material acquisitions? These guys are taking revenge on society, because they feel society has wronged them. But they are a product of society. Society has created these monsters.

We need to start valuing humans for their human qualities, such as love, compassion, and kindness. This is what makes humans human. Money and material possessions come and go, but what really matters is how caring we are for each other. The real value of a person is not whats in their wallet, but whats in their mind and whats in their heart.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 21 2012, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Suicide bomb vests are illegal in Iraq, yet that has not stopped religious extremists from blowing themselves up in crowded markets. In Mexico, most guns are illegal, yet that has not stopped any of the gang violence. Strict gun laws didn't stop the shootings in Norway or the school shootings in Germany. Laws are only effective for people that respect them.

Also, isn't KILLING illegal?

There is a reason why these things happen in the US. There is something wrong with our culture and our society. Its really hard to pin it down to one or a few things, but everyone that lives or has lived in the US will know what I'm talking about. I'm going to attempt explain just a part of it with some broad generalizations.

The US is a dog-eat-dog world, and in someways, it seems like the wild west is still alive. Everybody is out to get their own. Also, because this is a highly individualist society, the sense of community isn't what it is in other countries. People become societal rejects for a variety of different reasons.

The culture in the US is very materialistic, and status is based on having things that really don't reflect on ones inner qualities. We HAVE to have a nice car, we have to be pretty, we have to be lean and ripped, and men have to have sex with as many women as possible. This is what the media constantly bombards us with every day. If you're lacking in any of these areas you're considered a loser.

In the US we breed attention whores and the mentality of self importance. In school, awards are given to all students that compete in a competition, even the kids that didn't win. Garbage men must now be called "sanitation technicians" because associating garbage men with garbage is too demeaning. All credit cards are now "platinum," because nobody wants to be seen with anything less. Reality TV can give anybody 15 minutes of fame.

So, what does this have to do with mass shootings? In almost every case, mass shootings are carried out by loners; guys that have no friends and a relatively small family network. Society has rejected these people for numerous reasons, but also conditioned them to be selfish. Plus, how can a person value human life when he or she has been conditioned to judge other people based on their material acquisitions? These guys are taking revenge on society, because they feel society has wronged them. But they are a product of society. Society has created these monsters.

We need to start valuing humans for their human qualities, such as love, compassion, and kindness. This is what makes humans human. Money and material possessions come and go, but what really matters is how caring we are for each other. The real value of a person is not whats in their wallet, but whats in their mind and whats in their heart.


+1

That pretty much sums up the mentality everywhere I have lived in the USA. Granted, I have only lived in the Western US(with the exception of Eastern Canada), but it is what it is.

I can say that living in Ontario, Canada was very different, and a bit of an eye opener. After having grown up in Los Angeles and having to fight kids a lot to get by, I came to the conclusion that the USA might be the only developed country that is this inhospitable.
jstcrsn
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 21 2012, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Suicide bomb vests are illegal in Iraq, yet that has not stopped religious extremists from blowing themselves up in crowded markets. In Mexico, most guns are illegal, yet that has not stopped any of the gang violence. Strict gun laws didn't stop the shootings in Norway or the school shootings in Germany. Laws are only effective for people that respect them.

Also, isn't KILLING illegal?

There is a reason why these things happen in the US. There is something wrong with our culture and our society. Its really hard to pin it down to one or a few things, but everyone that lives or has lived in the US will know what I'm talking about. I'm going to attempt explain just a part of it with some broad generalizations.

The US is a dog-eat-dog world, and in someways, it seems like the wild west is still alive. Everybody is out to get their own. Also, because this is a highly individualist society, the sense of community isn't what it is in other countries. People become societal rejects for a variety of different reasons.

The culture in the US is very materialistic, and status is based on having things that really don't reflect on ones inner qualities. We HAVE to have a nice car, we have to be pretty, we have to be lean and ripped, and men have to have sex with as many women as possible. This is what the media constantly bombards us with every day. If you're lacking in any of these areas you're considered a loser.

In the US we breed attention whores and the mentality of self importance. In school, awards are given to all students that compete in a competition, even the kids that didn't win. Garbage men must now be called "sanitation technicians" because associating garbage men with garbage is too demeaning. All credit cards are now "platinum," because nobody wants to be seen with anything less. Reality TV can give anybody 15 minutes of fame.

