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JaxN4
post Oct 26 2011, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Oct 26 2011, 09:10 AM) *
As Ivan says mixing and tracking/recording have different requirements and so in an ideal world require different treatment etc. (Same is also true for mastering - treatment is different to recording and mixing). For mixing using monitors you will still have to do room treatment.

As a minimum for tracking with headphones - use closed back phones. This will help prevent minimise external ambient noise. Also be aware that headphones do not present the stereo image the same as monitors/speakers. So things like reverb and echo and stereo placement can be an issue. For tracking on headphones you really should also use a properly calibrated headphone amp - if you don't then you may run in to problems judging levels and recalling them. Personally I prefer to use monitors/speakers for the majority and to just use headphones occassionally/rarely for checking fine detail.



Thanks alot mate, appreciate the info cool.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 26 2011, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Oct 26 2011, 10:29 AM) *
Two layers of thick curtains (and wrinkled) is a guaranteed and one of the cheapest ways to remove reflections. I suggest making a plan of work, and doing everything DIY. It's a cool project, make some food (I know you can do it! biggrin.gif ), and bring your friends over to help - you can finish it in no time! smile.gif


Oh guys biggrin.gif Thank you! You know what? What if I'll make a mini series with my new Nikon biggrin.gif (with which I'm shooting today by the way tongue.gif) and post the developing of the studio step by step smile.gif I just hope I'll have enough money to make it happen fast and not let you wait on the little movies too long laugh.gif


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JaxN4
post Oct 26 2011, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 26 2011, 11:18 AM) *
Oh guys biggrin.gif Thank you! You know what? What if I'll make a mini series with my new Nikon biggrin.gif (with which I'm shooting today by the way tongue.gif) and post the developing of the studio step by step smile.gif I just hope I'll have enough money to make it happen fast and not let you wait on the little movies too long laugh.gif



Great Idea mate...it will be a very usefull and highly watched video, regardless of time frame wink.gif


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tonymiro
post Oct 26 2011, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Oct 26 2011, 11:29 AM) *
Two layers of thick curtains (and wrinkled) is a guaranteed and one of the cheapest ways to remove reflections. I suggest making a plan of work, and doing everything DIY. It's a cool project, make some food (I know you can do it! biggrin.gif ), and bring your friends over to help - you can finish it in no time! smile.gif


That often works but it does depend on the frequencies that are being reflected, material of the curtain and the wall behind. Also helps to line the curtains properly smile.gif .


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Sinisa Cekic
post Oct 26 2011, 03:24 PM
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This is a great topic. I found this video, tell me something about this treatment..


And question: If I decide to take Krk or Alesis MKII, whether they are good for bass monitoring or I need subwoofer extra ?


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thefireball
post Oct 26 2011, 04:34 PM
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I'm not sure I understand differences between passive and active monitors. Which is better? I don't understand how that works with passive. You have to get in amped? But how? I can't find good pics on the web of the differences. What does it mean to have a standard tuner/guitar amp to amplify the passive speakers? I'm confused as you can see. I want to get the MK2 speakers as Todd recommended me for the price. But I want to make the best choice. Passive or active?


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Michael AC
post Oct 26 2011, 10:13 PM
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tony you have any pictures of your room and traps??
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 26 2011, 11:27 PM
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Pictures of the whole process will be nice as well mate (and easier to distribute)! smile.gif


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tonymiro
post Oct 27 2011, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Oct 26 2011, 04:34 PM) *
I'm not sure I understand differences between passive and active monitors. Which is better? I don't understand how that works with passive. You have to get in amped? But how? I can't find good pics on the web of the differences. What does it mean to have a standard tuner/guitar amp to amplify the passive speakers? I'm confused as you can see. I want to get the MK2 speakers as Todd recommended me for the price. But I want to make the best choice. Passive or active?


Passive require amplification, active have a built in amp. Most recording/mixing ones are active, whilst mastering tend to be either.

Big advantage of active is that you don't have to worry about getting a suitable amp for the monitors. Disadvantage is that the amps that are built in very often are not well matched to drive the bass and the tweeter properly. A guitar amp is NOT suitable to drive a monitor.


QUOTE (Michael AC @ Oct 26 2011, 10:13 PM) *
tony you have any pictures of your room and traps??


I'll see what I can do over the next few days smile.gif . Bass traps aren't pretty though as my woodwork skills are minimal biggrin.gif .


