Hello there mate!

This here is your place! Since we will tackle theory for the first tasks, I was curious if you could tell me a bit about your theoretical knowledge so far?

It means a lot, so that I can understand where we are at the present moment

Cosmin

I'm a little embarrassed to say I have no knowledge of theory whatsoever, I have never been trained musically with the exception of a few guitar lessons from the local rock guitarist when I was a kid, and even then, my mother essentially paid him so I could sit in the room and watch him jam.

This may be a daunting task. I guess I would like to learn exercises that would help me become faster as well as how, in my mind, I can string patterns together to improvise. I guess the building block to that is theory?

Always Imagine music, as a foreign language. You can't understand what you are saying if you don't know what the words actually mean, even if you can reproduce some with a good accent even True?

Now, let's begin with the major scale and a nice exercise

1) We have the major scale built up using this formula: w w h w w w h.

w = whole step
h = half step

2) Any natural major scale is built after this formula. Example:

C D E F G A B C

there's a w between C and D
there's a w between D and E
there's a h between E and F
there's a w between F and G
there's a w between G and A
there's a w between A and B
there's a h between B and C

Now, if you look at your guitar, you will notice that if you play the C note (3rd fret D string) the D note is one whole step up, on the same string. That means that the note right next to the C note is C# and the note next to C # is D. So, 2 frets up means one whole step and one fret up means a half step.

3) Now, we have concluded that E is the major third in the case of C major and if we lower the major 3rd with one half step, we get the minor third and automatically, we can create a minor chord - C minor in our case.

Here are the formulas:

1 3 5 - major chord formula. Example: C E G
1 b3 5 - minor chord formula. Example: C Eb G

4) If you know these now , please tell me how does the D major scale look like - what are the notes making it up. (Use the w w h w w w h formula, starting from D) and tell me the notes making up the D major and D minor chords

What do you think mate?

Cosmin

I don't know this stuff Cosmin, I mean I know where it sounds good to go a full step in some places and a 1/2 step in others depending on what is being played, but I have never seen it written down like this so thank you so much for your time.

Let me marinate my brain on this for a bit and I will attempt to give you an answer.

Good morning Cosmin. I am now pondering this, and I understand for the most part and will answer your question 4-D once I work it out in my head.

But, I do not understand what is meant by "we concluded that E is the major third in the case of C major"?

How did we conclude this? And, what exactly does major third mean? I know that in standard tuning the top open string is "E", is that what you are talking about?

Hey mate! Well, in the C major scale we have C D E F G A B C, right? If we would give numbers to each letter, we would discover that each step of the scale or scale degree - each one of the notes above can have a number assigned. Form 1 to 8

Now in C major - 3 is E, right? And we know that 3 is a third and we also know that since the scale is major, we will have a major third included in its structure

If we regard the notes in respect to the C note in the C major scale:

C-D - second
C-E - major third
C-F - perfect fourth
C-G - perfect 5th
C-A - major sixth
C-B - major seventh
C-C - octave

These are the intervals Please tell me if it's clear now

Cosmin

Okay, here goes:

Formula is: w w h w w w h

And if there is no E#/Fb or B#/Cb

Major D Scale: D (w) E (w) F# (h) G (w) A (w) B (w) C# (h) D

I am not sure how to figure the D minor chords though? Would those be the F and C? And if so why? I just picked those because they were the notes skipped in the progression.

Hehe! Yes! We have a winner - it's the correct formula and the right notes! Very good work mate - now for the minor chords

As I stated a while ago in the longer post, the minor chord triad formula (triad = 3 sounds ) is 1 b3 5. b3 = Flat 3rd and it's nothing else but the major third in the major chord formula lowered with a half step. What would D minor look like in this case?

You said D (1) F (b3) - the normal 3rd was F# so it means we have lowered it with one half step and we get the F, as you have correctly assumed and there's the 5th left - which is the 5th in the D major scale?

A is the 5th in the Major scale.

The Minor D triad would be: D F A

How does this effect the pattern w w h w w w h (?) Because now we are at (up to the A) w h w w

To complete the minor scale by going down a half step on the major 3rd, do we also go down a half step on the major 6th?

Or am I starting to have a mental breakdown?

I'm trying to make sense of this in my head without looking at the scale generator. I believe if I get it to make sense to me I'll be able to grasp it and use it practically. I've looked at scales millions of times and never understood them for anything except as you say, another language.

