Hello folks,

OK, I know this happens but what causes it? It was worse with my GT100 than with this Helix LT, is it the sound of the processors? I find it odd that it increases when the string is moving and is hardly there (with the volume I have set anyway) when I deaden the string. Obviously, when you pick harder the note drowns out the hiss. Is there anything that can stop it?

Please excuse my ignorance of equipment

Cheers
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/hissing

It there when the gain of the sıftware amp is set to zero? (and no real or virtual pedals before it)

WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!

How has that happened?? The embeded player isn't my recording, click on the artist's name, what is weird is that the link beneath the embedded player takes you to my recording.

I renamed the track and uploaded again and now it won;t put the embedded player in there. The link is correct though.

Very very very strange.

UPDATE: Sorted and removed. Thanks Kris.

When I replyed there was nolink, now the one I see is very creepy but yeah when followed the link I was directed to your channel.

Also I'd like to ask, does moving the mouse or scrolling the DAW or a webpage has an effect on the sound?

The mouse has no effect mate. It's always there more with a drive pedal in the chain, software or hardware

Last week I got to try the line6 plug-in amps that are bundled with their soundcards. Actually liked them (aside cab.s) as they feel a bit more organic compared to freeware plug-ins.

But I also noticed this had to do with the way they were designed, to my ears theres a compressor inside them which gives the reaction character to them. It sort of feels like a gate but its actually one of the elements hidden under the hood of their software amps. It does increase noise with such subtle picking just like you shared. What I also noticed was this didn't happen when the gain of any amp was set to zero, pure clean tone.

Did you try yet to record at hotter levels? the only way to reduce that is keeping the noise (which is already there) down as much as possiible. The most noise-free solution would be the Helix working as the soundcard and the guitar connected directly to it (no pedals). Then we'll focus on other gear you have if you want them included to the chain.

Keep in mind some noise is normal, I for example although could just run a soundcard prefer to connect the processor (to soundcard) with pedals. This isn't the most noise-free solution but its low enough for me compared to the tone I like.

I asked the mouse and scrolling cause (probably) my graphics card make a noise similar to your sharing (not a pure hiss but something digital-like). Annoying, but low enough to be managable for recording.

you might have answered this , but where is your gate in the chain

In that patch, I'm not sure there is one. I won't have time to look for a week as I am going on holiday.

I'lll catch up when I get back.

Cheers buddy

Cool, enjoy the holiday!

From the sound of it, you are talking about noise as a result of using a patch with a bit of gain? So just add a noise gate right? is that the issue you are trying to solve or am I misunderstanding?

Todd

Thanks Todd,

I'm not really trying to solve anything, I just want to understand why the noise is there and why it increases with the note volume.
If you have hum from single coils it doesn't increase when you touch the string. I'm just wanting to understand things really. I thought it was maybe the sound of digital processing at work.
If I can understand, rather than just be told how to fix it, it will help. Obviously being told how to fix it is good but, why the fix works is better.

Cheers

Hey Todd, when explaining to Phil66 I wrote a compressor under the hood but now thinking I ment expander.

Though not as obvious, during my tests I also noticed it and think its uniqe to line6 amp modeling. I think under the hood, the expander is right before the gain stage clipping cause when I decreased the gain to zero this didn't happen. The good is overdrive reacts a bit more organic to guitars dynamics but on low gain/subtle picking if the signal path isn't silent to some-what to a standard then the noise might be annoying.

Before working on the gate, I want to get in a bit detailed with phil's analog chain to see if we can lower that self noise once he returns from holiday. Also, personally I'd like to think of the gate as a last resort rather than first cause in home studio environment with proper gain-staging it might be avoidable even with high-gain.

Mertay's idea of checking his chain, pun intended, is the best bet. Sounds like noise from his chain, also akin to ground loop hum, that can't be heard until he plays as the gate, or always active noise suppression, crushes it until something sounds above the threshold. As the sounds decays, there is a point that the gate suppresses the noise too as the signal strength dips below the set threshold. So the noise is heard as the note sounds and then as the note fades it is cut off at a specific threshold, to return when another string is plucked.

Phill has noise in the signal somewhere likely pre-gain stages and pre-noise suppressor (even if it is just the program's innate always active suppression that most people don't fiddle with). It's louder with a higher gain patch as the gain stage also amplifies the noise.

It can be a difficult thing to track down at times.