QUOTE (Sinisa Cekic @ Oct 26 2011, 03:24 PM) *
This is a great topic. I found this video, tell me something about this treatment..


And question: If I decide to take Krk or Alesis MKII, whether they are good for bass monitoring or I need subwoofer extra ?


Any monitor with less than a 7'' bass speaker really isn't likely to be good enough to produce bass IMHO. The problem with using a sub is that you have to match and position them very accurately or you will introduce additional problems, particularly around phase and timing.

I'd also have to say that this guy's video isn't great even ignoring that he's talking about acoustic treatment and not insulation. Still better than nothing I guess.

This post has been edited by tonymiro: Oct 27 2011, 10:01 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 27 2011, 01:33 PM
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Guys! I am starting to gather all this info smile.gif AND here's a first glance on how my studio looks like at this point (I beg you to forgive my lack of skill as a photographer biggrin.gif I just started learning)





I'll take more pictures later and post them!

This post has been edited by Cosmin Lupu: Oct 27 2011, 01:39 PM


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tonymiro
post Oct 27 2011, 03:10 PM
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Some photos of the traps etc Gary - not great quality I'm afraid.

This is a close up of the LHS monitor. It's a 3 way, 8'' bass, 5'' mid and a tweeter. Monitors are ATC SCM Professional and specially designed for mastering. They're active and include 3x2 dedicated Bryston amps, 1 for each speaker cone so each amp and each speaker cone handles a specific frequency range.Amps are 200W bass, 100W mid and 50 High, they put out 120dB SPL continuous at 1 meter. Speakers are flat to @50 Hz and then gently roll of at -3dB/Octave - better than most subs. X-Overs are at 3.5k and 380Hz. Amps are XLR and fed from a calibrated Lavry Black 11 DAC.

Attached Image

This is the studio facing towards the monitors. The bass traps are behind the monitors and are covered in the blue double bed sheets. The traps are literally wooden frames - wood is 1 inch thick and 6 inches wide- with no back or front. These are filled with high density rockwool to a thickness of about 5 inches, which is then held in place by a thin sheet glued and pinned in place and some wooden dowels. The dowels also add some strength to the frames.

Traps are rectanglular about 7' high by 4' wide and placed at an angle in the corner. Our traps are a lot bigger than the ones you can buy commercially and are floor standing. They also trap to a much lower frequency than commerical ones because we use a high density rockwool and pack it in. We have 4 of these - 1 in each corner plus we have some more, smaller more portable bass traps on the sides. There are also standard, commercial reflectors and diffusors but by far and away most of our treatment is bass trapping.

The stereo is 1 1/2 feet behind the rear plane of the monitors. Distance between the monitors is @7' centre to centre. The monitor stands position the speakers so that the tweeter and mid are in line with my ears when I'm seated. Montors are in open, free space @1 1/2 feet from the side and back walls and about 8'' from the inclined plane of the bass traps. Stands are cast iron and filled with lead shot. The monitors btw are increadibly heavy - they weigh about 50kg.

Attached Image

This is the studio facing the monitors taken from where I sit. You can see a reflector a couple of feet above the stereo. Main thing to note here: there is little/nothing directly between me and the monitors. You can just see the corner of my desk and the pc we use for mastering. Desk is about 6 back from the front plane of the speakers and the desk is against the wall so very little of it actually is in front of the RHS monitor and me. You can't see them but on the desk is a pc monitor, the DAC, some outboard and a USB extension that holds all the various I-Lok dongles and other dongle keys that we have. None of this stuff though is in line of sight of the RHS monitor.

Attached Image


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 27 2011, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Sinisa Cekic @ Oct 26 2011, 10:24 AM) *
This is a great topic. I found this video, tell me

And question: If I decide to take Krk or Alesis MKII, whether they are good for bass monitoring or I need subwoofer extra ?


I've got both of those and they are generally considered entry level "near field" speakers meaning, you keep them pretty close to your head and they don't have much bass. They make a good starter pair though. Anything below 60hz and your guessing in the mix. So yeah, you'd do better with a sub. Once I added a sub to them I was shocked. They are accurate enough to get a decent sounding mix with but they focus on mid bass/trebl. If you get both pair and switch between them, you can see how different speakers in the same price range can sound. The KRK are more flat. The Alesis seem to have more boom and tweet. Balancing between pairs gives me a better sense of how a mix will "travel"

If you can spend up and get the 8 inch woofer version, or the new 3 way KRK, you can probably hold off on the sub for a bit. But eventually you'll probably want one either way. There is a lot happening in that range that most speakers are not great at.

