Greece Referendum |
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Greece Referendum |
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Jul 22 2015, 02:57 AM |
Yes If we cut 50% of our work force (illegal immigrants) from picking produce, we would have about 50% LESS PRODUCE and simple supply and demand would dictate that the PRICE OF PRODUCE WOULD DOUBLE.
This would have knock on effects that would ripple through the entire economy. Every restaurant, grocery, etc. would be impacted. It would be effectively a brand new "tax" on produce. So yeah, not practical to pull those folks out. Not a myth, just an uncomfortable fact. I notice you mention I"m contradicting myself but I don't see where? Then you say something about "picking and choosing" the laws we will enforce. That much is very true, the Govt always has to make the choice on which laws it will enforce. It always has, it always will. We could stop all illegal immigration. We won't. We need them too badly for the reasons mentioned in addition to the crucial work they do in construction and other industries. So expect lots of "talking points" from politicians. But they know it's just hot air to pander to their base. We are "all immigrants" is a term I"m using to illustrate that we are in fact not native to this country at all. We were born here, like the children of many illegal aliens who are now (by that same token) full AMERICANS with the same rights we have. However. We are an "immigrant culture". This was not our land. We showed up and took it over. So we are the sons and daughters of immigrants. We are just Third/Fourth/Fifth generation immigrants. I come up with this stuff just by opening my mind I'm not sure how many generations back my immigrant roots go, but my family name was declared criminal so all Simpsons left their homeland in the gap between England and Scottland where the "reavers" lived. So yeah. We are all immigrants. Just a matter of how many generations. Fourth gen/fifth gen/etc. Even you, even your parents, and your kids P.P.S. I have had some questions about my semi strange personal beliefs so I wanted to provide a link about the broad strokes. I"m an "Anti Pauline" Essene of the Gnostic tradition. Many of who'm are vegetarian, but not me Here is a link to a site that explains things. http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm You must be referring to the tired old myth that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do. According to US census numbers, in agriculture the percentage of the work done by immigrants, legal and illegal is only slightly better than 50%. Maybe that meets your definition of the" bulk."
Also I am still not sure if you make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. In your first paragraph you say that you do , but then you seem to contradict yourself in the next paragraph. You also seem to think anything not said on the Statue of Liberty is to be included. It should also be noted that hiring folks in the country illegally and that have not been screened is in fact against the law. If the gov can pick and choose which laws it will recognize , then by example and precedence set, the people can do the same , right? And then I read this from you. " But then again, people like my relatives as well as we are all immigrants here, unless you live on a "Reservation." Since I was born in this country as were my parents , and their parents. I am a native born American my friend, and in no way shape or form an "immigrant." Descendant from immigrants yes, but an immigrant myself? Not by any stretch. Where do you come up with this stuff? This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 22 2015, 02:59 AM |
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Jul 22 2015, 07:03 PM |