If he has no peddles before the input, check with another guitar. If both guitars are doing it, it's in the program (or input device) or possibly the guitar cable itself. Check with another cable of a different make. If only one guitar does it, then it's the guitar's wiring (like a loose connection or pickup) or a function of guitar itself (like an unshielded single coil)

It doesn't sound cyclic as a ground loop of the input device (helix) or power cable picking up static from another source. I had similar noise once and it took a while to figure out because it had nothing really to do with my gear but an overhead fan. When the fan was running, it affected the power supply in a fashion to produce static/noise. I have also had similar noise when one pedal was plugged into a different power source than the other pedals.

I think I'm getting a better idea of the goal now

Using a compressor/expander is a good way to both limit dynamic range and to raise the lowest volume notes up to close oto the louder notes. The compressor sorta sets the lout limit as it where by compressing the signal. The expander brings low volume notes up a bit. The result, when done correctly, is that you don't get huge swings in volume but you can also end up "Raising the noise floor" which is to say bringing background noise up to the level of the rest of the notes being played.

As you know single coils are notorius for hum. Some are designed to be "noiseless" though I gather few actually attain this. Turn each effect in your chain off, and add them back one by one. This will let you know where the trouble spot lives.

The more gain you use, the more noise you have to contend with typically.

The ratio on your compressor will determine the relationship of the quitests note to the loudest note. EG. 2to1 compression vs 10 to 1 compression. Play around with the compressor settings until you find the right balance.

Then add a gate as the last thing in your chain and try to use as little as possible. It can kill sustsain if it's set to roughly Hope this helps!

Todd

Cheers Todd.

I was wondering why the noise was only there when the string is vibrating, it made me think it was the sound of the processing itself.

Thanks

I have bad cords or drained batteries in my FX loop make the same exact sound. Also make sure any inputs on pedals or your cabinet don't need to be tightened down.

Do you have a noise gate on that patch? If so, ,try turning it off so you can see what is going on even when no string is being struck. The noise could be there the whole time, just getting cut off by the noise gate and then coming through when the gate is tripped off by hitting a guitar string.

it could be many things, but starting out with the gate idea to see if there is something there all along

Todd

Ahhhhh, good point, I'll check when I'm home.

Cheers

OK,

No noise gate, guitar into Red Squeeze compressor>Engle head>4x12>Deluxe compressor>Chrous>Simple delay>plate reverb.

I didn't put them in this order it was as the patch was found

Cheers

try removing the comp.s and add gain fom engl head to compansate, first without gate and see if a gate is needed.

Thanks Mertay,

I'll check tomorrow but I think the Engl gain is maxed

Cheers

The first comp. in the chain is probably the main reason of noise, if gain drops an od with mild settings can be used. But the second comp if set wrong can also cause problems, I would expect a more raw sound when that comp. is removed (might sound better to you even if it adds noise or not).

Also, you mentioned about making a marshall based preset for general use. Create/adjust to taste while listening from the monitors at low volume (say, the lowest you listen normally-nothing drastic), after that remind me I'd like to try something that might work for you.

The two compressor at different spots like that strikes me as a pinch odd. I'm with mertay, turn off the compressors. Also, realize that, no matter what, as you add gain/dist, you add noise. This is the entire reason for a noise gate. if you have a high gain patch ( you mentioned the ENGL gain was all the way up) then the "noise floor" is way up. E.g There will be noise in the signal no matter what. The compressors may be acting as a noise gate on this patch. That's one way to do it.

I'd say start with the very basics. E.G. Turn everything off but the AMP and CAB. Start with the gain at Zero. Turn up until you find a good starting point for your tone. Then, add a noise gate Guitar/gate/Amp. And fiddle with the gate so that it doesn't clamp down on your sustain, but does clamp down on the noise.

After you find a good balance, add an Overdrive in front of the engl with volume half way and gain at zero. Slowly work the volume up till you find the sweet spot.

I'd leave the compressors off to be honest.

Once you find a good starting point with gate/overdrive/head/cab, then you can start adding FX like delay/reverb

Todd

It's hard to be certain, but no, that does not sound like a sound the processor is producing. I would first suspect a cable, pickup, or interface problem.

Going back further in this thread I noticed that you said both your processors were doing this same thing? If that's the case then RAMMIKIN is probably right. It's not the patch/processor. If they are both doing the same thing, its' probably something else. The last bit of advice I gave was just about creating a process for making a decent patch by checking each bit along the way.