QUOTE (thefireball @ Oct 26 2011, 11:34 AM) *
I'm not sure I understand differences between passive and active monitors. Which is better? I don't understand how that works with passive. You have to get in amped? But how? I can't find good pics on the web of the differences. What does it mean to have a standard tuner/guitar amp to amplify the passive speakers? I'm confused as you can see. I want to get the MK2 speakers as Todd recommended me for the price. But I want to make the best choice. Passive or active?


Passive speakers don't have a power amp. (the bit that makes signal louder) and Active speakers do have one or more power amps. That's it smile.gif

So yea, like I was saying in a previous post, if you get passive speakers you'll need an amp. You can use a home stereo/tuner amp in a pinch and here's a pic of that. It's something you probably have in your house. Do you have a home theatre? Something to watch DVD's on? If it has some speakers, there's probably an amp. Here's a pic.

Attached Image

Generally, ACTIVE are better as the amp is in the speaker, the signal has less distance to travel before it hits the speaker cone. But, it honestly in your case it really won't make much difference. You'll be mixing/recording in a room that will have far more impact on your overal sound than passive/active speakers. Bedrooms are usually semi cubed shaped and one of the worst places you can track/mix. That's why we keep talking about accoustical treatment. But even without any accoustical treatment, a couple of starter speakers still beats the pants off laptop speakers or earbuds which is what most folks start out with, or something similar. You are looking at just getting a pair to start out and get some experience with. So it really just comes down to budget.

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 27 2011, 05:58 PM


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Sinisa Cekic
post Oct 27 2011, 09:19 PM
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Thanks for the explanation, guys wink.gif


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thefireball
post Oct 27 2011, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 27 2011, 11:49 AM) *
Passive speakers don't have a power amp. (the bit that makes signal louder) and Active speakers do have one or more power amps. That's it smile.gif

So yea, like I was saying in a previous post, if you get passive speakers you'll need an amp. You can use a home stereo/tuner amp in a pinch and here's a pic of that. It's something you probably have in your house. Do you have a home theatre? Something to watch DVD's on? If it has some speakers, there's probably an amp. Here's a pic.

Attached Image

Generally, ACTIVE are better as the amp is in the speaker, the signal has less distance to travel before it hits the speaker cone. But, it honestly in your case it really won't make much difference. You'll be mixing/recording in a room that will have far more impact on your overal sound than passive/active speakers. Bedrooms are usually semi cubed shaped and one of the worst places you can track/mix. That's why we keep talking about accoustical treatment. But even without any accoustical treatment, a couple of starter speakers still beats the pants off laptop speakers or earbuds which is what most folks start out with, or something similar. You are looking at just getting a pair to start out and get some experience with. So it really just comes down to budget.


Hmm... not sure if I want to rob anything in the house. And I don't know how that all should work. So I guess I'll just wait a little longer so I can get the active ones.


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tonymiro
post Oct 28 2011, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 27 2011, 05:49 PM) *
...



Generally, ACTIVE are better as the amp is in the speaker, the signal has less distance to travel before it hits the speaker cone. ...


More or less wink.gif . Actives tend to be popular as it saves the trouble of having to get a suitable power amp that matches the monitor. However the power amps in a lot of the entry and mid range level active monitors are not very good and in particular lack sufficient power to accurately present the bass end. Pro end actives tend to be tri-amped to do this, so the bass gets its own power amp.The distance that the signal travels isn't really an issue over a reasoanable path length provided you use good cabling.

With a passive you choose what power amp you want and you don't have to replace it if you change the passive monitors at a later stage. There can also be a big advantage in screening - both acoustically and thermally - by separating the power amp out of, and away from, the monitor. Further you can start quite simple with a single stereo power amp and add on at a later day to go bi-amp and then tri-amp mono bloks. There's also a potential thing about build qulity - on entry and mid range kit the power amps in actives often aren't as well put together as an equivalent separate power amp. Nonetheless you do have to try and match the power amp to your monitors which can cause problems- a minor issue here is that most domestic power amps do not have XLR i/o.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 28 2011, 09:57 AM
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Awesome information guys, very useful.


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 12 2012, 10:57 PM
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I wanted to ask about how your studio turned out? This thread has great "BEFORE" pics, maybe some "AFTER" pics? showing the evolution of a project studio in the making?