Your assumption is correct again mate No sweat - I promise you will master these things in a pretty short while - in your head that is, for the hands, well, it'll take a while longer, but hey - that's the whole fun

Check it out the minor scale formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8 - that means that if you want to obtain a minor scale out of a major one, you just apply this formula and you have it. In the case of D major to D minor :

D major - D E F# A B C# D (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)

D minor - D E F G A Bb C D (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8)

Now if you tell me what major scale has the exact same notes as the D minor scale BUT re-arranged so that they would fit the w w h w w w h formula, you are onto something big here

Cosmin

Okay, so I am going to have to work this out like math equation somehow...

So we have:

D E F G A Bb C D
w h w w h w w


Just by looking at the formation of the pattern above, it appears the pattern moves forward, so seeing how the next note in the pattern which would restart it to w w h w w w h would be an "F", right?


F G A Bb C D E F
w w h w w w h

Absolutely true! There's a catch here D minor is F major's relative minor scale - they share the same notes but they start from a different note. It's actually a mode of the major scale, called the Aeolian mode, but later on about this

Anyway - can you discover how you could say which is the relative minor in a major scale, based on the note on which is starts? Let's try and draw this conclusion in the following manner - let's take the G major scale and the E major scale - write them down and then, can you find their relative minor scales?

Please let me know if there are any questions I am really enjoying this

Cosmin

Okay, following the (w w h w w w h) pattern I have to look at the notes on the fretboard to know what they are:

G Major Scale:

G A B C D E F# G
w w h w w w h


E Major Scale:

E F# G# A B C# D# E
w w h w w w h


Understand that F#=Gb, G#=Ab, C#=Db, D#=Eb

and Relative means "Considered in relation or in proportion to something else"

Both those Scales have the F#/Gb

So G Flat Minor would be the relative minor?

Gb Ab A B Db D E Gb (?)

Are there more? If yes, let me know so I can try to figure them out.



BWT - there is no way in hell my brain will allow me to consider this stuff while playing, I have drank waaaaay too much in my life to fire on all those cylinders.

Up to the point above, your assumptions are very correct

Now, the relationship between the # and b are called enharmonic relationships - meaning that one sound shares two names, in respect to a certain context.

The relative minor of any major scale is found on the 6th scale degree - for instance: In F major = F G A Bb C D E F the 6th step is D so the D minor scale is the relative minor scale of the F major scale, as you have deduced in an earlier post

Now, which would be G major and E major's relative minor scales?

Don't worry, they will come natural after exercising

Cosmin

Oh, well in that case then:

G Major Relative Minor: E

E Major Relative Minor: Db

Correct, with one little observation - you already have D# in E major so you want to call it C# instead of Db right? Because you can't have
E F# G# A B Db D# E focus on this aspect and let's see the formulas for Amajor and B major, their relative minors and the major and minor chords - B major/ minor and A major/ minor!

Okay, I'll get back with you in a bit on this.

That was my next question though, when do we decide whether to call a note sharp or flat? I just put Db because I think we started off calling them flats in the thread. Is it just to stick with how you wrote it first?

Good question - usually you have to pay attention to respect the formula of a major scale or a minor scale - if you have a note that appears to be doubled - just like in the example above, you can modify the b or # so that you have no doubles - each note appears once Later on, some exceptions might appear

Okay cool. I just got to work, so I'll get back on the last question in a bit.

I sure do appreciate all your help and input Cosmin!

Nothing to it man! It's a pleasure because it's interactive and I'm not the only one doing the talking - it's nice to receive feedback and see progress arising out of it

Okay, I think this answers these questions:



A Major A B Bb D E Gb Ab A

A Relative Minor: Gb

Gb Relative Minor Scale: Gb Ab A B Db Eb F Gb



B Major B Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb B

B Relative Minor: Ab

Ab Relative Minor Scale: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

Mate, read the sentence I wrote before the one you colored in red You did the exact opposite of what I stated Focus a bit and I am sure you will get the thing going If you have any question regarding my statement, please tell me

Arrrrrrrgh matey!