However, it seems clear to me now that you are saying both processors are doing this. I think the real answer isn't about the patch. Something else is putting odd line noise in your signal. So just like anything else, you need to remove as many variables as possible to determine where the source issue exists. E.G. take both processors, put them on dry/clean, and use one guitar cable and a pair of headphones to test. If you get the same result. Try a different guitar cable. Same results again, try a different pair of headphones. Same results again, try a different guitar. Same results yet again, try going to someone elses house and pluggin in there just to get away from your electric.


If you do all that and don't find the source then it's a mystery to be sure


Todd

Ok, I've narrowed it down to something I can't really do much about. It must be something in my electrics, possibly caused by my computer.

On the following recordings, I have hit one note and let it decay then played the same lick so you can hear the tonal difference. There is a difference in volume of the first note on each recording but I don't think it's all down to the compressors, I was only using my finger with no pick, I didn't want a sharp attack, I did use a pick for the lick though.

Here is the patch with the original settings.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/original-settings

Here is the patch minus the Red Squeeze.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-red-squeeze

Minus the Deluxe Comp:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-deluxe-comp

Minus both comps:
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/minus-both-comps

Here is the guitar just sitting there with me having no comp, then Red Squeeze, then Red Squeeze + Deluxe, then back to Red and back to none. I turned the input levels up for this and forgot to send the input to stereo.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/none-rc-rcdc-rc-none

Now, here is just me holding my guitar and putting it underneath my desk and near to the side of the PC. After I recorded this I did move across the other side of the room with my guitar but it didn't get rid of the noise, so maybe the PC is putting something into the electrical system?
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/computer


I think it's something I am going to have to work around as I can't really do much regarding the sockets etc in my room, I only have two in there and everything on my setup is running from one socket

The compressors are exacerbating the problem, I might try putting my Robert Keeley Compressor Pro before the Helix LT instead of using the onboard compressors. What do you think? Or is there something else? I'm enjoying learning about this stuff but it's hindering my practise

Cheers

First, are you hitting near clipping when played? cause the signal must be as strong as possible for lesser noise.

Guitar will always cause noise when played close to a computer. Like many, my computer is also close to me when I play guitar but I adjust the chair angle to the least noise I get (just a slight angle from the monitor is enough).

This is actually the first thing to do, lower the volume all the way down and look at the noise levels while adjusting the seat. Ofcourse your sitting position must be comfortable, but your body angle to the screen doesn't have to be perfectly facing streight.

After this I'd like to see a guitar+helix+computer (no soundcard, preamp, pedal etc.) noise result. If this doesn't reduce the noise then I'll be convinced its not about your recording chain.

P.S.; reducing the noise will yield more detail of your playing to Gab. as it will be sort of higher definition when you share sound files. Its annoying and takes time but hopefully on the long run would be worth it if we can get better results.

Thanks Mertay,

In the picked section after the long single note I was hitting around -.4db (minus zero point four).

I experimented with different set positions and even at the metres away it got no better than when sitting. The recording of the computer was with me putting the guitar nearly touching the side of the computer. I still had the same patch on.

When you say record helix direct, do you mean via USB?

If it helps, I disconnected EVERYTHING except the mains cable and plugged my headphones (Senheiser HD600) directly into the Helix LT and the exact same noise was there.

Cheers

If the same noise is there when guitar+helix+headphones then yeah we can eliminate your recording chain from being the problem.

How about the lighting in your room? I heard fluorescent and dimmer's can cause quite a lot of noise when recording. Dimmer's must be unpluged from socket if causing noise.

I have no dimmers or fluorescent, just halogen spotlights.

I know my electrics are noisy, I had some new pickups fitted once and they were so hummy it was unbelievable, went back to the shop with my amp/guitar/cables, nothing, even on full gain only the noise you would expect. We changed the wiring to the Seymour Duncan style for Les Pauls and it eliminated 95% of the noise. I'll try and find those recordings but I don't think I have them.

I think the next step, is for me to find the time, maybe at the weekend, to take my Helix and guitar to another house, not a neighbour as they all have been built to the same standard. First though, maybe just try it downstairs, in the garage to see if it is actually the computer.

Thanks for your help buddy.

THe headphone to helix and GT100 is the big test. Did it make the noise on both? Also did you try a different guitar cable on both? What were the results there?

The only thing to try after that, is take both units to a friends house and see if you get the same results. If you don't, then it's something at your place

Todd

I see, wish we could find an easier fix. If you do notice less noise in another house then we might take next step accordingly.

Many years ago I had one of those small ups devices, it was for properly shuting down the computer when power loss occured. Gave 5 minutes to close the computer once the electricity was cut.

