This discussion, my point, is going nowhere. I've made my point and belief. I rest my case. I'll see you in other forums. Peace out.



This post has been edited by thefireball: Jul 3 2010, 08:56 PM

Lots of people says God takes away, oh no something bad happened and He created it so He must of caused it.

They don't see Him as also creating everything. You are given the gift of life.
Destruction and chao is human error, but saying that...

The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

While the death of the innocent maybe unfair in your eyes, they didnt have to be created in the first place. There's a bigger picture it affects, it also affects other people still alive, would we be so helpful to each other and giving if everything was just handed down on a plate? If there wasn't staving people, pain and suffering, would we be so greatful for what we have in our own lifes. You can either live life to the fullest or drone though in a downer. It shows what most just take for granted day by day.

Angels requested a world to live in, the body is just a shell for the soul. That soul may of lived on before and after the death of the body.
Man was created in the image of God. We where given control over our own world and animals, etc. The devil was even once an angel, who thought he could become a god and was casted out of heaven. We can either be robots following orders or have free will and make mistakes. Even though we make mistakes we can still live and learn from them. God simply asks for our friendship and is willing to forgive, if we take it or ignore it is up to us wheither it be at the gates of heaven or here on earth (you just can't fake the friendship).

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jul 3 2010, 10:10 PM

Yes, other people die and I am happy my life hasn't been randomly selected by God to compensate for his overwhelmingly generous gift of life. Can anybody actually prove that any of what we see isn't evolution? Why go around preaching in the name of God as if it were the only truth, when it is nothing but speculative? If I am going to make an argument, I'd be pretty certain I'm right before telling others to follow me.

I am not convincing you to become atheist or anything of the sort, I am just telling you that you might not want to live your life by rules that *might* be based on fiction and eloquent diction.

Yeah right, God is great because he gave us free will, yet everything is gods will, just in case we wouldn't know what to do

Reminds me of my parents giving me the choice to stay at home in the summer holidays... YEAH RIGHT xD

And nobody hasn't answered my question... If it is God's will who lives or dies, based on randomly distributed disease, why did God conceive the human immune system?

Meh the whole purpose thing is exactly why I would reach for a shotgun with a maniacal grin if I where allowed into heaven. It seems that plan is to endlessly torment human beings. Be it mentally or physically. It is too silly for me to believe tho.

Alexi. I like you man. Debating the religious anywhere but youtube takes extreme amounts of patience.

Thanks dude "The whole purpose thing is exactly why" during the Renaissance people like Luther and Calvin broke through a less decorational and fanatic faith that is Protestantism. Religion isn't about God, it's about mankind. Knowing that God has plans for you doesn't exactly make you want to get up in the morning and go to work after breakfast (I presume, I am only 16 after all). That's also why people like Michaelangelo (not Batio) painted a painting where Man was practically *touching* God. Human beings may ascend into the Divine at own initiative and effort. The Renaissance was, for religion, the first step into a faith which isn't nonsensical and dogmatic. The final step is for human beings to cease to believe in a superior being, but themselves.

We should have a chat, but seeing as you agree with me to some extent would make the chat self-indulgent as opposed to "stimulating"

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 4 2010, 01:07 AM

You assume it is random

I assume it is random because God is benevolent... Why would he select certain individuals to feel the wrath of evil, to compensate for all the good in the world. I assume it is random because I do not want to think my grandfather passed away because God wanted him to. He didn't want to die, and I didn't want him to either. This sounds cliché, but if God *does* exist, I would consider him a benevolent being, hence the assumption, I repeat, of random affliction rather than systematic extermination in the name of balance of good and evil.

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 4 2010, 01:45 AM

Because he is God and he can choose to do whatever he wants whenever he wants to
If you are mad because he choose to take loved ones-what you are doing is making your will to be God and make those kind of decisions
violating the first command that you shall not have any Gods before me - this includes your self

Did your grandfather believe in God?

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Jul 4 2010, 01:52 AM

I live in Norway. I respect Norwegian law, not Swedish. In this case... God is Swedish. I am Norwegian. His concern is not mine, unless he - or any believers - can convince me of his existence. I am not saying he doesn't exist, I never have. I am saying there is no proof. I do not follow a theory that doesn't have enough proof to be true.

