2/3 Of Millenials Have No Idea What This Image Means, Sadly. Options

[Todd Simpson]

I saw this on facebook and it made me think of Ken. I saw ken posted something similar on facebook and now another friend posted something that I found shocking. 2/3 of Millenials have no idea what this picture means. Before we blame the "indoctrination of the liberal elite through public school", let's realize that something this important should be shared by parents. It's not the job of the state to tell kids everything they need to know. Parents are doing a CRAP job of educating their own children evidently. If this image means nothing to most Millenials, it's a travesty of parenting imho.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/05/06/a...u3vwZZJ0iG1vlek

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[klasaine]

It's why we Jews say "never forget".

Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.

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[Mertay]

Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.

My cousin's band covered a song which was written about it (original song also in Turkish), yeah it didn't sell well but the fans did like it.

If we can forget about what might be the most organised evil act in modern times, I assume everything else, including the Armenian Genocide, US slavery - etc will be totally lost.

off topic; It won't be sincere if it comes from me but do make atleast a websearch on why Turkey refers the event as a tragedy instead of a holocaust and why some countries don't accept it as holocaust. I'll share a quick info which Armenians also agree on; very few actually died cause of a person or a weapon...

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This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 3 2019, 04:01 PM

[Todd Simpson]

I was just reading about Turkey and Denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's evidently a thing in Turkey to just deny that 1.5 million people were killed by the ottomans. Who knew? Everywhere else in the world it's just a historical fact. It's actually against the law in some countries to call it anything but Genocide.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/03...XgZM/story.html
There are wads of sources on this. It's become nearly part of Turkish culture to just deny it almost ever happened.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/eu...n-genocide.html

And speaking of profiting...Many of the leaders of the new Turkish republic — but not Ataturk — were primary architects of the genocide, and some grew rich off the confiscation of Armenian properties.
Same way the Nazis funded themselves by confiscating all Jewish money/property/etc. when Jews were declared no longer to be Citizens and bereft of any rights under statehood.
My Dad never mentioned this as I don't think he knew about it. I didn't
know much about it til I googled it. We have blood on our hands as well.We don't call it a "genocide" but we did wipe out nearly 10 million Native Americanswhen we sorta showed up and declared this "our land", then we started making laws about who could legally enter "our land". Geesh. So there is plenty of blame to go around.Nobody here calls this a 'genocide", we just refer to it as our "Manifest Destiny". It sounds much more palatable.

My cousin's band covered a song which was written about it (original song also in Turkish), yeah it didn't sell well but the fans did like it.



off topic; It won't be sincere if it comes from me but do make atleast a websearch on why Turkey refers the event as a tragedy instead of a holocaust and why some countries don't accept it as holocaust. I'll share a quick info which Armenians also agree on; very few actually died cause of a person or a weapon...

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 4 2019, 04:42 AM

[Mertay]

Nobody here calls this a 'genocide", we just refer to it as our "Manifest Destiny". It sounds much more palatable.

Term Genoside legally was established during (or after, must check) WW2. The Holocaust was simply too extreme to be considered to justify as a "mass killing" so a term had to be determined universally so it would never happen again. If a country commits genocide today, they would have to compensate much more than simply losing a war they started.

So if you confuse the term "genocide" as "mass killing", then pretty much every nation in the world would be responsible historically for something they did. It must be strictly aimed to eliminate a race or specific group of people (not about a number either) to cause a genocide, which can bring an argument to the table if that was really the motivation of the killers (Americans vs native Indians or Ottoman vs Armenians).

The most recent example of Genocide I know of; When isis progressed further into Syria, they deliberately captured a group of people calling themselves "yezidi" (I don't know the english name of them) not allowing them to reach the Turkish boarder when trying to escape.

Yezidi's are comparable to a typical tribe, they have their own language, religion and population not greater than 1000's. They probably hated them the most, even more than Americans cause they didn't believe in 1 of the 3 great religions. Elderes were killed immediatly, young were killed if they didn't accept to change religion+identity, children/woman were either married or found an alternate family to live with...So it wasn't "civilian massacre" either which is a different level of war crime, isis goal was to exterminate a culture complete from history.

edit;

I was just reading about Turkey and Denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's evidently a thing in Turkey to just deny that 1.5 million people were killed by the ottomans. It's become nearly part of Turkish culture to just deny it almost ever happened.