So, what does this have to do with mass shootings? In almost every case, mass shootings are carried out by loners; guys that have no friends and a relatively small family network. Society has rejected these people for numerous reasons, but also conditioned them to be selfish. Plus, how can a person value human life when he or she has been conditioned to judge other people based on their material acquisitions? These guys are taking revenge on society, because they feel society has wronged them. But they are a product of society. Society has created these monsters.

We need to start valuing humans for their human qualities, such as love, compassion, and kindness. This is what makes humans human. Money and material possessions come and go, but what really matters is how caring we are for each other. The real value of a person is not whats in their wallet, but whats in their mind and whats in their heart.

just a note, you did mention it happening in other places, so it is not just the U. S., I agree with you and would like to add, the drug and violent culture in music, kids grow up idolizing these things http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/fl...rt-store-video/
Mudbone
QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 21 2012, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
just a note, you did mention it happening in other places, so it is not just the U. S., I agree with you and would like to add, the drug and violent culture in music, kids grow up idolizing these things http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/fl...rt-store-video/


It does happen in other countries, but usually its for political and/or religious reasons. Every now and then you do see loners and societal rejects lash out at society in other westernized countries, but not nearly at the same rate it happens in the US. Every country and society has its unique problems, and this is one of ours.

I think its important to distinguish between the different types of violent music. There is fantasy violence, like Manowar and Cannibal Corpse, and then there is the music that glorifies real life violence and thuggery, like all the different variations of Gangsta rap.

I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone listen to Manowar then be inspired to pick up a sword and slay a dragon, although that would be pretty freakin' cool if it did happen laugh.gif I also don't think I've ever heard of anyone sacrifice a virgin with a sharpened goat horn after listening to Cannibal Corpse. The vast majority of young people know these lyrics are dumb and comical, and thats if you can even understand the death metal songs.

Gangsta rap, on the other hand, glorifies the thug lifestyle. Its real, its obtainable, and many people in poverty stricken areas can relate to it at some level. What cracks me up (and also annoys the hell out of me) is when these kids dress like a thug, walk like a thug, and talk like a thug, but then get upset when they get treated like a thug mad.gif If I dressed like a rockstar, talked like a rockstar, and walked like a rockstar, I want to get treated like a rockstar! laugh.gif

QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 21 2012, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
+1

That pretty much sums up the mentality everywhere I have lived in the USA. Granted, I have only lived in the Western US(with the exception of Eastern Canada), but it is what it is.

I can say that living in Ontario, Canada was very different, and a bit of an eye opener. After having grown up in Los Angeles and having to fight kids a lot to get by, I came to the conclusion that the USA might be the only developed country that is this inhospitable.


You should visit some of the New England states like Vermont and New Hampshire, people up there are pretty nice. There is virtually no violent crime in those states, even though they have some of the most liberal gun laws in the country. In Vermont you don't need a permit to carry, and you can even be packing in a bar. They're also the least religious states in the country, go figure. I would consider living there but the winters suck and I'm just too much of a city slicker tongue.gif

My home state of Massachusetts however, is filled to the brim with what we affectionately call Massholes haha laugh.gif If you want to see some real freaks and geeks check out my hometown of Worcester. Dennis Leary is from Worcester, and he's a pretty good representation of what people up there are like ohmy.gif
JD_
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 <a class=) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Suicide bomb vests are illegal in Iraq, yet that has not stopped religious extremists from blowing themselves up in crowded markets. In Mexico, most guns are illegal, yet that has not stopped any of the gang violence. Strict gun laws didn't stop the shootings in Norway or the <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">school</a> shootings in Germany. Laws are only effective for people that respect them.

Also, isn't KILLING illegal?

There is a reason why these things happen in the US. There is something wrong with our culture and our society. Its really hard to pin it down to one or a few things, but everyone that lives or has lived in the US will know what I'm talking about. I'm going to attempt explain just a part of it with some broad generalizations.

The US is a dog-eat-dog world, and in someways, it seems like the wild west is still alive. Everybody is out to get their own. Also, because this is a highly individualist society, the sense of community isn't what it is in other countries. People become societal rejects for a variety of different reasons.