Yes If we cut 50% of our work force (illegal immigrants) from picking produce, we would have about 50% LESS PRODUCE and simple supply and demand would dictate that the PRICE OF PRODUCE WOULD DOUBLE. This would have knock on effects that would ripple through the entire economy. Every restaurant, grocery, etc. would be impacted. It would be effectively a brand new "tax" on produce. So yeah, not practical to pull those folks out. Not a myth, just an uncomfortable fact. I notice you mention I"m contradicting myself but I don't see where? Then you say something about "picking and choosing" the laws we will enforce. That much is very true, the Govt always has to make the choice on which laws it will enforce. It always has, it always will. We could stop all illegal immigration. We won't. We need them too badly for the reasons mentioned in addition to the crucial work they do in construction and other industries. So expect lots of "talking points" from politicians. But they know it's just hot air to pander to their base. We are "all immigrants" is a term I"m using to illustrate that we are in fact not native to this country at all. We were born here, like the children of many illegal aliens who are now (by that same token) full AMERICANS with the same rights we have. However. We are an "immigrant culture". This was not our land. We showed up and took it over. So we are the sons and daughters of immigrants. We are just Third/Fourth/Fifth generation immigrants. I come up with this stuff just by opening my mind I'm not sure how many generations back my immigrant roots go, but my family name was declared criminal so all Simpsons left their homeland in the gap between England and Scottland where the "reavers" lived. So yeah. We are all immigrants. Just a matter of how many generations. Fourth gen/fifth gen/etc. Even you, even your parents, and your kids P.P.S. I have had some questions about my semi strange personal beliefs so I wanted to provide a link about the broad strokes. I"m an "Anti Pauline" Essene of the Gnostic tradition. Many of who'm are vegetarian, but not me Here is a link to a site that explains things. http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm Pure speculation that I disagree with. First of all that 50% is not comprised of only illegals. It is comprised of both legal and illegal immigrants and I believe the void created by removing the illegals could immediately be filled by those that come here legally on work visas. If we have to increase the number of work visas issued then so be it. The point being that anyone coming here to become a citizen or just to work must be properly screened. Filling positions with illegals is not fair to those who come here legally to work. You seem to contradict yourself by saying this "So I'm saying loud lout that illegal immigrants, are in fact still "immigrants." To me this may infer that your position is that there is no difference, hence the uncertainty. As far as picking and choosing laws to recognize. Just because that has been happening for years doesn't make it right. Our leaders take an oath to uphold ALL the laws, not just the ones they agree with. By your logic, we are all immigrants in this country because we are not indigenous if I understand you correctly. Then by that logic most of the human race would be labeled as immigrants wouldn't they, since you would be hard pressed to find a piece of land on the planet that wasn't taken over or moved onto from someone from somewhere else at some point. Didn't the American Indians come here from somewhere else as well such as across the Bering Straight from Asia and/or elsewhere? Wouldn't that make them immigrants as well? Furthermore, aren't we all out of Africa to begin with? And beyond that, wasn't the entirety of land on the planet at one time just one massive continent? Like I said before , we may be descendants of immigrants but if you were born in the country you live in and that your parents are citizens of, you are NOT an immigrant. Just to make it clear, I am in no way offended at being called an immigrant and I have absolutely nothing against immigrants. I am simply pointing out that it is incorrect to label someone living in the nation they were born and that their parents are citizens of as an immigrant. Who knows. Maybe someday there will be no such thing as nations and borders and maybe this would be a good thing and maybe not, but until then we do have these things and each nation has it's laws (many of which are far more strict than our own) which should either be followed or changed but not ignored. This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jul 22 2015, 07:21 PM |
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Jul 22 2015, 10:45 PM
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On to the real news . Blake Shelton and Miranda Lambert are getting a divorce
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Jul 24 2015, 07:26 AM |
Sadly we just couldn't make up the difference with "legal" immigrants. Just can't. Here is a handy reference.