This for example is plain wrong, of-course Turkey recognizes their death. This is why I recommend reading something that reflects both sides of opinions objectively, cause its easy to bump into the smell of anti-turk/muslim ideology behind too...

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This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 4 2019, 02:28 PM

[Todd Simpson]

I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/eu...n-genocide.html
Worried that the Christian Armenian population was planning to align with Russia, a primary enemy of the Ottoman Turks, officials embarked on what historians have called the first genocide of the 20th century: Nearly 1.5 million Armenians were killed, some in massacres like the one here, others in forced marches to the Syrian desert that left them starved to death.

The genocide was the greatest atrocity of the Great War. It also remains that conflict’s most bitterly contested legacy, having been met by the Turkish authorities with 100 years of silence and denial. For surviving Armenians and their descendants, the genocide became a central marker of their identity, the psychic wounds passed through generations.

It's just a matter of historical record and yet for some reason, parts of the Turkish Government and even Turkish educational system sorta act like those people just died by themselves. It's somewhat similar to Southerners trying to deny that we killed scores upon scores of Slaves or denying that we killed millions of indians. Some people still deny all of it for various reasons. Some people deny that nazis killed 6 million jews. There is plenty of Denial to go around

Term Genoside legally was established during (or after, must check) WW2. The Holocaust was simply too extreme to be considered to justify as a "mass killing" so a term had to be determined universally so it would never happen again. If a country commits genocide today, they would have to compensate much more than simply losing a war they started.

So if you confuse the term "genocide" as "mass killing", then pretty much every nation in the world would be responsible historically for something they did. It must be strictly aimed to eliminate a race or specific group of people (not about a number either) to cause a genocide, which can bring an argument to the table if that was really the motivation of the killers (Americans vs native Indians or Ottoman vs Armenians).

The most recent example of Genocide I know of; When isis progressed further into Syria, they deliberately captured a group of people calling themselves "yezidi" (I don't know the english name of them) not allowing them to reach the Turkish boarder when trying to escape.

Yezidi's are comparable to a typical tribe, they have their own language, religion and population not greater than 1000's. They probably hated them the most, even more than Americans cause they didn't believe in 1 of the 3 great religions. Elderes were killed immediatly, young were killed if they didn't accept to change religion+identity, children/woman were either married or found an alternate family to live with...So it wasn't "civilian massacre" either which is a different level of war crime, isis goal was to exterminate a culture complete from history.

edit;

This for example is plain wrong, of-course Turkey recognizes their death. This is why I recommend reading something that reflects both sides of opinions objectively, cause its easy to bump into the smell of anti-turk/muslim ideology behind too...

I agree. We should be aware of our history as the human race. Even when that history is repulsive. I'm a white, southern, male. My great grandparents lived in a time when blatant racism and homophobia were just normal. Even today the scars of hate are still with us here in the south. Many here feel that the Civil war is not over and that blacks should be kept separate and not allowed to marry whites. It's sad.

I guess the term "attempted Genocide" fits Mertays definition more closely as the Nazis didn't succeed in killing every jew in Europe, just most of them. It's a sickening part of our past as citizens of this little planet. Slavery is also sickening. But we should teach our young people about these things in the home IMHO. They are part of who we are.

We were taken there on a school trip. Once in primary school and once in middle school. Half of the class felt uneasy walking there and 4 kids, me included, nearly fainted seeing horrors of that place.

In my opinion, it's about forgiving but not forgetting. And about learning lesson from others' mistakes. Those who committed these atrocities are long gone and can't be put to justice in any way. Same goes for Poland who suffered from WWII the most, since we were the reason it broke out in the first place. The Nazi Germans demolished our land, most notably beautiful Warsaw city and right after the war the Soviets stole whatever valuable was still left. Yet radical right wing people are still yapping about how the Germany owes us the war reparations, apparently never paid. Looking back at the history, the armies often destroyed the lands they invaded. Ancient Greece, Macedonia, Egypt, Persia, Rome, Attila, Cortes, Karl XII, the Europe's invasions in Northern America or the Soviets' genocide of the military and academics of Poland. WWII is no different and it's natural for the invaders to oppress and destroy the people they consider troublesome. Auschwitz is relatively modern and because the Third Reich lost the war, they had no chance to remove its traces from existence, so it's a genocide that could be recorded in great detail but it certainly wasn't the first one. The USA ruined Japan with just 2 nukes and that hit everyone in range, instead of hitting a specific group of people (like the military or industrial zones).