The culture in the US is <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">very</a> materialistic, and status is based on having things that really don't reflect on ones inner qualities. We HAVE to have a nice car, we have to be pretty, we have to be lean and ripped, and men have to have sex with as many women as possible. This is what the media constantly bombards us with every day. If you're lacking in any of these areas you're considered a loser.

In the US we breed attention whores and the mentality of self importance. In school, awards are given to all students that compete in a competition, even the kids that didn't win. Garbage men must now be called "sanitation technicians" because associating garbage men with garbage is too demeaning. All <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">credit</a> cards are now "platinum," because nobody wants to be seen with anything less. Reality TV can give anybody 15 minutes of fame.

So, what does this have to do with mass shootings? In almost every case, mass shootings are carried out by loners; guys that have no friends and a relatively small family network. Society has rejected these people for numerous reasons, but also conditioned them to be selfish. Plus, how can a person value human life when he or she has been conditioned to judge other people based on their material acquisitions? These guys are taking revenge on society, because they feel society has wronged them. But they are a product of society. Society has created these monsters.

We need to start valuing humans for their human qualities, such as love, compassion, and kindness. This is what makes humans human. Money and material possessions come and go, but what really matters is how caring we are for each other. The real value of a person is not whats in their wallet, but whats in their mind and whats in their heart.


Yes all valid points indeed. And the US does seem to be in their own world.

But do we really need to sell automatic weapons, assault rifles in a local store? That's all I'm saying
Nihilist1
QUOTE (JaxN4 @ Jul 22 2012, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes all valid points indeed. And the US does seem to be in their own world.

But do we really need to sell automatic weapons, assault rifles in a local store? That's all I'm saying


I don't think so. I prefer Bolt action rifles and semi-automatic weapons. I feel as if they require more skill. Plus, they make drive by shootings much harder.

However, you can actually convert some(if not all) semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapons fairly easily. The information and how to guides are all over the internet if you know where to look, so I don't think it will matter whether or not they are sold in shops.

However, on a much more humorous note(maybe only for those of us in the states):

The Uncreator
There is the argument too that if someone had a gun in theater it wouldnt have gone on as it did. If someone had a concealed weapons permit and was able to take the gunman down.

I will probably have a concealed permit at some time or another, it's almost completely logical to me. My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 22 2012, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.


1911? P220?
jstcrsn
QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 22 2012, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is the argument too that if someone had a gun in theater it wouldnt have gone on as it did. If someone had a concealed weapons permit and was able to take the gunman down.

I will probably have a concealed permit at some time or another, it's almost completely logical to me. My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.

I have mine, but I don't carry yet, I just wanted it in case i ever feel the need , I can just carry immediately
It took 4 moths to go thru the paperwork and register with the local law enforcment
VilleFIN
QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jul 22 2012, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is the argument too that if someone had a gun in theater it wouldnt have gone on as it did. If someone had a concealed weapons permit and was able to take the gunman down.

I will probably have a concealed permit at some time or another, it's almost completely logical to me. My father-in-law has a .45 on him at all times when he leaves the house.

You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (WeePee @ Jul 22 2012, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif


This is very true... the statistics for how much law enforcement officers actually miss, even at close range, is astounding. I can't remember the actual details but there was an incident I read about where the police surrounded a house where a guy was armed and causing some sort of trouble. He went outside and refused to drop his weapon, intending to opt for 'suicide by cop' - getting shot by the police. The police opened fire on the guy.

They didn't allow the news to be published that every single officer missed because it would have undermined the public's confidence.
Mudbone
Some people say more guns are the answer, others say less guns is the solution. They're both wrong. Everyone in that theater had the opportunity to be carrying a firearm, there was nothing legally stopping them from doing so. But here's the thing, most people, and many gun owners, myself included, don't want to be walking around all the time packing heat. If I'm out with a girlfriend to have a good time, I feel just having on my person kinda ruins the vibe, you know?