In any case, if I can't worship myself, that means Muslims can't worship Allah, and Jews can't worship Yahvé. Who's right? Do Muslims go to Christian Hell and Christians go to Jewish Hell? Seems awfully complicated, so I'd rather focus on the tangible and understandable, especially my school-work and guitar playing.

Oh, and I was too young to ask my grandfather about his belief. Maybe if God had *purposefully* given him a few more years we would both know.

This post has been edited by Alexiaden93: Jul 4 2010, 01:56 AM

Maybe God wants you to seek him yourself

Yet maybe he doesn't.

let me ask you to do something
If there is a God , could he show himself to somebody without revealing himself to others
Ask him to show himself to you and if he doesn't I will zip my lip

Happy Independence Day mate. You may keep your lip unzipped for my concern. Oh and yes he could show himself uniquely to one individual. I guess the others are just not *meant* to know of his existence, or so God has planned. I believe those *others* are what we call atheists, which I believe have a place in God's creation as well. After all, our belief - or should I say lack of belief - is also predestined by the Architect.

I do not believe in any god, and think that religion does more harm than good. I do however belive people should be "good", morality and all that.

I consider myself "GNOSTIC" which is very different from "AGNOSTIC". The Gnostic world view is focused on the attaining of knowledge as the means and method of salvation. Most Gnostics were burned at the stake as heretics hundreds of years ago. The Templars (Knights Templar) were the last big sect of Gnostics. They were wiped out too. Gnostics focus on individual experience and knowledge and don't really buy in to the idea of "church" as such. In the Gnostic view, any time you have two or more believers, where they meet becomes a church and stops being one when they leave.

Basically Gnostics are not fans of traditional Dogma and church heirarchy. Which is partly why they were hunted to extinction. If you have heard of the "Gnostic Gospels" then you know something about the Gnostic Bible. Gnostics accept all of the Apocryphal and banned books that are not in the current King James compilation of the Bible.

It all comes down to you and your personal relationship with what you understand as "God" as far as Gnostics are concerned. Oh, and we don't believe in Hell.

Todd

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 4 2010, 05:06 AM

there are no morals apart from the existence of God
if there is no God we are all products of the universe
if we are all products of the universe , there is no difference between Hitler and mother Teresa
we all become the stuff in the box- just doing whatever the box created us to be ,
man sets morality ,but the problem with that is , if man sets that ,what happens if man gets to the point that he thinks it is moral to commit murder?

What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Oh wait... Killing in the name of belief is no crime. Those Men of Cloth were but Merry Middle-Men killing for the Greater Good. Somehow, I find it amazing how the modern legislative, executive and judiciary system of, say, France, which is 100% neutral to religion, is doing so well! I mean after hundreds of years without spiritual guidance, murder has not yet turned into an obligation in France...

Atheist murder is purely speculations. Religious murder is historical fact.


You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief...

Alexiaden, why is "evolution" granted superiority and not scrutinized as much as christianity? Darwin himself recanted his beliefs towards the end of his life, but still the 5000 lbs elephant in the room with evolution is how come there is no inter-species fossil record for the proof of evolution? Where did the "bang" come from in the big bang? If I blow up a pile of bricks will it beciome a school? If I take all the parts of a intricate Swiss watch and detonate an explosion will it explode into a perfectly working watch? Yet evolutionist will tell us that is what happen with us! But I digress... I disagree with the premise of your question, that it is "God's will" that some should die and other's live, the statistics are staggering 100% of folks who live, die eventually In the begininning it was God's intention for mankind to enjoy Him and live forever but man decided he was smarter than God and chose to reject that friendship and disobey Him. It is sin that brings death, seperation from God and all the evils we presently see in our world. This is why God gives us warnings about sin, it is so destructive, sin isn't bad because it's forbidden , sin is bad because it's so destructive. Love demands a choice or else love without choice is rape, that's what the whole purporse of the tree in the Garden of Eden was all about God wants folks to choose to love Him, be with Him. We are free to make that choice. God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, the real proof of christianity is in the fact that if you go to His grave He ain't there. Was He a nut/lunatic? Was he a liar? or was He God? From your question though you make a good point in that a loving creator made our bodies in such a way as to prolong life and heal itself . I hope this sheds some light on your question.




Where do we get this "'code of morality"? What is good and what is evil, bad? Who decides? Stalin believed that too, of course he had to 'convince' several million folks of that as well but i suppose he was 'good' to his dog if he fed him. What harm has religion done in your opinion?