From time to time we need to review the REC grading standards - just like we did two years ago:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=48320

It's time again for instructors to get a little bit stricter with their grading. The goal with the REC grades is obviously not to make our students happy for the day, but rather have you become fantastic guitarists over time.

I am posting this in case some of you wonder where this change is coming from.

Just a thought and excuse me if I'm interfering. Would it be a good idea to allow instructors to give half points? Sometimes you can get three 7s then improve but still only get three 7s because you're not quite an 8 and you need an average of 7.5 to pass. I 100% don't agree with false praise but I think it would be nice to see a "very nearly there" factor of you were only "nearly there" last time.

Cheers and sorry if I'm putting my nose in where it shouldn't be

Hello Kris,
I am 100% with you. A REC level should be worth something! No question.

If I want to pass the tests for the drivers license it is the very same. But no one would expect a beginners driver to be as good as someone who has been driving for years. So a REC take from a part time beginner trying hard a lesson for many weeks will never ever get the level played by an highly sklilled talanted professinal guitar player (I should have simply said GREAT) like all our instructors are.
So that is just the view from the other side

And I would not disrespect the value of an justified praise. It is a great kick in motivation for future challanges too.

Thanks much,
Tom

I pretty much agree with both of you. Positive feedback and encouragement is a key factor to stay motivated, especially in the beginning.

I still think that the grades given need to follow general standards, in order for us not to devaluate the REC program. The grades given need to relate to the level of the lesson and not to the level of the student.

Having said this, I think the things you pointed out must clearly be expressed by the instructor in text. Ie "even though I can't give you passing grade on this third attempt - the amount of progress you have made is very impressive (...)"

Did I get you right?

Yes, I would sign every word you said!

I don't have as much REC experience as everyone else but one thing that I always noticed would be what Phil mentioned:

Where it is said that we have improved but the score remains the same.

Like take one was a 7, and then on take two someone would say "definitely better than the last take" but still given a 7.

Now I wouldn't want to be given an 8 and then pass a lesson I shouldn't have but I do agree that there should maybe be half points or something.

I'd rather be given a 6, that way when I post another take an show improvement I can at least be given a 7 - so although I didn't pass I can at least see that my score went higher.

I guess it's just a motivational thing.

Yes I agree completely. It just needs to be remembered, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or patronizing, that a student learning a level 3 lesson is never going to execute the lesson as good as the instructor.

Hey maybe that would be good, once a student has reached a level above 3, they have to select a previous REC and re play it to see how much they have improved and get re accessed.

Cheers

Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.

The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.

Exactly

like a 5/10 doesn't mean that the take was garbage or anything, it's just giving room for improvement!

And the ability to pay off instructors to give you a higher score will boost revenue for GMC!

Hahaha totally kidding

I'm happy to read this announcement From my point of view if we compare our takes with the original takes made by instructors I don't think that anybody deserve to get 10. Nobody can't play identically as an instructor because then we would not be students

I have a question because I'm very curious. How will be graded this time a lesson which is played with all the details from original lesson made by instructor?
I will be honest and I will say that I care about what grade I get in the same way how I pay attention to learn and play every tiny detail from a lesson. In my mentoring, until to post my take in REC, if I forget/skip to play a detail from a lesson it means to remake again the take.
Don't get me wrong, if I make mistakes it's not a problem if I will get a low grade. My goal is just to make the things how perfectly I can, to pass all the lessons and start to learn new things

That is a good idea. I was sometimes wondering why instructors always used 7 to tell that the rec isn't good and 8 or more if it succeeded.
I understand why... it's difficult to be strict and it seems unfriendly. But we are here to make progress ! For me, the most important is your comments that are really helpful !

If one of my next RECs is bad, I hope that you'll use a 3,4 or 5. I'm sure that the comments will help more than the notes.

But I have a question. I think that you don't have the same way to grade if the lesson is of difficulty 1,2,3,4,... isn't it ? And when a beginner intents a lesson of diffulty 3 and another one more experienced intents the same lesson ? Is there a difference or you judge only on the lesson's difficulty ?

I was trying to write a post but...I would be too long I hope my not enough descent english will not make things to be misunderstood

Who told you this?