Plus its not comfortable, especially if its a service size pistol. I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif

Making guns illegal also won't work, especially in the US. There are MILLIONS of guns out there now. Making them illegal will only create a black market for them. That just means more noneffective government control, just like with drugs. Also, whats the government going to do, take every one's guns away? You know, these aren't incandescent light bulbs they would be confiscating, they're guns, and I can assure you many people will use them before they give them up blink.gif
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif


I love your stories. I swear they couldn't happen to anyone else !! And prune juice as well... good job you weren't passing by the ladies sanitary aisle !! laugh.gif
Mudbone
QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 22 2012, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is very true... the statistics for how much law enforcement officers actually miss, even at close range, is astounding. I can't remember the actual details but there was an incident I read about where the police surrounded a house where a guy was armed and causing some sort of trouble. He went outside and refused to drop his weapon, intending to opt for 'suicide by cop' - getting shot by the police. The police opened fire on the guy.

They didn't allow the news to be published that every single officer missed because it would have undermined the public's confidence.


As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards laugh.gif Of course this is with a full size pistol, he wouldn't be able to hit squat with a mouse gun at that range, which is what most people carry. If there was anybody in that theater was carrying, especially a mouse gun, it would have been ineffective. So in this particular case I think an armed citizen probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 22 2012, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I love your stories. I swear they couldn't happen to anyone else !! And prune juice as well... good job you weren't passing by the ladies sanitary aisle !! laugh.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif Yeah reading a box of tampons would've been really awkward, and would've made the situation even worse ohmy.gif This happened in an organic food store, so all the peace loving hippies would've completely lost their mind if they knew what was going on laugh.gif

QUOTE (WeePee @ Jul 22 2012, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean this:


As a European I have an opposite view.

What if there was someone with a gun. Imagine how hard is to pull the gun out, locate the guy and aim and shoot. While...there's smoke, no lights, people going everywhere and screaming. It would be hard even for a police or military man.

You would need to have lot of luck to get a clean shot. And wasn't he wearing bullet proof vest ?
Probably he/she (with a concealed weapon) would have ended up accidentally shooting someone else ?

Another person shooting there isn't going to help at all in that kinda situation.

No offence to anybody but Just saying...

smile.gif


Bullet proof vests don't work like they do in the movies. Getting shot while wearing a vest is like getting hit by a baseball bat in the chest. It can break ribs and knock you on your bum bum.

Guns have lasers on them, so shooting in the dark with smoke might have made it easier to acquire a target. Who knows?

This is all speculation of course, but you're right, in this type of situation, nobody knows how things will turn out. More guns probably wouldn't have helped much.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some people say more guns are the answer, others say less guns is the solution. They're both wrong. Everyone in that theater had the opportunity to be carrying a firearm, there was nothing legally stopping them from doing so. But here's the thing, most people, and many gun owners, myself included, don't want to be walking around all the time packing heat. If I'm out with a girlfriend to have a good time, I feel just having on my person kinda ruins the vibe, you know?

Plus its not comfortable, especially if its a service size pistol. I was in a supermarket once carrying it Mexican style and it slid down my pant leg and smacked the ground ohmy.gif Luckily it stayed in my pant leg, but I had to bend down and read of a bottle of prune juice for five minutes before the coast was clear and I could pick it up and conceal it again laugh.gif

Making guns illegal also won't work, especially in the US. There are MILLIONS of guns out there now. Making them illegal will only create a black market for them. That just means more noneffective government control, just like with drugs. Also, whats the government going to do, take every one's guns away? You know, these aren't incandescent light bulbs they would be confiscating, they're guns, and I can assure you many people will use them before they give them up blink.gif



Arabia is right. Even though I don't always feel comfortable in public, I really wouldn't want to carry a gun all the time. I carry a knife and a high grade multi - tool, but I have them for utility more than anything. However, I was in fencing for a long time, so I can use that knife if it is ever necessary.

Here in the states, people would go ape$#!+ if our second amendment was revoked, and I have to admit, I might be one of them. I see my gun as a device that I can use to protect my family if someone manages to break into my house. The cops do the best they can, but their average response time is 15 minutes. A lot can happen in that time.

QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards
Bullet proof vests don't work like they do in the movies. Getting shot while wearing a vest is like getting hit by a baseball bat in the chest. It can break ribs and knock you on your bum bum.

Guns have lasers on them, so shooting in the dark with smoke might have made it easier to acquire a target. Who knows?

This is all speculation of course, but you're right, in this type of situation, nobody knows how things will turn out. More guns probably wouldn't have helped much.


Most cops are out of shape and very terrible with their firearms. The standards here in the States are slipping.