A Major A B C# D E F# G# A w w h w w w h <--- I had a mistake in that line too

A Relative Minor: F#

Gb Relative Minor Scale: F# G# A B C# D E F# w h w w h w w



B Major B C# D# E F# G# A# B w w h w w w h

B Relative Minor: G#

G# Relative Minor Scale: G# A# B C# D# E F# G# w h w w h w w

I actually had it written using the sharps, then went back and put flats instead. I guess I am still confused as to when to settle on sharp or flat. I guess I was thinking they were interchangeable, but if you start writing it one way, then to stick with that throughout.

this morning I'm actually working on that beginner's Pentatonic licks by Muris Varajic, but once I get that beginner's solo committed to memory, hopefully by the end of today, I'll see if I can get my video set-up working so you can slaughter me with critiques on my sloppiness.

BTW Cosmin. You had asked about my PRS' being Custom 24s in that other thread. I am certain that is what I purchased, but it was 2007 when I got that last one, and now I want to sell it and get a Les Paul. Thing is, there are no markings on the guitar anywhere, only a serial number. I have contacted PRS customer service to see if they can give me the spec run-down, and have not heard back from them yet.

How well do you know PRS'? I posted up close pics of that silver one in the other thread, as well as on a PRS forum, and so far nobody has been able to answer, as it seems that PRS has a very bizarre and almost creepy way of labeling their products so it is next to impossible to know exactly what you're getting unless you keep all the paperwork when purchasing brand new.

Any ideas?

It's the last post in this thread...

Link to thread

Don't worry man, it'll come in time and with practice Oh, please correct the Gb left there and make it an F#

About the PRS - I will ask a good friend of mine working for the official PRS dealer in Romania to check out that series and let you know on the result Stay tuned Now, have you ever heard about harmonizing a scale?

A Major A B C# D E F# G# A w w h w w w h
A Relative Minor: F#
F# Relative Minor Scale: F# G# A B C# D E F# w h w w h w w

B Major B C# D# E F# G# A# B w w h w w w h
B Relative Minor: G#
G# Relative Minor Scale: G# A# B C# D# E F# G# w h w w h w w



No, I have never heard of harmonizing a scale?

Hehe! Hey there mate!

Harmonizing a scale means replacing each step of the scale with a chord instead of playing a single note.

We would be using only notes belonging to the scale itself, so following this idea, we get the following formula (they are chords):

Major minor minor Major Major minor diminished Major (Diminished chord formula = 1 b3 b5)

For instance, in the case of C major the chords harmonizing the scale are: C major D minor E minor F major G major A minor B diminished C major

Let's see smile.gif what would the chords used to harmonize D major be?

You mean there's more to guitar than bar cords? Kidding.

I'll look at this tomorrow as I have my kid home from school today, he's trying to help me too. We've had him taking piano since he was 4 years old and today he is in college on a music scholarship. He plays tuba in the marching band, but he is also a drummer and getting really good on the bass. I'm very proud of him.

Oh!! So nice! Congrats on leading him on a musical journey See you tomorrow man!

Mate, regarding your PRS Question, have you tried this? http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/year.html

Hey Cosmin, I'm just now having a chance to look at this in depth.

Okay, so I need to commit to memory: MAJOR minor minor MAJOR MAJOR Diminished MAJOR

I don't understand the formula 1 b3 b5?

So chords harmonizing D Major are:
D MAJOR E minor F# minor G MAJOR A MAJOR B minor C# Diminished D MAJOR

1 b3 b5? D Major F minor B Major (?)





Concerning the PRS, I did see that, but I knew the year it was, so I wrote PRS and a representative answered back. I am having second thoughts on selling it now as I have been playing it often this past week.

Ends up it's a 2007 Standard 24, solid mahogany body, mahogany neck with a Regular carve, East Indian rosewood fretboard, Platinum Metallic finish with HFS treble and Vintage bass pickups.

Hey mate!

DO not sell that PRS Unless I make enough money to buy it

Now - memorize that formula but please add the 'minor' after the two majors and before the diminished - you missed it

The rest is correct and regarding the diminished chords - 1 b3 b5 means root, minor third, flat fifth In the case of D major we would have C# diminished which is made out of C# E G and in the case of D diminished, we would have D F Ab (I used Ab instead of G#, because we have a b5)

Can you tell me which are the notes making up the E major scale and then harmonize the whole scale, telling me what notes make up each chord?

Cosmin

Yikes, this stuff is breaking my mind. I'm still digesting everything up to this point. Just talking about it and looking at it daily is familiarizing me to everything, and I am learning, but I have not got this stuff memorized yet. I still have to go back and look over the posts and reference the guitar scales. I'll get back to you on this next riddle.