In the short run (read weeks) you are right, but if we are speaking about months of serious practice it is doable.

Either way by giving the student a high grade after just a couple of weeks before you are close to nailing the take, instructors would be sending out the wrong message. They would in fact be confirming what you just said - ie 'you'll never get this down anyway'.

Hopefully you will forgive me if I sound a little harsh here, I am doing my best to get my point through



I think it should be a 10/10. In fact I don't even think all details must be down for that grade - as you said it's almost impossible (for pro players as well).

But the important stuff that affects the 'musical enjoyability' of the take must be there.



Exactly, this makes perfect sense to me!

Many wise words, Darius!

I think you make some excellent points - especially the part of moving on to something else and coming back to it later - I feel like we've all done this whether with lessons or songs, and we are often surprised at how much improvement has been made just by taking some time away from it.

Thank you Darius,

That was a brilliant video. I actually found it very inspiring (even though I missed 12:03 of my timing practise ).

Personally I have always thought that a fail is a 7 but could mean a "hidden" 4, and I always though that it was done for the "feel good factor" for the student

I would rather get a 1, then a month later a 2, then a 3 etc, for me this would be much better than getting a 7 for 7 months then getting an 8. It wouldn't feel like banging my head against a wall and thinking "what do I have to do to get that one extra point??????" It would, in my opinion, be more encouraging than persistent 7s

Much much better and thank you for taking the time to give such an eloquent explanation.

Cheers buddy

Excellent points here!

I def agree with the fact that because we are a community, it is harder to give a realistic grade. It can feel like insulting your mum.

And indeed excellent point about returning to an old lesson, that's how its always been for me. I bang my head against the wall and almost bleed to death without succeeding. When I come back to that thing in a couple of months it miraculously works!

It's great we get discuss this thoroughly. I think we can pause grading just for now until we have had a chance to digest and finish this discussion.

It's nice that you have been willing to discuss this with students. Thank you.

There is another side of the coin too. As a student I don't like to stop a lesson that an instructor has given me, I feel that I am letting them down so I stick at it even if my heart isn't into it just to show that I am serious and don't want to be like an impatient kid. I hope this makes sense.

IT's good to stick to the lesson for how long you can handle. I only meant you have to be prepare to sometimes decide to abandon it if you reach one point and can't go anyfurther no matter how much you practice

I agree but sometimes it can be demoralising and if the music in the lesson isn't really your cup of tea it makes it harder to persist. I had it recently with Gab's Fu Manchu lesson. I just couldn't get past a certain bar and I actually found myself regressing. I felt awful asking Gab if I could try something else

Thanks again.

Gab is a very wise person I do think he would complain on this - it's only about the arguments you point when trying to leave the lesson. Even if You won't finish it, it's sure something from it will profit in your playing Ask Monica

Sorry, can you please explain this, I don't understand. Maybe something lost in translation

Sorry...tried to write too fast

I think he wouldn't complain on your idea to abandon a lesson as long, as your arguments would be valid

@: Darek - Great video, You have right with all you said. Actually we had this discussion about REC section two weeks ago. I remember that I said to you that I would love even a separately REC section where I can put my takes for a real grading. Seems that my wish became true
It's a change for both parts students/instructors. I personally hardly wait to put my takes in REC

@: Phil I cried two weeks (I'm not kidding) because I had to quit at a lesson (Hybrid Blues) because I didn't was able to play very fast the last 10 seconds. I can't say in words how much I worked with Darek for that lesson and to learn every tiny detail. For me was a huge tragedy because was my dream to finish a 6 level lesson. I was disappointed by me and I will never forgive myself until I will not finish that lesson.
But... it was the moment to make a pause from that lesson because I was so stressed that I start to not be able to compose something. I have the luck that Darek knows me very well, stopped me and explained me how to see the things. He put me to work at another lesson.
Guess what, I realized that all I learned from that hard lesson are very good fixed in my mind and hands. Also I already apply those things in my normal playing. I swear, the lesson that I love very much and changed completely my playing is exactly the lesson that I wasn't able to finish it. I learned more technical stuff and I catch a huge confidence in playing things that in the past I thought there are very hard to play.
To work at Hybrid Blues was the best thing that I ever made even if i didn't finished the lesson

Ahh. Got it. Thanks




Thanks Monica,

That has inspired me to have more tenacity.