If their was smoke in the room, I don't think a laser would have done well. You would have seen it reflected back at you more than anything. Right?

More guns wouldn't have helped. I don't think so, anyway.
Alex Feather
QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 20 2012, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From the state that brought us the Columbine Tragedy, another nut job has lost it and shot folks in a movie theatre.

This happens here from time to time and it makes us all sad and sick. Some jerk gets all his guns together, loses his mind and kills everyone he can aim at. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families.


It's crazy! Some people are insane! Freaking idiot! People just came to see a movie it's just so sad! You never know what to expect... Such a huge tragedy....
XJapan
The word Tragedy doesn't even properly describe this sought of incident,

I agree with Ben, when people are gonna go nuts and kill, they are going to do it,
Here in Australia we outlawed all automatic weapons after a similar incident, and we have very low gun related deaths.

I don't come from a big gun culture or the U.S so maybe I can't formulate a valid opinion on the matter, but i believe that everyone has the right to defend themselves, but you don't automatic weapons for self/home defense.
But in an alternate universe where the gun laws are stricter...this guy could of decided to BLOW up the movie theater as well, possibly killing the same amount of people or more, So i don't know.

I suppose the best you can do is pray that one day in the future people can learn to be at peace with each other, and the thought of even harming another human being or living thing would bring us all to tears.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 03:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But in an alternate universe where the gun laws are stricter...this guy could of decided to BLOW up the movie theater as well, possibly killing the same amount of people or more, So i don't know.


Yeah. After watching the news, we can all agree that he knew how to build explosives, so that is definitely plausible.
XJapan
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 23 2012, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah. After watching the news, we can all agree that he knew how to build explosives, so that is definitely plausible.


Its so crazy there are people in society like this! Didn't he come from an educated background as well? His father was a software engineer, his mother a nurse, and he had a PHD in neuroscience or something? (because you'd think someone with a highly educated background and a "good life" wouldn't even dream of doing something like this and throw it all away, killing others in the process)
Nihilist1
QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 06:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its so crazy there are people in society like this! Didn't he come from an educated background as well? His father was a software engineer, his mother a nurse, and he had a PHD in neuroscience or something? (because you'd think someone with a highly educated background and a "good life" wouldn't even dream of doing something like this and throw it all away, killing others in the process)


Not necessarily. How do you think Black Metal was started? Not to mention the killings in Norway that take place a bit more than a year ago. Although every country has its problems, Norway is a really lovely place so to speak. I have never been, but data and statistics indicate that the majority is incredibly happy and the schooling there is amazing. Not to mention the extremely low crime rates and all that jazz.

His upbringing had nothing to do with it. Once you become an adult and have the ability to make decisions for yourself, the only thing that should be studied is the individual. Not the media they digested or the way they were raised. Although some of that has bearing in a criminally insane individual, there are quite a few exceptions to the rule. That is why even in the black metal community, you get people who kill each other and maim children with an axe, but there are those of us who think that type of thing is incredibly distasteful.
XJapan
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 23 2012, 07:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not necessarily. How do you think Black Metal was started? Not to mention the killings in Norway that take place a bit more than a year ago. Although every country has its problems, Norway is a really lovely place so to speak. I have never been, but data and statistics indicate that the majority is incredibly happy and the schooling there is amazing. Not to mention the extremely low crime rates and all that jazz.

His upbringing had nothing to do with it. Once you become an adult and have the ability to make decisions for yourself, the only thing that should be studied is the individual. Not the media they digested or the way they were raised. Although some of that has bearing in a criminally insane individual, there are quite a few exceptions to the rule. That is why even in the black metal community, you get people who kill each other and maim children with an axe, but there are those of us who think that type of thing is incredibly distasteful.


That is very true, I do think the majority of people in this crazy world we live in are good people with just values, ya know, just the other day i was buying a sandwich and wasn't quite sure what I wanted so i was asking prices on things, and this lady comes up and goes "Don't take this as an offense, but here" took my hands and gave me 10 dollars!, and i said "no no take it back i can pay" and she goes "Its ok, have whatever you want, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter", she walked off carrying some flowers leaving me with a wide open face and 10 dollars, and its not like I go out dressed like a bum or "look poor" or anything like that either!

