Copy Kills Music Options

[Canis]

I'm gonna try not to go on another rant about how I hate todays "top-charts"
But.. I think more people buy metal and rock, then say todays "hits", since these "hits" with Justin TimberFAIL and stuff like that gets overplayed on radio and TV. Who wanna pay for it when you can turn on the radio and hear those songs five times every hour?
We got a program on TV here in Norway called "Svisj". Basicly, a list of songs scrolls through the lower end of the screen with a code. You take your mobile, send the code via SMS to the station, and that song get a vote... This way, of course there's only like three or four songs playing over, and over, and over, and over again..... (Thank god there's Metal-Svisj once a week!).

Back to my point, we who listen to Metal, Rock, Blues and other kind of real music, enjoy the music for what it is: Art =) And by that, we like to have the physical CD in our collection.

Another little positive side to buy the real deal: The smell. Oh my god, the smell of a newly bought CD of one of your favorite bands =)

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This post has been edited by Canis: May 20 2008, 08:58 PM

[Matt_00]

I don't think the internet can be controled AT ALL! Any provider that would block those ports would immediately lose a lot of customers, they would just switch to a provider that doesn't block any ports, and trust me, there would always be providers that offer completely unblocked access to the net. I also don't want a controlled internet like that, just as I don't want any copy protection on cd's, that is nonsense in my opinion. Any cd that can be played can also be recorded and copied, period, all those copy protections are crap that only drive more people into downloading. In my opinion there is only one way to go: bands have to deliver quality albums (I am also not interested in spending 15 or 20 Euros on a cd that only has one good song), the music industry has to adept to a completely new system, using the internet with all its benefits, and the fans have to realize about the value of music again.

Agreed, I have bought many a LP for one song after they did away with 45's. I also find nowaday there are so many one hit wonders throwing out 12-14 song albums for the sake of filling up space with garbage. I am curious as well to see where things are at in the next few years it seems now the people driving the production of electronics are really at the helm and the music industry is constantly playing catch up.

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[Spreedmaster]

Another little positive side to buy the real deal: The smell. Oh my god, the smell of a newly bought CD of one of your favorite bands =)

OH MAN! I love that smell!

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[Smikey2006]

To Marcus.. I was discussing with my friend today this idea of downloading music. He stands by the fact that getting music for free is not a bad thing.. mainly because he has never been into music at a time when music purchasing was nessisary, his arguement is that related to something you said, he says that because music can be gotten for free and less cd's are being purchased that concert prices and t-shirt prices are going up. He said that it seems like a balance to him. He believes that he has gotten his music for free,, which got him into the bands he listens to, and because of this when he sees a band he likes playing a show near him he goes and buys a t-shirt, and he believed that this idea of paying more for t-shirts and more for concerts balances out the lack of cd sales.. whats your opinion on this?

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[blindwillie]

Spot on Marcus.
Interesting to hear someone who surely is effected by Internets bright and dark sides talk about it in a rational way without the "they are stealing my money" approch.

I've been on the listening side since Deep Purple and Black Sabbath (yepp, I'm that old :/ ).

You are right about buying albums in the old days. It was something very special and you knew months ahead which records would be released.
As it is now all this drowns in a flood of similar sounding artists, movies, games and all other kind of entertainment we "have to" consume. Ofc no one is forcing us to do it, but we feel we want to. I mean, back in the days there was a few, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath. Then a few others came around. Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Budgie, Ten Years After, Montrose, AC/DC... Still not a bunch. We was hunting for new finds, discovered odd bands in odd import stores. Today... well, just look at metal. There is more sub-genres in metal than the number of great bands then. Which is great in many ways, but I get stuffed, can't press in another bite. For me the "band-hunting" nowadays consists of going to small, obscure clubs in my town and listen to local bands. Often they have more urge to play than skill to play but some are real good (one of them entering the final of a nationwide talent contest this Saturday which is really an achievment considering they are the only metal band to get there along with cute "Idol 200x" looking singers )

Next thing is that I don't want to play CD's or DVD's anymore. I want to play my media wherever it is possible. In my computers (quite a few), phones, Ipods, the car, the media center, the XBOX, stream from home to wherever I am... everywhere it's possible. And I dont want it limited by artifical (DRM) restriction. I don't want to put it up on Pirate Bay but I do want to share it with my closest friends like before "Hey! Listen to this. What a find!"
But in contradiction to that I want my media "time proof". I want to be sure that I still have access to, and still can play all my media in , 10 and 25 years. Which requires a physical media I guess, or a more inventive way of distributing media to the market.
And I want it now. The technology allows me to search and find anything I'm interested in and get it delivered to me instantly, almost wherever I am.