I clearly remember trying to power my processor with it and the noise levels were greatly reduced although my amp was still running from the house electricity. I don't know their prices these days or what brand/model is best but running helix (and preferably computer+ other low energy needing gear) should fix the problem. Amps usually require a lot of power so excluding them for this would probably be better.

Thanks,

I did try a different cable and it was no different, brand new, different brand. No difference. I tried my RG1570 and there was a little bit less noise but that's a higher price bracket guitar than the PRS SE Custom24 that I am using for the tests.

Personally I think next step is to do a similar patch in the GT100, see what that does, I'm 99.9% sure it will be the same as I have heard it on that, I heard it on the GT10 and the ME80. All on High gain settings.

Then I'll take it down stairs so it's away from the PC and on a different electrical route, the main fuse box is in the garage so I'll be nearer to the incoming mains.

After that, it will be to take it to another house, unless the garage thing gives no noise, then I know where to look.

Does this sound the right way to you?

Cheers my friends. I appreciate your time.

The gt100 now seems only to help if the helix has a problem and seems it doesn't since they both have noise.

I'd say just try with the helix as thats the device you'll be using hopefully a very long time. In your current room with guitar+helix+headphone, try memorising that noise level with the guitar plugged but volume knob all the way down.

Lowering the volume pot is important so we won't confuse where the noise is coming from in different rooms (so we eliminate pickup noise). Since there isn't a noisegate in the preset you shared, these tests should give an idea of whats going on.

It's me you're talking about Mertay, what about when Boss bring their competitor into the ring? I may just get GAS

I think I should change my GMC name to The Gas Master66

I don't know if I'll get time in the next couple of days but definitely at the weekend.

Thanks for your help

hehe

yeah no rush, let me know how thing go

Could be the actual type of light bulbs. I know that higher end studios get real anal about their brand and style of lighting. Hardware and bulb brand. And dimmers are a really big deal - as in most of them can cause terrible noise.

I didn't re-read every post but did you try testing with all the lights off (that would be on the same breaker)?

Also, have you tried just guitar and cable into an amplifier?

Thanks Ken, I'll try that.

The lights are on a different circuit though. My confusion is why the noise isn't there unless the strings are vibrating. I know with hum and gain noise, it's always there. This seems to be generated by the string vibrating. I haven't got much understanding of this kind of thing. It's only a problem if I want to keep the recorded note going until fade out. In the flip side, if I were live, the volume level would be greater so it would be more easily heard.

Cheers buddy.

Hmm, I'm getting somewhere, where I getting to I don't know, but somewhere.

Ok I usually have my inputs on the Scarlett at 12 o clock, I vary the input level using the output level of the Helix (at the moment). My Scarlett volume control is usually around 9 o clock and I can't hear the sound that you will hear in the Soundcloud file below. I can hear it if I turn Scarlett volume up to 12 o clock and beyond. To get this recording I put the Scarlett inputs up to maximum, the guitar and Helix volume of completely down. This is PC interference, it changes if I save something to the hard drive or use my scroll wheel. When I switch the PC off, you can hear all kinds of alien sounds as it is shutting down, then when it is off, just normal expected hum and hiss that you get with everything.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/pc-1

Also, this sound CANNOT be heard through the headphones with the PRS hooked up to the Helix, only through the Scarlett but if I hook up my Ibanez RG1570 to the Helix I can hear the PC noise but ONLY on the bridge pickup The noise that we hear when the strings are moving is NOT there when the volume pot is turned down on either guitar!

Please note, this is all done at bedroom levels so would be more prevalent should I ever be brave enough to be on stage


UPDATE:

I took the Helix LT into the garage, the sound was there but about half the amount. I came back upstairs and tried it through the Scarlett without PC on, same result as the garage. Went through my Valveking, on 20 setting, clean vol 5, master vol 5, I got the hiss when I brushed the string but I would say, it was relative to the sound in the garage.

My conclusion, main culprit is the PC, overall, it's my crappy mains AND PC combined, something I'm going to have to live with I think, until I can afford to get a house built with bespoke studio quality mains and noise suppression

What do you think?

Cheer

Your reply makes sense to me.

There will always be some noise as our test preset was a distorted amp. If the noise is lowered in a different location then this was exactly the data we needed.I mentioned earlyer the noise I had on my computer was very similar to yours only lower. A computer is made of many parts, either itself in total or some parts in it may cause such a problem to varying degrees.