Todd


QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 23 2011, 08:05 AM) *
Hey guys! A little bit of advice I would ask from everyone which has experience with studio monitors - I am building up my studio and I need a pair of good monitors so I would like a good recommendation based on the following aspects:

- what would be more appropriate 5',6' or 8' speakers?
- does the size and form of the mixing room influence the monitor type I should have?
- my budget is about 400-500 euros

What other important aspects should be taken into consideration?

Looking forward to your advice mates! Thank ye! smile.gif



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SirJamsalot
post Apr 13 2012, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Oct 27 2011, 07:10 AM) *
This is the studio facing towards the monitors. The bass traps are behind the monitors and are covered in the blue double bed sheets.


Awesome info everyone. Tony, you mentioned that untreated foam is a fire hazard. What about those blue curtains?
Also, you said that positioning your monitors to either side of the mixer/pc wasn't a good choice. The picture you have shows speakers on stands - about how far apart from either side of the mixer/pc, from the back wall and your ears would you say is ideal placement?

Thanks bunches!!!!
I'm gonna print this thread out and study it smile.gif

Chris!


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Alex Feather
post Apr 13 2012, 03:05 AM
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I would suggest KRK or Yamaha those are very nice monitors and you can get pretty good quality mixes!


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tonymiro
post Apr 13 2012, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Apr 13 2012, 01:02 AM) *
Awesome info everyone. Tony, you mentioned that untreated foam is a fire hazard. What about those blue curtains?
Also, you said that positioning your monitors to either side of the mixer/pc wasn't a good choice. The picture you have shows speakers on stands - about how far apart from either side of the mixer/pc, from the back wall and your ears would you say is ideal placement?

Thanks bunches!!!!
I'm gonna print this thread out and study it smile.gif

Chris!


Hi Chris,
With foam the risk is that it burns at quite a high temperature and retains heat but also that it can produce poisionous fumes. Curtain material will of course burn but unlike foam it doesn't potentially produce poisonous fumes.

Our speakers are about 1.5 meters away from the rear and side walls. (We've also removed the stereo unit that was between them so there is now nothing between the monitors. It lived there temprarily whilst we repainted out house.)

The 'mastering seat' is about 2 meters back from the monitors and the desk that holds our mastering equipment is to the side of this chair and runs parallel to the side wall and is mainly behind the chair. Most of the equpiment is set so it's to the side of the engineer and slightly behind him/her. We do this so that there is nothing directly in the way of the monitors and the engineer and to reduce comb filtering from odd reflections to a minimum.

The room itself is about 8 meters long - the monitors fire down the length - 8 meters length is about the minimum you need to reproduce stereo accurately. The listening position/mastering chair is about 1/3 from the front wall where the monitors are and 2/3 from the rear wall. That's pretty much an ideal ratio and works for our particular room and monitors but a ratio like this depends on the actual room you have.

Mixing studios tend to have the engineer sitting close to the monitors, which are also usually mounted on the console's meter bridge and set close to the wall. I've seen some mix engineers who end up sitting less than 1 meter away. None of that will produce good enough stereo for accurate mastering but it's done for pragmatic reasons for a mixing studio because of space and the historic need for the engineer to be hands on at a large split or in line console.

It's also worth remembering that the monitors used in most mix studios are smallish 2 way ported designs that are designed to be placed close to a wall as the wall will reflect and so 'help' with perceived bass. Monitors for mastering like ours are much bigger and are 3 way unported. They don't rely on reflections to artificially reprodice bass and are designed to be mounted clear from any wall.

So for a mixing environment using 2 way ported you need to put them close to a back wall. They should fire down the length - not the width - of the room. Try to get them at least 1.5 meters apart and with you mid way between to form an equilateral triangle (so you'd sit just under 1.5 meters away). If you can you should be seated 1/3 in to the room so there should be 2/3s of the length behind you. Many mix studios though just don't have the space to do this.

On a 2 way the tweeter/small speaker should be in line with your ears. Most 2 ways are designed so that the tweeter is above the bass driver i.e. they are not meant to put on their sides.

You'll probably have to put your console/desk in front of the monitors to help with the ergonomics of mixing. The above distances may mean that you can sit the monitors on the bridge. Regardless of where you put them anything in front and below - including the surface of the desk and the console - can produce reflections and comb filtering so try to minimise it. You might find moving the monitors to the edge of the desk/bridge may help reduce this. If you can put hardware in a floor mounted rack and the pc on the floor.




This post has been edited by tonymiro: Apr 13 2012, 11:26 AM


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

Be friends on facebook with us here.

We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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