Third. The way the media companies treats me as a longtime customer, to be frank, *really* p*** me off.
Stuffing audio and video content with rootkits, DRM, commercials, trailers and FBI warnings. Re-issues, re-masters, special edition, directors cut, directors cut special edition, 10 year anniversary directors's cut special edition. No thanks.
I more or less stopped buing music in the 90-ies when I realized that the overpriced CD's would never get a reasonable priceing and from that it just gotten worse.

And, finally I guess, I could go on forever. I truely belive that you (as an artist) could be better of with another marketing model. I do belive that there are other ways to distribute media content that satisfies me as a customer and you as an artist. To hear lawyers claiming that every artist have the right to live on their work.... please. No one have that right. Knowing that for a CD that I buy for 15 euro you get something like 0.4 euro. Doesn't compute.
I'd rather see that you get 4 euro and the media moguls 0.4 euro. Sounds more reasonable to me. Another way to pay an artist is to give a part of the net income. But before the net income is set, they go through the "Hollywood accounting" phase. This is so stupid.
It's the same for say farmers. They get "this" amount for "that" but when I buy it in the store the price is 1000% higher. Who got the profit? Not the farmer.

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[ballistic31]

I dont realy buy music anymore cause..To me there is just to much music out there now , It seems that most but,, not all bands put out 2 cds and a box set every year lol ..That and this huge cover tune thing going on drives me crazy . I almost wonder if they just are not all tapped out of there own ideas for new stuff.. That and it seems most but not all sound about the same in some respects ...So for me im just waiting for the new fresh band to come out that realy blows me away...I mean no disrespect for any band out there makeing music,, just nothing latly has realy grabbed me with the wow factor in a long time.. As far as downloading music not a chance here i have to much money tied up in my computers to risk it.. thats mu happy thoughts on this matter..I will probly have a im with a warning tomorrow seems everytime i open my big mouth someone hates me for it cause i offended them in some way So chil and relax its just a opinion...and was not directed at you or anyone or band in general lol ..

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[Marcus Siepen]

Thanks for all your posts, it is really interesting to read about all your opinions

@Smikey: Unfortunately your friends way of thinking is very wrong. First of all, let me say it again (hehe, yeah, I know, I mentioned this before): Music is not something that is for free! Producing an album is expensive... depending on how good the studio is and how long you spend in it, it can be VERY expensive, and this is money that the band has to spend. It is just like... I don't know... building a car, this costs money, so obviously the car is not for free, if you want it you have to pay for it, otherwise the company that built it will go bankrupt. I don't know if your friend is still in school or if he has a job, just ask him how he would like it if he would be working, but nobody would buy his products because people found a way to get it for free? I doubt he would like this thought. And this thing about paying the band by buying a shirt and coming to a gig. Unfortunately it is not that easy. A newcomer band has absolutely NO chance to survive like this. New bands are not big enough to go on a big tour as a headliner, they either play a few gigs that can't make them enough money to survive without album sales, or they open up for a big band, like that they don't earn any money (the support bands don't really get money form ticket sales), if they have bad luck they will even have to pay to be able to open up for that big band. You can already see this effet in todays music scene, where are the bands that grow over some years, that get bigger and bigger, that keep releasing good albums? All I see is some big bands that are there since many years already, and some new bands that release an album today, and that are gone again tomorrow.


@ blindwillie: I absolutely agree with you in many of your points. DRM and all those copy protections are pure crap! If I buy a cd I want to be able to listen to it on any cd/dvd player, I want to be able to copy the songs to my iPod, to my computers, to cds for my car, and I don't want any restrictions, after all I paid for the cd. I also don't really like all those special editions. Well, it is ok if they are all released on the very same day, so I can go to a shop, check them all out and then decide for the version that I like most, but of course this is not how it is working. Of course first only the regular version is released, and then, some weks later, all the blown up versions are released step by step, trying to make us buy the same album over and over again...

But I would like to comment on something that funny enough was not mentioned so far... the price of cds. I heard this many times already, people complaining about high prices of cds. Those people always come with the argument that back then vinyl albums were only half the price of what he have to pay for cds today. Well, yes, vinly albums were only half the price, but those people froget something... vinyl albums were also only half as long, the capacity for those albums was about 35 minutes, while most of the cds released today have between 60-75 minutes. So for twice as much money you get twice as much music, this is still fine for me. The big problem of course is the quality of the music. As I said before I am also not willing to buy a cd for 15 Euros if I only like a single song, this would be wasted money.