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-farmers-...644/162082.html If you can find any sources other than fox, that say we could make up the gap, i'd love to see them I'd say that's pretty well open and shut. Up next! As far as the "difference". I'm saying, again, that there really isn't one. Immigrants, are immigrants. Just like our forefathers were when they came here and put all the native people in "Reservations". As for laws, yup, they take oaths to uphold them. Yet, they don't and never have. They will always focus on the ones that help them out politically. Always have, always will I like your idea that we are ALL in fact Immigrants of one kind or another ever since PANGEA (The original land mass) broke up. But you could say certain folks are indigenous after said breakup I agree also that flags/borders/etc. Is something that is losing it's meaning more and more. Tribalism is an idea that I think has had it's day. I think it's possible to be proud of ones heritage, no matter what it is, or entails, and still not be tribalistic. I vote that we spend a few hundred billion less on Jets/Tanks that are useless in our current wars, and a few hundred billion more on taking care of actual people. Funding a bit of life rather than spending half our GDP on Death is something I"d vote for Pure speculation that I disagree with. First of all that 50% is not comprised of only illegals. It is comprised of both legal and illegal immigrants and I believe the void created by removing the illegals could immediately be filled by those that come here legally on work visas. If we have to increase the number of work visas issued then so be it. The point being that anyone coming here to become a citizen or just to work must be properly screened. Filling positions with illegals is not fair to those who come here legally to work. You seem to contradict yourself by saying this "So I'm saying loud lout that illegal immigrants, are in fact still "immigrants." To me this may infer that your position is that there is no difference, hence the uncertainty. As far as picking and choosing laws to recognize. Just because that has been happening for years doesn't make it right. Our leaders take an oath to uphold ALL the laws, not just the ones they agree with. By your logic, we are all immigrants in this country because we are not indigenous if I understand you correctly. Then by that logic most of the human race would be labeled as immigrants wouldn't they, since you would be hard pressed to find a piece of land on the planet that wasn't taken over or moved onto from someone from somewhere else at some point. Didn't the American Indians come here from somewhere else as well such as across the Bering Straight from Asia and/or elsewhere? Wouldn't that make them immigrants as well? Furthermore, aren't we all out of Africa to begin with? And beyond that, wasn't the entirety of land on the planet at one time just one massive continent? Like I said before , we may be descendants of immigrants but if you were born in the country you live in and that your parents are citizens of, you are NOT an immigrant. Just to make it clear, I am in no way offended at being called an immigrant and I have absolutely nothing against immigrants. I am simply pointing out that it is incorrect to label someone living in the nation they were born and that their parents are citizens of as an immigrant. Who knows. Maybe someday there will be no such thing as nations and borders and maybe this would be a good thing and maybe not, but until then we do have these things and each nation has it's laws (many of which are far more strict than our own) which should either be followed or changed but not ignored. HEre is a very well sourced and well documented wikipedia entry (including Congressional sources/census data) that breaks down the details and benefits of Illegal migration. It's honestly a red herring. It helps us as a country FAR more than it hurts us. Politicians use it to stoke the fires of isolationism and fear and it's just pure hogwash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impa...e_United_States Here is a great article from TIME on why undocumented workers are "Good for Business". In fact, my own State could lose $1billion annually without enough migrant workers. http://business.time.com/2012/06/14/the-fi...migration-laws/ come on Todd , to speculate that The American Economy would fall apart because people have less Salad
This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 24 2015, 07:42 AM |
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Jul 24 2015, 10:38 AM |
Conservative California legislators always vote against any type of immigration reform. That's pretty elucidating. Change, any type, is bad for business ... from both ends.
Actually, no 'reform' ever makes it to the floor or a ballot. -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jul 24 2015, 07:35 PM |