So like most of our houses the electricity isn't the best and combine that with computer interference and we got a problem.

I guess we can't do much for whats going inside the computer (?) but I wonder if some sort of grounding device for the computer exists to lower the noise?

Yeah that's what I'm thinking.

I'm not so bad now I know what it is. Like a take in your car., it annoys the hell out of you when you don't know what's causing it but once you know what's causing it, if you can't fix it, you live with it

Cheers and thanks for everything

I used to have something similar in my last place. The only way around it was to use my laptop to record and use my USB to quarter inch adapter (the same cable that comes with rock band) to go guitar/laptop and use the laptop battery and not plug in to the wall. My TH2 plugin let me hear amp/dist/fx while recording which was great. Doing this, I was able to get much cleaner recordings. I eventually sold all my desktop machines and ended up with 3 Macbook Pros

Todd

My PC has a plexi window in the side but I do have a solid aluminium side panel too, do you think it would help to put the solid aluminium one on? I'm thinking shielding?

If you don't think it will help I won't bother going into the attic to find it out

The case is a LianLi V2000 that is upside down, ie, the power supply is in the bottom section and the motherboard on the left hand side.


Would this help do you think? Go to 1:30 unless you want to see him set up his laptop and cab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSA2F1AwboU



Here is a recording, it starts with the USB plug in the back of the Helix LT and then out, back in, out and back in. IS there anything I can put into the USB line to supress it?
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/usb-in-out-in-out

Cheers

Honestly I have no idea about the aluminum side panel being helpful or not. I would say worth a shot if not too much of a hassle

The video was nice but it doesn't seem to work for our needs. He placed the behringer humm eliminator from soundcard output to the amp input, while our problem is the noise from the pc thats why for recording I'm not so sure about that.

The double insulated power supply approach seems more like what we need but thats not applyable for a pc...or I guess my online ups suggestion comes closest option. I think its best if you make a topic about this and not only here but other forums as well

I notice in the video that when he unplugs the power, things get quiet. When I used my laptop using only the battery like I mentioned, and the rock band guitar to usb cable, it was dead quiet. I watched through the video but I think I missed what he is trying to show? Maybe you could explain it?

As for getting the usb quiet, you can buy usb cables with a small ant rf filter on them. Also, your cables should be shielded. If they are not, they can pick up all sorts of crud. Crappy cheap cables are not always shielded. If guitar cables are sheilded, they will usually brag about it on the packaging or web site.

As for your case. I have no idea. You could always try it? I'm very thankful that I got away from destop machines as they did tend to be noisier. My macbooks tend to be kinda quiet. When running on battery they are very quiet. But I usually run on connected power.

Todd

Hey Todd, after phill's test we sort of concluded the noise main source was from the computer being fed by lesser I guess reguladed power (as in his garage phill noticed less noise).

My idea is an online ups feeding the desktop will be the same solution to a laptop being powered by its battery. What I'm not certain is 1-if this will work 100% as personally I didn't try this at home (though do know all decent studios use them) and 2-which online ups to buy.

I checked options in my country, they can be really cheap or really expensive. Aside calculating how much power is needed, which models fix any imbalance/distruption of flow of electricity is what I can't help to Phill.

Powering an entire rig with a UPS for any length of time will be pricey. I have a UPS attached to my laptop/hd tv rig and it cuts out after about 10 minutes and it cost a couple hundred bux and is a rack mount UPS. Also, when engaged, the ups seems to create more noise than the regular juice from the wall for some reason. Then again, it could just be the UPS that I bought but I bought a nice one.

Perhaps a line filter at the wall would cut down on noise a bit? You can get these cheap. $25 @ amazon
Click to view attachment

I have another issue developing My ears are zooming in on the sound now and I can detect more as time goes by. It's starting to get on my tits so much that I'm getting obsessive about it now.

My guess is yours an offline UPS, to my knowledge offline works only when the power is out (like a laptop battery) while online charges and sends its own power constantly.

Also what I vaugely remember from chats with people in time was active solutions are better cause some say noise gets worse at dibs (valley? I mean momentarily or constant lower than needed power) rather than peaks.



I some-what remember Darius having some experience about similar situations, maybe a pm could be helpful.

The main thing is the interference from the PC though, not the mains. I'm going to bring my work laptop home this weekend and record the PC noise and the PC shutting down just revealing the mains noise.

I think I might end up going the Laptop route, that's a NGD I didn't want let's hope a laptop on battery power doesn't give issues