As Ballistic said, there are many bands that release 2 albums per year, and in between those two albums they are on tour of course... so now I wonder, how the hell is this supposed to work? How is the result supposed to sound good? Writing good songs just takes some time, of course I can write a new song every day, like this I could record a new album every 2 weeks, but would those albums be good ones? I doubt But many bands have no other choice, as I said before they can't survive by just playing gigs, they HAVE to keep releasing albums to make a bit money at least, they can't take the time that they would need to write 10 great songs and put them on an album, with luck they write one or two good ones, the rest will be fillers, but at least they can release another album and go on tour again...

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[Saoirse O'Shea]

Great topic Marcus,
and pretty much endorse what you've already said.

But just to add from a slightly different angle perhaps the large labels need to take some responsibility. Not only were they very slow in responding to the Net - as has already been said - but they have encouraged the uptake of mass consumption/consumerism AND helped encouraged the idea of (POP) music as a short lived, disposable commodity.

To some extent that promotion has been with us for decades but arguably it's accelerated in the late 90s with the uptake of the Net and the development of TV programs that claim to be popular talent shows (American Idol, X Factor, Pop Idol, etc, etc, etc). Now record labels don't have to invest in and promote a group - just pick up and sign whoever wins this years competition. But because there will be a new competition next year, well lets not invest too heavily in what will become 'last year's model'. Music becomes not just a commodity but a short lived and disposable one and as such the consumer won't see any real value in it and also then won't see much harm in acquiring it by unpaid download/copying. It all becomes an issue of acquisition - you need to have the latest product but because it changes so quickly you can't keep pace (legally) and because it has such a limited time then why invest your own money in it? Here today and definitely gone tomorrow - everything becomes valueless.

Within this vicious circle you now have the Net and MP3 players. The former helps us access and distribute material on a massive scale and, as has already been said, its very ephemerality and lack of embodiment just encourages us to see it as 'nothing'. Digital material has no 'real' form and so no 'real' substance and as such is a 'nothing' that can be infinitely substituted for yet more 'nothing'. MP3 players give us the ability to do this on a massive scale - no longer is there any physical involvement; down load, set the player on shuffle and you don't have to get up and change the record. You don't physically have to come in to contact with the record so again it is winnowed out in to 'nothing'.

Furthermore this winnowing out and mass consumption is supported by the very scale of what we can store. A big record collection in my youth was 1000 lps but now we talk about big in terms of how many gig the player has. A big capacity now is 80-160Gb - what's that about 20-40,000 tracks or 60-120,000 minutes of music (1-2000 hours, 42-84 days, 1.5-3 months of continual play) ? Never mind finding the time to listen to it all where do you even find the time to load it all in any meaningful manner? Seriously, when I was young and bought records, just the same as you it was an event - something to look forward to and enjoy. Something that you did in an informed way but now many people just 'fill' their MP3 in order to have lots of content. My daughter does that - she fills her MP3 with anything just so that she can say it's full!

Great line in an episode of the BBC comedy 'Gavin and Stacy' where the middle aged uncle announced he had bought an 80 Gig Ipod. He then looked a little chagrined when he went on to admit he only had 70 songs to put on it but he continued to explain that it had the capacity for 1000s more .

Anyway, record labels have, to my mind, so far blamed the consumer for the mass consumption and commodification of music but they have also been instrumental in it. Maybe it's time for them to come up with some answers rather then just continually demanding legislation and passing the buck .

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[Marcus Siepen]

I absolutely agree with you Tony, you are 100% right, of course the music industry is enforcing all this by focusing on all those casting shows, there is no building up a new artist anymore. When we signed our first record deal in 87 everything was different, we had the chance and the time to grow as a band, if you get a deal today you have exactly one chance, you release one album and either you sell big time or you are dropped immediately. There is no growing anymore, just overnight success that lasts for one or two years, or immediate flops.

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[black and white]

Regardless of why, if you take something that is not rightfully yours, that is stealing, and in most places, illegal. The problem is justifying why it is OK to take something, (in this case music) that you have not paid for. This is a behavioral problem and really is an ethics issue. It is pretty sad that people think it is OK to steal. Sorry, that is just one persons opinion. People often work very hard to produce the material on a record and to just take it without due compensation...IMHO, that is just flat our wrong. The gaming and software industries have similar problems.

On another note, Marcus, I found it interesting that you used Madonna as an example in your first post... Do you have a soft spot for her

And for the record, I do like madonna.

And Mark, your english is great............I am working in Spain currently so I understand being in another country and trying to get your point across. it can be tough.....you did great, keep it up.