Cheers

Phil

My general thinking is to always prioritise what is fun / stimulating - in other I words I move on when I get bored with whatever I am practicing/learning. Because I know that as long as I spend time with the guitar, I will be progressing.

However there are many exceptions to this. And personally I get obsessed with things I don't master. So this actually makes it enjoyable for me to persist.

However if you are just starting out you may not realise the purpose of persisting with some uninspiring/boring exercises.

So my advice would be to play safe - and try to do a little bit of that kind of stuff - but always make make sure the majority of your practicing time is spent playing/practicing things you enjoy.

So to apply this thinking to the REC discussion, you could revisit old REC lessons once in a while (or maybe for 10-15 minutes before you start practicing a new lesson). However - banging your head against an old REC lesson which you are sick to death of - is not a fruitful thing to do IMO.

Agreed but imagine the satisfaction of going back to something you struggled with and finding it pretty simple. We don't really notice ourselves improving just as a child doesn't really notice themselves getting taller. If we played something with ease that used to be hard a few months ago, that would really show in real terms how much you have improved.

On your obsession thing, I too get obsessed and sometimes my time has run out and I've been trying to nail the same four bars for 90 minutes

Cheers

Hehe and its worth it, because you learn so much more than just the licks. The timing, feel, execution, details (etc etc) - can be applied to anything you play onwards. That is why it is so rewarding to spend a lot of time with just a short section of music.

Hi!
Totally agree with this changes in the rec zone! I think rec program works if it's totally objective and stricted.
I had some rec takes aproved but not really nailed
Ok but let's gonna talk abut safe zones in guitar masterclass, Sometimes students don't wanna be grade, only share his Music and i see instructors making apointments to improve the Music but this can be really intimidating to beginers to share his music. I really wants to see lot of people sharing his Music here just for fun.
It's great to have feedback of a instructor but it shouldn't be necesary all the time, more studens interaction will be great!
Only and idea




Thanks

I believe REC is all about challenging yourself and getting pro advice from our instructors. A failed lesson is only a "fail" if you learn nothing from your mistakes, as much as a "pass" would mean nothing if you didn't learn to achieve it.

Having said that, hope to see more and more REC takes than ever, no matter the grades, you will be getting better and better.

Just watched that video again, brilliant, puts me at ease about posting. Would it be annoying to judges if we posted a REC knowing that it's not good enough to pass but in order to get extra opinions to those from our mentor? I've always waited until my mentor (Gab, or before that Cosmin) told me to try it in the REC as it may pass. I would worry about offending my mentor if I posted without Gab saying to do it, I wouldn't want him to think I did not value his opinion. I hope this makes sense and you understand where I am coming from.

Cheers

Agreed - that's a different kind of feedback but its also needed. Do you have any suggestion on how we can get more students to submit their recordings (outside of REC board)?



Wise words Fran, that is the whole purpose of REC. The grade is of little importance, its what you take with you that matters.



I think it's up to the student to decide when to submit to REC, ie when you feel it will be beneficial for you. Perhaps you are stuck, feeling uninspired, need a second opinion etc. I don't think Gab would mind.

Don't get me wrong, nobody has ever told me NOT to post to REC, I've just posted and posted to my thread until they've eventually said "I think you should post to the REC"

Hi guys! Interesting discussion here. About the REC grading, I've been thinking on a new approach in order to decide the grade that I'll give to the takes. Kris send me some old grading guidelines that included this topics:

1, Rhythm placement: Overall ability to play in rhythm and keep a steady tempo. This aspect should take into consideration the groove factor of certain lessons such as topics involving shuffle or swing type of rhythm.

2. Cleanness: The cleanness factor evaluates the student's ability to play something with clarity and precision. This is indicative of the overall level of playing as well as the amount of practice of this particular lesson

3. Feel: The feel factor determines if the student shows comfort in the chosen musical piece. Several factors are included in the feel criteria such as rhythm placement, posture and overall lesson execution.