Whatever reasons led this man to kill innocent people is beyond my train of thought, but i hope he enjoys the rest of his life and the next in prison, if he doesn't get the death penalty (Does Colorado have the death penalty?)

I couldn't even think of a plausible excuse for what he has done
Nihilist1
QUOTE (XJapan @ Jul 23 2012, 07:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is very true, I do think the majority of people in this crazy world we live in are good people with just values, ya know, just the other day i was buying a sandwich and wasn't quite sure what I wanted so i was asking prices on things, and this lady comes up and goes "Don't take this as an offense, but here" took my hands and gave me 10 dollars!, and i said "no no take it back i can pay" and she goes "Its ok, have whatever you want, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter", she walked off carrying some flowers leaving me with a wide open face and 10 dollars, and its not like I go out dressed like a bum or "look poor" or anything like that either!

Whatever reasons led this man to kill innocent people is beyond my train of thought, but i hope he enjoys the rest of his life and the next in prison, if he doesn't get the death penalty (Does Colorado have the death penalty?)

I couldn't even think of a plausible excuse for what he has done


Colorado is a hippie state, so I doubt they have the death penalty wink.gif
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (Mudbone @ Jul 22 2012, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As far as I know, cops only train with their service pistol once a month, and the requirements aren't that strict. This is hardly enough to become proficient with a firearm. I have a friend that goes shooting every week and he can shoot five bowling pins in 3 seconds at 25 yards laugh.gif Of course this is with a full size pistol, he wouldn't be able to hit squat with a mouse gun at that range, which is what most people carry. If there was anybody in that theater was carrying, especially a mouse gun, it would have been ineffective. So in this particular case I think an armed citizen probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.


It's quite surprising when you discover that a lot of the 'enforcement' side of things of being a cop aren't actually compulsory training, like unarmed combat or anything. A cop has to take it unto himself to get any extra training he might need. So I can believe that what you mentioned.

However, what I'm getting at is regardless of an individuals skill level, that all goes out of the window in the field where the sudden adrenaline dump renders fine motor reactions useless and the time to calmly set up a shot with no immediate threat just isn't there. Even snipers who are the top of their game have to deal with a completely different scenario in situations where there's chaos, civilians, smoke etc.. I'm not saying people can't perform under pressure.. but the amount that can is very, very small.
Todd Simpson
Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 24 2012, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.

Speaking of the tether being cut, I saw a picture from Ola Englund on facebook where he had a new Tatoo. It also seemed clear that he had "track marks" and several posts were telling him "get clean"(he pulled the pic later). When folks go on the road, and leave their normal support system, sometimes bad things can happen. Not to say, if you go on the road, you'll become a junkie, anymore than if you buy a gun, you'll go nuts and shoot people. Just saying it's important to stay grounded and connected and sane.


Damn. It sucks that he has become a junkie.
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 24 2012, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some great replies on this very saddening thread. As was mentioned, last year there was a massacre in Norway where 77 people were shot. Norway has very, very, strict Gun control laws. FAR stricter that the U.S. and yet, this nut job gets all these guns together and kills innocent people for over an hour before anybody stops him. So the idea that gun control laws can stop crazy people is wishful thinking. sad.gif

Also, I hate to say it but there is something to the idea that cultural pressure here can drive folks a bit crazy all by itself and without a strong support system, folks that isolate themselves go "postal" with shocking frequency. Our friends/families/fellow musicians are often the tether that keep us sane/from doing stupid crap. When that tether is cut, bad things can happen.

Speaking of the tether being cut, I saw a picture from Ola Englund on facebook where he had a new Tatoo. It also seemed clear that he had "track marks" and several posts were telling him "get clean"(he pulled the pic later). When folks go on the road, and leave their normal support system, sometimes bad things can happen. Not to say, if you go on the road, you'll become a junkie, anymore than if you buy a gun, you'll go nuts and shoot people. Just saying it's important to stay grounded and connected and sane.


Very sensible observations here, Todd. I also believe that a lot of psychological problems arise because of the pressure of modern day living. There's so many more social pressures and external stimuli that can drive us nuts. We are simple beings at our core.. hunt, gather, sleep, procreate etc..