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This post has been edited by black and white: May 21 2008, 01:17 PM

[visi0n]

I totally agree with you Marcus, there need to be something to stop this, but i cant think of anything what could stop this.. And about signing copied CD/DVD of your favorite band i will shame myself if you go to an artist/band to ask for signing that, i just dont got words for that... very shamefull.. but i exactly agree with you ..

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[Daniel Robinson]

I think what you said to smikey hits the nail on the head Marcus.


And frankly i think this is a direct result of the record industries want to control all of the pie over the last 2 or 3 decades. Back in the era of the Super groups...like Led Zepplin for instance. There was nobody...and i mean nobody who sounded like them. The record company worked hand in hand with them, allowed them time to find their sound. Build a following and over the long haul become one of the most popular groups in history.

The same holds true for alot of the long standing groups, Rush is another great example. They were allowed time to build their following etc and so forth.

Nowadays its a clone war, groups look to sell out to just be famous and on top. And this in turn is encouraged by the record industry. Its like the difference between commodities traders and long term stock traders. Commodity traders are looking for fast high yield returns and the long term investors are looking to be steady and strong over the long haul. The music industry mirrors this idea, now its not about long term investment but short term high yield turnover.

Lets use someone like Nickelback, when they hit the scence they were pretty unique in sound. Next thing you know another record company says...hey we need to have a group that sounds just like them. Its this constant keeping up with the Jones that is the heart of the matter.

The sad fact of the matter is if Led Zepplin came out today, they would have a shelf life of about 2 years and they would disappear never to be heard from again.

I think very much that the record industries lack of forsight about the change the internet would bring has compounded this problem. Artists scramble for a piece of the proverbial pie. And yet the record companies are unwilling to allow the "Artist" to be in control of their proverbial destiny. As muscians we know what we need to do from an artistic standpoint to draw in the fans that will stand the test of time. But the bean counters think they know whats best and the idea's of the artist are tossed to the wind.

You look at the people who have absolute control over their music and you find the people who stand the test of time. Alot of famous musicians down thru history have seen this as their saving grace and alot of them realized in order to be around for a long time they broke away from the corporate red tape and formed their own independent labels so they could have complete and utter artistic and monetary control of their music.

I don't know what the answer is to fix this big mess, but i do know that the industry is rapidly changing into a new creature all together and hopefully someone smart enough to take advantage of the wind of change will make things bright for all musicians.

Daniel

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[Marcus Siepen]

Lets use someone like Nickelback, when they hit the scence they were pretty unique in sound. Next thing you know another record company says...hey we need to have a group that sounds just like them. Its this constant keeping up with the Jones that is the heart of the matter.

The sad fact of the matter is if Led Zepplin came out today, they would have a shelf life of about 2 years and they would disappear never to be heard from again.

Again I absolutely agree. Nickelback is a perfect example, they hit the scene, delivered good albums, and suddenly you have tons of bands that sound EXACTLY like them, every record company on the planet wanted to have "a Nickelback".
And unfortunately, most likely you are right about Led Zeppelin, if they would be newcomers today, I seriously doubt that they would go through the same carreer as they did back in the 70's, same for Rush or whoever you want to name here. New bands today just don't have this time to grow anymore.

@ black and white: hehe, yeah, I think Madonna has some good songs

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[Jeff]

But I would like to comment on something that funny enough was not mentioned so far... the price of cds. I heard this many times already, people complaining about high prices of cds. Those people always come with the argument that back then vinyl albums were only half the price of what he have to pay for cds today. Well, yes, vinly albums were only half the price, but those people froget something... vinyl albums were also only half as long, the capacity for those albums was about 35 minutes, while most of the cds released today have between 60-75 minutes. So for twice as much money you get twice as much music, this is still fine for me. The big problem of course is the quality of the music. As I said before I am also not willing to buy a cd for 15 Euros if I only like a single song, this would be wasted money.

I must be in the minority, but I think CD's are a reasonably priced commodity. In fact, I bet if you compare the cost of CD's vs. the cost of albums in a given period of time, the CD's would be cheaper. I bought albums in the 70's and 80's at $10 - $15 bucks a shot. That was 20 - 30 years ago. The dollar was worth more back then. CD's can be had for an average of about $15 dollars today (US). I think they are a better deal and they also don't wear out like all of my old Jeff Beck, ZZ Top, Doobie Brothers, Zep, Boston, etc. collection. I still remember the scratches in the LP at parts where a cool guitar lead was. The needle would jump right over it and I would get pissed! Transcribing leads off of an LP was a lot more work.