In my opinion, we should keep in mind what happened and learn our lesson. My friend's grandfather survived in Auschwitz and moved to Serbia to start a family. He kept saying that we can't change the past but we can shape our future. Personally I believe in the dialogue and diplomacy because holding grudges and seeking vengeance won't get us anywhere but will lead to repeating the mistakes of the past. Talking to each other causes us to understand each other's point of view, culture, etc. War chooses no nation. Conflict comes from misunderstanding and lack of mutual communication. My mom used to say when I and my brother were younger and had quarrels that the wiser one should give up. Now that I'm older I know that this can be applied to more than just regular siblings' fights.

Sabaton made a song about Auschwitz if anyone's interesting:



One of the reasons the world heard about it was Witold Pilecki, a soldier that agreed to get sent there, gather detailed intel on the proceedings and organize the resistance within the camp.
A Polish patriotic band made a song about WWII and among other topics, Cavalry Captain Pilecki. I couldn't find a version with English subs but maybe you'll like it nonetheless

Wow! Never seen this one before and it's great!! Im sorry to hear that creating it was so uspetting but I can understand it. I was going to suggest we all work on some sort of musical project that could raise awareness of imporant things in history like the Holocaust, Slavery, etc. There is so much un truth on youtube about these issues. It would be good to put some real truth forward. If you ever think you are up for it, please elet me know

Yes that's a very good idea - it wouldn't surprise me since they are constantly touching upon the topic. For example they do have the track "Inmate 4859" which talks about Auschwitz.

I have also done one myself. It took me more than a month to get mentally stable after researching for the video - so I don't see myself to doing it again in the near future:

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 6 2019, 02:01 AM

[jstcrsn]

I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) .

you Know you pushed to keep political discussion of this website , you should stop saying on thing and doing another, about throwing in a cheap little dig about fox being antisemitic when they were one of the few news organization that stood with Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem even though the three presidents before trump said they would , when Trump actually moved it

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[Todd Simpson]

Easy there, I did NOT say Fox was Anti Semitic. Please re read the post I was talking about people who slam the New York Times. It's quite simply the best paper we have in print. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). Yet I hear Fox complaining about them, and I hear anti semitic smears against the times such as "jews run the press". I'm not conflating the two.

This post is about history. Not politics. It's true that it's political history, but it's not talking politics. No mention of policy, no mention of trump, dems, repubs, etc. Started talking about concentration camps and genocide. Not talking policy and politics.

you Know you pushed to keep political discussion of this website , you should stop saying on thing and doing another, about throwing in a cheap little dig about fox being antisemitic when they were one of the few news organization that stood with Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem even though the three presidents before trump said they would , when Trump actually moved it

I was trying not to get in to politics. This thread was about history. But since you asked for an example... I am taken aback that you don't think FOX is Far Right wing. They define Far Right wing. here is an artiicle on each point for ya. The New York Times is still the most respected newspaper in the country. Always has been. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). People who don't like the times usually don't like it because they do actual journalism. Unlike say, Fox, who does punditry.I do follow fox news and it's the most unbalanced, biased, propogandized news source currently available on a cable or broadcast. It's little more than our version of Russia Today. To wit....
Anti semitism and Fox newshttps://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/1...-shooter/223423
Far Right Wing Propaganda and Fox newshttps://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-...-tom-rosenstiel

None of the sources I mention will have much impact though as I've noticed folks that like Fox just like it for what it is and that's fine.

But again, this thread was about HISTORY. About the picture of a notorious concentration camp and the fact that 2/3 of young folks could not recognize the image. I found that disturbing. It's that headline that got me to read the article in the first place The thread has been taken far afield from the original post which was just about millenials not knowing what a certain historical image represented.

Just for some balance because I really don't want to enter into another big political debate here.

As far as Fox news goes. I do not believe they can be associated in any way with antisemitism or a far right ideology and I also don't believe you can show examples of either.
If you follow any news from Fox you would find that their coverage is actually quite balanced, and I am not talking about op/eds which are indistinguishable from news on most other news outlets in the country that have also become propaganda mills for progressives and the Democrat party, which by the way has at least two members of congress that have expressed antisemitic views recently.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 6 2019, 10:15 PM