Ahoy there! Take your time mate I want to forever scar these things into your soul!

Hey Cosmin,

Just talked to my friend in Bucharest. He will be playing at papa la soni, on the 23rd of january. If you like blues, please go out there and see him and say hello. I told him you are teaching me, and he, as well, is teaching me too - on Skype.

I showed him this thread too and your work, he was very complimentary of you.

His name is Clay Windham.

Heeey How cool is that? Thanks man! I'll go for certain! Thank you very much

Hey Cosmin, Been working out this idea for the past week. It's still just a puppy and there's no bass or keyboard or anything. I suffered over the solo because I couldn't figure out a run that I thought worked, so I stuck with bends. Anyway, the sound your band comes up with is very much the way I like to write, and I wanted to get some creative input from you. I stayed pretty simple to give everyone a base to work over, especially lyrically.

https://soundcloud.com/lllspocklll/c-t-idea-in-progress8

BTW - I decided not to sell the silver PRS, I am in love with it again. I've been using it on this idea.

Mate, honestly, but HONESTLY speaking - I love the solo, just as it is!! It sounds very original! What I'd add is a bit more dynamics, like the ones you have used in the parts where the guitar plays less - around min 01:00 but with more rhythmic variation

And vocals would do absolute justice! Yay! The PRS stays! I am glad to hear that!

Thanx for your input! I understand about being more dynamic, I guess that is difficult for me when I am writing the parts by myself using only guitar, I think those sort of parts flow more easily when writing with a group of people in a practice environment. Hope to get together with the guys over the weekend and work on this idea and incorporate in those more dynamic ideas.

Indeed, working with the band will provide fresh ideas all the time, but you can also do it at home with the drums or in your head - I usually come up with all the stuff after I already hear it in my head in a rudimentary form. Then I record and mold and modify until I get what I want. People usually become satisfied to quickly with a product I think you should push yourself a bit more before saying 'this is the best I can do'

I'm having such a hard time with this. I just can't see the formula in my head.

I started typing out what you have shown me just so it would soak in, but then I'm drawing a blank?

Maybe I am not understanding the question. You asked me to show the notes of E Major which are: E F# G# A B C# D# E

Then Harmonize the whole scale. So to do that I apply: MAJOR-minor-minor-MAJOR-MAJOR-minor-Diminished-MAJOR

Which translates for E Major to: E MAJOR, F# minor, G# minor, A MAJOR, B MAJOR, C# minor, D# Diminished, E MAJOR

Then you asked me what notes make up each chord. So are you asking me the notes to each of these chords?

E Major Chord:

F# Minor Chord:

G# Minor Chord:

A Major Chord:

B Major Chord:

C# Minor Chord:

D# Diminished:

And I can show those, but the only way I know how to do that would be to search Google.

What part of the equation am I missing to understand how to figure this?

Hey mate, you are 100% correct on all your assumptions And yes, my ultimate question was what notes ar making up those chords

If harmonizing meant using notes that belong only to the E major scale and you have the formulas for minor, major and diminished chords, apply the formulas for each chord you have and you'll discover the notes that make them up. As an example:

E major chord - it is a major chord thus it is built by using the root, major third and 5th -> 1 3 5 - we are in the E major scale, meaning that the notes making up the E major chord are E G# B

Now, your task is to figure out the rest of the chords

Cosmin

Okay - so the formula is

Major: Root > Major 3rd > 5th or (1>3>5)
Minor: Root > Minor 3rd > 5th or (1>3b>5)
Diminished: Root > Minor 3rd > Minor 5th or (1>3b>5b)

(Remember 6th note is Relative minor in Scale)
(Remember 7th note is Diminished)

E Major Chord: E > G# > B

F# Minor Chord: F# > A > C#

G# Minor Chord: G# > B > D#

A Major Chord: A > C# > E

B Major Chord: B > D# > F#

C# Minor Chord: C# > E > G#

D# Diminished Chord: D# > F# > A

For the above, I'm just trying to encapsulate what I'm learning for easy reference.

100% Correct!!!

Let's try the same drill for Db major scale Sorry for being a nag, but I want you to cement these in your system

Okay, I'm seeing the pattern, but I haven't got it to where my mind will automatically jump to if the next note in the progression should be flat or not (or sharp or not).