I also believe that people are not born good or bad or whatever. There's always contributing factors. Of course, mental disabilities or illnesses are a factor but let's take them out of the equation for a minute. Environment whilst we're growing up is a massive influence on our psyche and behavioural patterns. We've always gotta start there. Whatever people become is a direct result of what gets put in. It also depends on how the individual deals with the experiences and info that they amass during their life and how they channel it. If people's minds are fed with s*** and garbage then how can we expect them to have a healthy mind ? Unless they have the tools to purge themselves of all negative influence.. but how many of us were taught these things ? Do they teach this in school ? Of course not. We've gotta find it out as we go along. If we're lucky enough to have a fairly good environment around us with access to good information that can educate ourselves then we can often deal with the negative bombardment that imprisons so many people. Without a good support system around you though, and with nothing better to feed on than the negative environment you're in, how do you stand a chance ?

Does anybody kind of know what I mean or am I going a bit avant garde ? tongue.gif
Nihilist1
QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 24 2012, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Very sensible observations here, Todd. I also believe that a lot of psychological problems arise because of the pressure of modern day living. There's so many more social pressures and external stimuli that can drive us nuts. We are simple beings at our core.. hunt, gather, sleep, procreate etc..

I also believe that people are not born good or bad or whatever. There's always contributing factors. Of course, mental disabilities or illnesses are a factor but let's take them out of the equation for a minute. Environment whilst we're growing up is a massive influence on our psyche and behavioural patterns. We've always gotta start there. Whatever people become is a direct result of what gets put in. It also depends on how the individual deals with the experiences and info that they amass during their life and how they channel it. If people's minds are fed with s*** and garbage then how can we expect them to have a healthy mind ? Unless they have the tools to purge themselves of all negative influence.. but how many of us were taught these things ? Do they teach this in school ? Of course not. We've gotta find it out as we go along. If we're lucky enough to have a fairly good environment around us with access to good information that can educate ourselves then we can often deal with the negative bombardment that imprisons so many people. Without a good support system around you though, and with nothing better to feed on than the negative environment you're in, how do you stand a chance ?

Does anybody kind of know what I mean or am I going a bit avant garde ? tongue.gif


I know exactly what you mean. I agree wholeheartedly. That was part of why I shifted toward become a bit more environmentally friendly. Whenever I am back in nature I feel whole.

Who knows, I might buy myself a farmhouse out near a forest and stream someday and survive off the land. That is kind of a dream of mine. I could even be self - sustaining and get some solar panels in order to sell energy back to the electric company.
Ben Higgins
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 24 2012, 09:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who knows, I might buy myself a farmhouse out near a forest and stream someday and survive off the land.


I just know that would feel so good.. no modern crap and unimportant stress to worry about ! smile.gif
Nihilist1
QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jul 24 2012, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just know that would feel so good.. no modern crap and unimportant stress to worry about ! smile.gif


Well, I would still be stressed out about my crops, but I know which bugs I can use as an insect deterrent and which birds I can house for the same reasons. I can make the necessary precautions so I can keep up the tradition of organic farming.
Saoirse O'Shea
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 24 2012, 09:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...

Who knows, I might buy myself a farmhouse out near a forest and stream someday and survive off the land. That is kind of a dream of mine. I could even be self - sustaining and get some solar panels in order to sell energy back to the electric company.


Sound's a little like Thoreau smile.gif.

For what it's worth we did some of this when we moved to Spain some years back albeit that we're not close to 100% self-sufficient. We looked in to photovoltaic solar but it was a non-starter for us as the purchase cost was very steep and at the time there were no grants. (It was something like 60k Euros.)

The recent economic crisis in Spain has lead a lot of people in Andalucia to go back to their small holdings/huertas because many haven't been paid in months.
Nihilist1
QUOTE (tonymiro @ Jul 24 2012, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sound's a little like Thoreau smile.gif.

For what it's worth we did some of this when we moved to Spain some years back albeit that we're not close to 100% self-sufficient. We looked in to photovoltaic solar but it was a non-starter for us as the purchase cost was very steep and at the time there were no grants. (It was something like 60k Euros.)

The recent economic crisis in Spain has lead a lot of people in Andalucia to go back to their small holdings/huertas because many haven't been paid in months.