Sadly we just couldn't make up the difference with "legal" immigrants. Just can't. Here is a handy reference. http://www.voanews.com/content/us-farmers-...644/162082.html If you can find any sources other than fox, that say we could make up the gap, i'd love to see them I'd say that's pretty well open and shut. Up next! As far as the "difference". I'm saying, again, that there really isn't one. Immigrants, are immigrants. Just like our forefathers were when they came here and put all the native people in "Reservations". As for laws, yup, they take oaths to uphold them. Yet, they don't and never have. They will always focus on the ones that help them out politically. Always have, always will I like your idea that we are ALL in fact Immigrants of one kind or another ever since PANGEA (The original land mass) broke up. But you could say certain folks are indigenous after said breakup I agree also that flags/borders/etc. Is something that is losing it's meaning more and more. Tribalism is an idea that I think has had it's day. I think it's possible to be proud of ones heritage, no matter what it is, or entails, and still not be tribalistic. I vote that we spend a few hundred billion less on Jets/Tanks that are useless in our current wars, and a few hundred billion more on taking care of actual people. Funding a bit of life rather than spending half our GDP on Death is something I"d vote for Open and shut? Not even close. I think you know as well as I do that there are plenty of sources (other than Fox) that show the gap could be made up immediately. There are millions of workers that could come here to work legally and I don't see why the ones here illegally couldn't have gone through the process of becoming a legal migrant worker as well. Like I said before, if we need to issue more work visas then so be it. Don't you think that a majority of those that come to work here illegally could have been screened and allowed to work here legally? Yes, The laws are ignored. This mess was created by the governments lack of enforcement. It allows a large number of criminals, many of which are violent, to slip through the cracks and puts the general public at risk especially in states on our southern border and it doesn't have to be that way. You like the idea of all people being immigrants because it is yours , not mine. I was simply following your logic. To me it is just ridiculous. Does it make you feel better about yourself because you have some kind of guilt about things that happened generations before you were born? If so, then forgive me if I don't share that guilt since I had absolutely nothing to do with it and there is nothing that I can do about it now. We look at history and recognize the mistakes made in the past and move on. If you want to consider yourself an immigrant then that's fine , but please speak for yourself. Funding death? You mean national security? The number one priority role of gov? Oh and BTW, we spend more on entitlements than national security and defense today. But hey we don't need a defense budget right? Nobody wants to harm us at all , heck the whole world just loves us right? Jets and tanks are useless? Really? Who knew? I doubt the folks on the business end of jets and tanks think they are useless. I believe like most folks do that immigration laws need to be reformed but until that reform makes the best possible effort to properly screen immigrants then it is not reform at all. It is just business as usual. The refusal to address this part of the issue is a big part of the reason why there hasn't been any meaningful reform proposed, much less voted on. And there has been reform in the past but the parts of that reform that would properly screen migrant workers and provisions to stop businesses from hiring illegal migrant workers have been ignored. So why should we trust the gov to enact new reform when they simply won't recognize parts of the reform they have already enacted? |
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Jul 25 2015, 08:45 PM
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As far as the "difference". I'm saying, again, that there really isn't one. Immigrants, are immigrants. Just like our forefathers were when they came here and put all the native people in "Reservations". The source does not matter, you will cry foul.As for laws, yup, they take oaths to uphold them. Yet, they don't and never have. They will always focus on the ones that help them out politically. Always have, always will [ Here is a great article from TIME on why undocumented workers are "Good for Business". In fact, my own State could lose $1billion annually without enough migrant workers. http://business.time.com/2012/06/14/the-fi...migration-laws/ Look at your reality, Conservatives sources are always evil while yours are always right on the money.I do have a problem with conservatives and their shortfalls why don't you ever think the other side ever has any. As for this hefty "tax" and that it would cause your state 1 billion . you didn't think that with this Obama tax. oh , i mean Obama care. Didn't your cost go up even though obama said they would go down, did you loose your doctor or are you one of the lucky ones that didn't, even though Obama said no one would loose their doctor and had to admit he was wrong ( if he could be wrong about such a small detail , What about the big ones ?). According to the CBO it costs 950 billion dollars annually and supposedly saved 140 billion bringing the grand total 800 billion yearly , divided by fifty states equals 1.6 billion Obamacare is costing your state (every year). Now the CBO ,by law , has to use the figures given it by the administration, Thats right they were forced to use data for obama care given by Obama (nothing could go wrong there). How long have you been interested in politics , Long enough to know that the us government ALWAYS EXTREMELY underestimates costs , and is inefficient in everything it does. So if obamatax ain't hurting your state (in this great roaring economy ) The 1 billion in reference to farming won't, and you need a much stronger argument. Minimum wage increases will hurt much more. We can't use resources any more , cause it is a he said she said argument, but , we can use common sense . On the surface raising it sounds loving and empathetic. In realty the Free market works to fast for the government to act. Lets say you raise fast food workers from 