The toughest part of this was transposing the sharps to flat and not getting confused.

If I did not get something wrong, just let me know which line has an error and let me see if I can figure it out.

Thanks!

BTW - don't worry about "nagging", this repetition is what will eventually work, and I wish I had done as a child.

Major: Root > Major 3rd > 5th or (1>3>5)
Minor: Root > Minor 3rd > 5th or (1>3b>5)
Diminished: Root > Minor 3rd > Minor 5th or (1>3b>5b)

(Remember 6th note is Relative minor in Scale)
(Remember 7th note is Diminished)

Db Major Chord: Db > F > A

Eb Minor Chord: Eb > Gb > Bb

F Minor Chord: F > Ab > C

Gb Major Chord: Gb > Bb > Db

Ab Major Chord: Ab > C > Eb

Bb Minor Chord: Bb > Db > F

C Diminished Chord: C > Eb > Gb

This is great man! You got the hand of it it seems

Well, now, I think it's time to discuss about 7th chords - have you ever heard about those? It's actually your first step into the world of chords made out of 4 different notes instead of 3.

Let's imagine that we have the C major scale and we want to add the 7th for each chord that we obtain after we harmonize the scale.

I want you to tell me which is the 7th of each note making up the scale - remember that the 7th must belong to the C major scale as well

Okay, I guess that means to simply add the 7th (or diminished) note of each root…

Major: Root > Major 3rd > 5th or (1>3>5)
Minor: Root > Minor 3rd > 5th or (1>3b>5)
Diminished: Root > Minor 3rd > Minor 5th or (1>3b>5b)

(Remember 6th note is Relative minor in Scale)
(Remember 7th note is Diminished)

C Major Chord: C > E > G > B

D Minor Chord: D > F > A > C

E Minor Chord: E > G > B > D

F Major Chord: F > A > C > E

G Major Chord: G > B > D > Gb <--- Gb/F# wrong here, I don't understand?

A Minor Chord: A > C > E > G

B Diminished Chord: B > D > F > A

I just guessed that the formula for the Diminished Chord would be 1 > 3b > 5b > 7b off the major scale?


There must be an error in this calculation Captain.

Everything is correct - aside from the G dominant 7th as it is called - which has G B D A - that's 1 3 5 b7 as a formula and indeed the 1 b3 b5 b7 is the correct formula for the half diminished chord (m7b5) formed on the 7th scale degree.

Now, the harmonized major scale would have the following chord structure: M7 m7 m7 M7 7 m7 m7b5 M7

M7 - major 7th - 1 3 5 7
m7 - minor 7th - 1 b3 5 b7
7 - dominant 7th - 1 3 5 b7
m7b5 - half diminished - 1 b3 b5 b7

Knowing all these now, can you take care of the same drill for the E major scale?

Cosmin

Everything is correct - aside from the G dominant 7th as it is called - which has G B D A - that's 1 3 5 b7 as a formula and indeed the 1 b3 b5 b7 is the correct formula for the half diminished chord (m7b5) formed on the 7th scale degree.

Now, the harmonized major scale would have the following chord structure: M7 m7 m7 M7 7 m7 m7b5 M7

M7 - major 7th - 1 3 5 7
m7 - minor 7th - 1 b3 5 b7
7 - dominant 7th - 1 3 5 b7
m7b5 - half diminished - 1 b3 b5 b7

Knowing all these now, can you take care of the same drill for the E major scale?


I'm not understanding a couple of things

The G Dominant 7th being G>B>D>A doesn't make sense to me, with the 1>3>5>b7 formula? G major scale would have G > B > D > F#, so if we go a half step down from F# that gives us an F. I'm confused on how we calculate G > B > D > A out of that?

Hey mate - it's easy - you see you are dealing with the b7 not the major 7. In the case of G, the major 7 would've been F# but since we are in the key of C major, F# wouldn't fit, right? But F does and F is the flat 7th in respect to G - true?

I'm sorry Cosmin, I'm trying to understand and have looked at it over and over, and I still am not getting how we get "A".

This is how my mental process is working...

When I was harmonizing the G note in the C Major scale, it is a major in the formula M>m>m>M>M>m>D, and the formula is 1 > 3 > 5 > b7

So this is the way I am calculating that...



I am not understanding when you said "since we are in the key of C major, F# wouldn't fit"?