4. Posture: Posture determines if the student is holding the instrument correctly and shows comfort while playing. This criteria should of course take into account the difficulty of the lesson.

5. Sound: The sound factor will grade the student's tone and ability to play a piece with a similar type of sound. This section will not give advantage to students with more expensive gear, it is more of a general way to see if you can chose an appropriate tone to the lesson you're working on.

Each of these topics mean 2/10 of the total grade, and I'll include: 0, 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2. The final grade will be the sum of everything. If I get a "x.5" I'll go to the closer low number. For example if the sum of everything is 5.5, my grade will be 5.

I'll do this internally, I won't publish this method and individual concepts grades every time I evaluate a take but I wanted to share with you my new approach.

What do you think?

Hi GMC

I completely agree with this decision.
The grade should not be the objective.
Lessons can learn so much . It 'll be a shame to rush through , the note should not be the objective.
Sometimes some instructors are very severe on details and sometimes they are so kind .
Keep in mind the progress of the guitarist.

You should not make any difference between the GMC's subscriber .
Consider also that the lessons are sometimes underestimated ....
Some have a Level 4 are harder than 5 levels ...

Thank you to all the teachers for their time, their advice, their beautiful music and thank you for sharing ....

I love GMC





Hi Gab, thank you for this clear language.

Great concept
All these elements together which is mportant in serious take.
Why not show on the vote board they 5 elements with their grade ?

This concept should be a new basis for all instructors.

Sometimes the instructors explain their rating .
It is not easy to understand English because the instructors are from various countries
and it is not always correct in expression.

The 5 elements help us understand where we are good or less good.....

I think the five elements and the total being displayed is a superb idea

yes, the grade will include comments as always with feedback to explain which elements that need work to improve the take and reach a higher grade, and ideas on how to work them.

Hi Guys, I think the rec greading tweaks are a good idea. It makes the grading more clear and if it includes the five elements + grading it makes it even more clear

If you wish to post a REC take, then just go ahead and do it!
Guitar should be fun, learning should be fun.

If REC makes you happy, whatever the reason, go for it (showing your playing, climbing the ladders, getting instructors feedback...)

You have nothing to lose and lots to learn. Not just playing but also about tone, video editing etc.

Have FUN.

Great, thanks for that, as I said to Gab in my personal thread, I thought REC was purely like an exam, you only entered if you thought you had a chance of passing. Now I realise it is there for assessment. I will start posting more regularly, so long as I have the whole piece under my fingers in one way or another. I don't care if I get a 1, I'll just try for a 2, then a 3 etc etc etc

Thanks everyone, I feel liberated and inspired.

Let's do this

Hello everyone after another long break of mine!

As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...

I didn't like the old system because:

I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.

I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.

What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking

After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.


With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.


Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.

Very interesting. Maybe there should be a grading system rather than pass or fail. D pass = 5 points, C = 6, B = 7, A = 8 A+ =9, A* =10. It could be said that you can move on to another lesson with a pass BUT not recommended until you get a B. I put the A at 8 because in Darius's video he said 8 is very very good, 9 and 10 are very special.

Is all food for thought for the admin

Cheers

Phil

fully agree with you Marek and Phil. After you have been working at a lesson at your level (!) for a long time (!) it is very frustrating if you do not pass and will not add any motivation. At least not in my case.

E.g. I have been working on 5 string barre chord lesson for 2 month by next weekend. I thing I can record a decent take now but I do not know if that will pass under the new requirements. So I will NOT post it at REC. The feedback for me as a beginner that worked hard 30min/day over 2 month on an adequate lesson (level2) and cannot get it done would be devastating.
It would tell me there is something VERY wrong, either with the lesson, my learning process or me. And I would think its me as the lesson and my mentoring are great.

Also the expectation " to be as good as the instructor" that was shown here in the thread is not understandable for me.
REC is not for REC itself - its for progress of students.

I really like the REC program, it's one of my favorite parts of GMC. I've submitted takes which, after reading the instructor's feedback, shouldn't have passed. When I submitted them I may have thought they were great (as Darius said), but it took someone with more experience to show me the details I missed. I can only speak for myself, but my feelings would not be hurt to hear constructive and supportive feedback despite a failing grade.