I have been seeing a lot of that in the news. I actually thought about you today as well when I was watching Al Jazeera(I promise it is less creepy than it sounds). How are you and your family doing? I hope you are all doing well.
Saoirse O'Shea
QUOTE (Nihilist1 @ Jul 24 2012, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have been seeing a lot of that in the news. I actually thought about you today as well when I was watching Al Jazeera(I promise it is less creepy than it sounds). How are you and your family doing? I hope you are all doing well.


We're ok thanks smile.gif.

Was it the news about Valencia and Murcia (two of the main Spanish autonimous regions) who have declared bankruptcy this week?

We worry that Andalucia may not be far behind - we have a friend in the fire brigade and he hasn't been paid at all for 4 months. Jerez de la Frontera, one of our big main cities, is officially bankrupt and cannot pay any of its employees and it looks like several other big cities are on the brink.

We're lucky to be quite insulated from much of the economic crisis directly as we have no mortgage. So we are lucky enough to at least have a roof over our heads whatever happens but we have friends who have lost their homes and jobs. It's horrid to see people you know lose pretty much everything they have worked years for. In Andalucia we also talk about the 'lost generation' meaning the 50% of kids round here who are unemployed and may never ever be able to get a job. A lot of them have kind of given up and perhaps because of it the regional suicide rate has quadrupled.

I just hope things have improved before my daughter needs to go out to work...
Gitarrero
Things in Spain are pretty dramatic at the moment.
In Germany, it's the other way round...we are in need of engineers but the companies rarely find any.
So a month ago, 100 engineers from Spain came to Germany (Villingen-Schwenningen to be precise, 20 km south of Rottweil) and met with companies to get a job here. I was involved in the whole planning process. Both the engineers and the companies were quite happy afterwards and both sides are sure that about 20% of these 100 engineers will be hired to work in Germany.
I close friend of mine is from Spain and moved here a few years ago because there was no chance for her to find work in Spain.
I'm curious to see how many of them will actually take a job in Germany and stay for a longer period of time (winter in Germany is not very pleasant for most spanish folks, to say the least...)

Christian
Saoirse O'Shea
QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jul 24 2012, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...
So a month ago, 100 engineers from Spain came to Germany (Villingen-Schwenningen to be precise, 20 km south of Rottweil) and met with companies to get a job here.
...
I'm curious to see how many of them will actually take a job in Germany and stay for a longer period of time (winter in Germany is not very pleasant for most spanish folks, to say the least...)

Christian


I was talking with a neighbour recently who's about 78 yrs old. When he was in his 20s he went to work in one of the car plants in Germany and his cousin did the same but for Fiat in Italy because there was no work here. He was comparing things now with then. He thinks things are a bit better in Spain now because people aren't being killed by the government...

The job situation here though is bad. A friend's daughter has just moved back home from Madrid. The daughter is 29 years old, has an MSc in Finance and is fluent in Spanish, Italian and English. For the last couple of years she was a 'trainee' accountant and she was paid 650 Euros a month - her rent was 500 euros a month so her parents gave her money to live on. This month the company 'let her go' with no warning citing just cause under the recent labour reform bill. Yesterday I met my accountant and she suggested again that I 'let go' my assistant for the same reason. I told her that I'd get a new accountant first.
Mudbone
QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jul 24 2012, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Things in Spain are pretty dramatic at the moment.
In Germany, it's the other way round...we are in need of engineers but the companies rarely find any.

Christian


Really? I graduate with an engineering degree next year. I wouldn't object to living in Germany wink.gif
Gitarrero
Just learn some german and come over biggrin.gif
It's true, german economy needs way more engineers in the future.
And you can always count on my help, I've got some good contacts to companies that hire engineers smile.gif
Yash
QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jul 24 2012, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just learn some german and come over biggrin.gif
It's true, german economy needs way more engineers in the future.
And you can always count on my help, I've got some good contacts to companies that hire engineers smile.gif


And there are like millions of jobless engineers here in India tongue.gif tongue.gif Seriously, no kidding
Mudbone
QUOTE (Gitarrero @ Jul 24 2012, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just learn some german and come over biggrin.gif
It's true, german economy needs way more engineers in the future.
And you can always count on my help, I've got some good contacts to companies that hire engineers smile.gif


Thanks bro, much appreciated biggrin.gif Now I just have to polish up my German and whip out my Lederhosen laugh.gif
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