I have the exact same experience that you do Marcus, in that I had to wait, save my money and buy albums at the local music store when they came out. I used to have a great collection of records and I bought them all. I still have never heard a good defense for anyone stealing or downloading music illegally. I feel bad for guys like you who work hard only to get your music stolen. Just about anyone who has a computer can go to iTunes or similar and listen to a sample of a song. They are free and about 15 - 20 seconds which is plenty of time to decide if someone likes the band enough to purchase their CD.

Sure I would love to go to a local Ferrarri dealer too and say, "hey I'll just take this car. I would buy it if I could afford it, but I'm sure you don't mind. I'm just checking it out. I'll justify my actions later."

Anyway, I'm looking forward to legally downloading my first Blind Guardian CD! I buy my songs off of iTunes nowdays because I got tired of storing CDs.

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[Aranox]

I would like to comment on a certain argument that I always see popping up in these discussions, and which always irritates me. Downloading music is just like taking something from a store without paying. In my opinion, there's a big difference. When you take something from a store, you actually remove it, and nobody that comes into the store after you can buy it. Therefore the owner would loose the item's value. When you download something, the owner doesn't actually loose anything he paid for (or made himself), other then maybe prevent gaining from a new sale.

That said, I still think you're right overall, and downloading music as an alternative to buying it is completely wrong.
However, in my case it was downloading that got me into buying. I was never really into music, but started downloading a bit, and started liking music a lot. I didn't have the money to buy many cd's, so I kept downloading for a while and discovered a lot of new music I liked. And when I got my first job I made up for it And never really stopped (My mother still sighs when she sees my collection )

I think there must be some kind of "perfect balance" between downloading and buying. I'm not talking legal here, but more in a moral sense: In my opinion, you should be able to check out new music, and share between friends. But be honest and reasonable, and buy that which you listen to a lot.
Unfortunately, humanity isn't known for being honest when they can get away with it

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[Fsgdjv]

I have to say that I mostly agree with you, Marcus. I download music, quite a lot even, but then I also buy even more music. Downloading an album is good to check a band out, just like copying tapes was back in the days, but downloading and not buying an album is disrespectful. Same thing goes for downloading leaks, it's not fair imo. But obviously I'm a huge hypocrite, so I still download leaks, except that I have a feeling of guilt when I do it and I buy the albums on the release dates. This still doesn't make it ok to do, but as I said, I'm a hypocrite when it comes to that.

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[OrganisedConfusi...]

I buy about 20 albums a month. I'm a bit of a fool with money but it's better than downloading the albums for free. I wish all the money went direct to the band but that can't happen I own 2500 albums (around), been to 302 concerts and bought hundreds of band t shirts lol. I support the bands I love. I think Pearl Jam have half the money I've ever earnt lol.

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[SamJ]

I buy about 20 albums a month. I'm a bit of a fool with money but it's better than downloading the albums for free. I wish all the money went direct to the band but that can't happen I own 2500 albums (around), been to 302 concerts and bought hundreds of band t shirts lol. I support the bands I love. I think Pearl Jam have half the money I've ever earnt lol.

Do you honestly have time to listen to all of those albums all the way through more than once?

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[Marcus Siepen]

Good point Jeff, cds for sure last much longer than vinyl, and yeah, learning solos was a lot of work back in the old days
But I have to say I like your idea about the Ferrari, I will look for a dealer and try to get one for free, I am sure he won't mind

@ Anarox: Your thought is not really correct. I earn money when somebody buys my cd. So yes, I lose money if you download it for free from the net. You are not stealing something physically, but you are getting something that you have to pay for, without doing so, you don't pay me for the work that I have done before. You have to see it like this, first I do my job, and I get paid for this only later, but if everybody downloads music, I don't get paid at all.

@ confusion: Pearl Jam? forget about them, invest your money in Blind Guardian from now on

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[audiopaal]

There is nothing like coming home putting on an album you've been waiting for and turn the volume up

I have to admit I download albums too, to see if I like it.
If I like it I buy it (..and I've bought maaaaaany albums )
I think I got about 1000 Cd's t the moment and a bunch of Compact Cassettes and LP's..
And I'm proud of my collection

If I don't like it, I'll delete it.
So for me the downloads is more of a preview, as it isn't as easy as before to go listen to them in a store.
In my younger days (not that I'm old..) it was fun walking down to my favourite music store and pick out cd's to listen too, but now there's fewer stores, usually crowded and most of the time they don't have the album I'm looking for.

So for me it's good to be able to download something to check it out.

I don't feel like I'm doing something illegal, although I probably am..

And I've bought all your albums Marcus so at least you can't be mad at me

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