8 an hour to eleven , what will the trained employee say who makes eleven. You can not deny he will require the same wage increase to fourteen . Now the shift manager at fourteen says you need to pay me more than the guy at the register, so now he gets 17 an hour. Now the assistant manger who make 17 needs to go to 20, and the manager who gets 20 now wants 23 an hour( If you don't see this coming you are fooling yourself), within a company with five employees, that companies payroll just increased 30,00 a year and ask anyone who owns a small business with employees ( not the same as hiring sub contract work )you will easily add at least half of what your company payroll is to Taxes, fees and such. Do you really think a business can take a 45,00 hit. NO. They will have to raise their price. The girl working at the mall in the clothing store, she needs her raise or she is going to work fast food - so up goes clorthing to cover all the raises , The construction worker ( of which my business is). I have guys showing up wanting 10 an hour . fresh out of high school , that don't now how to read a tape measure, and now they will want 13 an hour to start because it is harder work . Please tell me you are smart enough to see this cause and effect of this . This is why we have this debate every couple of years . The minimum wage increases , the free market compensates to fast for the government to handle, so everybody cries for minimum wage to increase. Search its history yourself .The only thing it ever hurts are the poor and elderly( the exact ones the government says it is trying to help), because now , those one a fixed income have less buying power, their dollar buys less. The poor will benefit for a while , untill prices rise and then we will be back in this boat. To be honest , This will happen , just watch its cause and effect On of the truest statements I have ever heard " Within the free market their are winners and loser but when the government tries to decide who wins and loses , we all lose ". Only time will tell .Please learn from it. |
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Jul 26 2015, 11:51 AM |
CA has one of the highest minimum wages at $9.00 an hour ($10.00 next Jan 1st) and one of the consistently highest GSP (gross state product) indexes.
*Though I had to change doctors, Obama Care lowered my family's medical insurance costs by 30%. Co-pays higher/deductible lower (which worked out great because because my kid needed a tonsillectomy). This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 26 2015, 11:58 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jul 26 2015, 06:20 PM |
CA has one of the highest minimum wages at $9.00 an hour ($10.00 next Jan 1st) and one of the consistently highest GSP (gross state product) indexes. *Though I had to change doctors, Obama Care lowered my family's medical insurance costs by 30%. Co-pays higher/deductible lower (which worked out great because because my kid needed a tonsillectomy). Not arguing one way or another about min wage but it doesn't appear that min wage is much of a factor when looking at GDP by state. The leading factor to me looks like it is industry. For example in 2010 Alaska's GDP was number 1 per capita at 49% above the national avg with the mining industry contributing 25% to the Alaska economy. The top five states that year per capita were Alaska, Delaware, Wyoming, Connecticut and New York. Isn't California's leading industry Agriculture, which is exempt from min wage requirements? I am no expert at all when it comes to this stuff but it seems to me that an increase in min wage has little impact on major industry since most of those jobs pay quite a bit more than min wage to begin with. It is the small businesses that are the ones that struggle. That being said, it also seems to me that min wage increases lag behind cost of living increases. There is a rise in the min wage coming here too but I don't think it will have much of a negative impact because most jobs, even in fast food pay more than min wage anyway to start with. And as far as the ACA. Here is an article from Forbes in 2013 speaking of the increasing costs of health insurance. Here in Alaska , a leading insurer has raised premiums by 35% or more for two years in a row (This year and last year). I think maybe you are one of the lucky ones if you are paying less and I would be surprised if you are still saving money in the next few years. http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/201...ms-3000-higher/ This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jul 26 2015, 09:40 PM |
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Jul 27 2015, 09:46 AM |
Ag workers 'legally' make the CA minimum - $9.00. *I'm sure the illegal and non-unionized workers make less.
Ag, government, health care and tech all run neck and neck as far as largest employers and GSP is concerned. If my insurance premiums go up (w/in reason) I can deal with that, especially since there's no $$ cap, preventive is free and the doc networks are fairly large. CA was way ahead of the game as Obama Care was becoming a reality. Anyway, this is just 'my' personal experience and observations as a native Californian. The press is all about negativity on both sides ... because it sells. Individuals love to complain about shit they know nothing about or doesn't affect them and politicians make a career of scaring the cap out of you. My point being ... It's not so bad here. We do need some water though. This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 27 2015, 04:23 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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