The only issue I see with that is that there is vibrato in virtually every lesson, and as Darius said, it takes a LONG time to develop. Will the result be that beginner/intermediate players will never be able to achieve a passing grade because of underdeveloped vibrato?

I've mostly used the REC system as a milestone to help me decide when to "move on". A take may have issues, but when I've mastered it to the point that I should work on material that is more challenging overall. It doesn't seem productive to continue with a lesson which has just one sticking point when I can approach fresh material which has multiple areas to improve. I've struggled with recognizing that moment in the past, but I'm not sure what the answer is because I'm here to learn HOW to learn the guitar as much as a specific technique, etc...

I'd also find it really valuable for future lessons to have a bit more detail about the tones used. For example, a gear list isn't really that useful. I use amp modelling so for me amp head, cabinet, mic placement, EQ settings, and effects chain would be very useful. It would help me develop my ear for tones if I could match what I'm listening to with at least a brief description.

Marek this is excellent feedback, some key points here are:

* failing grades don't encourage

* Building a list of passing REC takes does encourage

After all the goal is both to guide/help you towards a great take, but also to help you remain inspired every day (that's the only way to spend a lot of time with the instrument).

What do other think about this?

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=713125

Yes that is good feedback. One option is also to somehow reflect the grade level (D,C,B etc) in the badge level. Although I don't think complicating things is a good idea (and the badge level system seems to be working pretty well).

The more opinions we get, the easier it is to actually make an informed change! After all, it's been a long time since instructors were beginners. Lowering the passmark level sounds cool to me - but it would be cool to hear what others think.

Lowering the pass grade is good but it needs to be a low level pass imho. As long as it is a pass at a low level it will be still motivational to the student, rather than a consistent 7



Edit:

Don't know what I meant here. To much beer and wine when I posted this

Ok that's interesting - that's probably how I function as well. But something tells me it's not the case for a majority of people. The word "fail" has a negative vibe which is hard to ignore.



OK this is very good feedback, thanks.

We certainly don't want the passmark level to prevent you from submitting a REC and getting feedback. Because we all know that you will progress faster if you do get feedback.

So if this is the case for many people, there is a flaw in REC that needs fixing.

Its quite a complicated subject when you start breaking it down! probably impossible to get a perfect set of rules.
I dont think it should be too easy to get a passing grade though. It would kinda devalue the process.
I totally appreciate the motivation that a pass will give but I wouldnt like to get a 'pass' if it was just to keep me motivated.
you dont HAVE to submit a rec take to get feedback on a lesson. Im sure any instructor would check out a take and give you a 'mock' rec take evaluation if you asked.

Its tough putting a number on it. Its probably most common ( from what Ive seen ) that we have a 7 for a fail and an 8 or 9 for a pass. We essentially use just a few numbers for grades. Maybe its worth simply having a pass or fail, maybe a 'distinction' type of pass for a really nailed lesson. The comments from the instructors are of more value than the grade.

The subject of tones is an interesting one as well. If you are being judged on the ability to mimic the instructors tone then that is quite a task. Most lessons dont really go into any depth about how to achieve the tone and tbh I dont even know if it would be possible to do anyway. I done the Peter Green lesson a while back, there's no way Im dialling in a tone like Stehane gets, I just dont have the touch, gear or knowledge but it was pointed out in the rec comments that although I didnt match the tone I managed to get a decent sound that fitted with the backing and the overall style.... I think that type of approach is good. It cuts you a little slack without allowing for unsuitable overall tones.

For the record, Tom, I think you are being too hard on yourself. 2 months IMO isnt long at all. Ive taken way longer to get a lesson to rec level.... like WAY longer! Dont sweat on that one mate

I think bleez made a great point - instead of putting a number on it, maybe it should just be as simple as pass or fail (maybe a better word than fail?).

If you didn't make the cut, a clear explanation of what needs to be improved in order to pass.

Everyone seems to be all over the place on this, it will be interesting to see the end result

EDIT:

Because putting a number or letter on a take can be difficult - and you may end up giving someone a 5 for a specific reason, yet another person a 4.

I think a simple pass or fail takes most of the inconsistency away.