Anti Trumpers |
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Anti Trumpers |
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May 29 2016, 09:13 AM |
Both the far left and the far right have always acted like ideological morons.
The tide of publicity tends to shift every couple of decades. Bernie's more radical front is not doing anything positive to help his cause the same way planned parenthood clinic bombers do nothing to help the conservative cause. They're all a bunch of fucking idiots. The news focuses on them - even though they're not the majority of either faction - because the general populace are a bunch of fat, stupid, xenophobic, one dimensional sloths who eat that shit up like it's the new form of masturbation. When the dust clears, it will most likely be Hillary in November. Whatever - status quo. If the Donald gets elected(?), so be it. It'll be fun to watch. This post has been edited by klasaine: May 30 2016, 01:03 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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May 30 2016, 03:44 AM |
Ha, ha!
This thread could be as good as the campaign season. Go Kansans! -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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May 30 2016, 11:33 PM |
It's undeniable that Trump's supporters skew towards a particular demographic: less educated old white men. These people are bitter. Bitter that their blue collar jobs are gone and are not coming back. Bitter that whites are becoming a minority. Bitter that their religious views are not shared by as many as they once were. Bitter that they hold less of a voice in politics than they once did.
That's understandable. The problem is these people are are latching on to a message that, rather proposing to solve problems, instead is all about blaming their troubles on others, especially people who do not look like them. None of this means Trump supporters are hateful or stupid. It just means they want to hear that somebody else is responsible for their misfortune. And yes, that is precisely the message that brought Hitler to power in the early thirties -------------------- Cyber-industrial music and video animations:
https://vimeo.com/channels/thedignitymachine https://vimeo.com/channels/somewheretohide Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RodrigoSpacecraft |
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May 31 2016, 11:08 AM |
It's as if people that are opposed to Trump do not listen to his message at all but read a script written for them - exactly like the kid in the video above.
To compare Trump to Hitler is completely idiotic. Trump is NOT against immigration, he is against ILLEGAL immigration - why is that so hard to understand? Why is the idea of building a wall to keep illegal aliens from pouring over the border so alarming and what about that is racist? Shouldn't every American be concerned with the job situation in the U.S.? You have people demanding $15 an hour for minimum wage work yet it's mean old white men that are pissed over losing jobs? What kind of logic is that? Does nobody remember the United States before NAFTA? That was when we actually had a manufacturing base and our nation wasn't a government service industry. Is it "racists" to want to rely on our own energy resources as opposed to having to deal with nations that hate us? Seems like a great idea to me. The left couldn't bash Bush enough for having ties to the Saudi Family - so now Trump comes along and wants to cut ties from foreign oil and he's a racist bigot. Isn't it a good idea that we have better relations with Russia? Putin is definitely winning the PR war against the west and he should be. Our media is as crooked and tainted as his government PR mouthpiece RT (Russia Today). But Putin does have a legitimate gripe with U.S. foreign policy as it concerns our missile around his borders. What would it be called if he tried to put Russian missiles near our borders - The Cuban Missile Crisis. Also, how is it that people can't understand that Trump is not truly a republican but simply ran under the party as a vehicle to the White House. The republican establishment hate his guts, so does the media - and now the left do. Until now the left was sure the republicans and media would have taken Trump out but now he has become their problem (which fills me with glee). 3rd party candidates never come close to winning, so it was a strategically smart move for Trump to run as he did. Look at what happened to Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Ron Paul - remember those guys? Trump was the only one truthful enough to raise his hand when asked if he would consider a third party run if he didn't win the republican nomination. He was chastised by the other candidates and forced into signing a contract stating that if he didn't win the nomination he would throw his support behind the republican nominee - yet he will not be receiving the same respect. Doesn't matter now though - he won and it's a mute point. The Republican party was crushed by the voice of Americans. If this isn't a peaceful revolution I don't know what one is. Trump is pushing an "America First" agenda. What's wrong with that? What is wrong with making sure countries we enter into trade deals with abide by the same rules we are forced to abide by? "China" "China" "China". We are run by corporations that do not have the best interest of Americans at heart. Another devastating treaty will be the TPP Read About TPP here There's nothing racists or xenophobic about wanting to "Make America Great Again". It's looking out for our nation's best interest. So - if there's an interest in maintaining this thread, why don't we actually discuss the issues because all the assumptions put forth so far about Trump and his supporters demonstrate nothing but a total lack of education - and really just makes the 2 videos above that much more legitimate. |
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May 31 2016, 11:16 PM
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May 31 2016, 11:57 PM |
The comparison between Trump and Hitler being made (by me and a couple of others) is very specific and only relate to his approach toward the electorate. The things that are similar between the two folks in question is in how they are approaching the people and the tools being used to persuade the electorate. The arguments are mostly from an emotional place rather than being detailed and concrete, also, both appeal to the frustration of the Middle class or what used to be the middle class. Both guys used these tools to to get results and it works. Both used very powerful techniques of persuasion. Both had good instincts and knew how to play to a room. It's not that anyone is suggesting that "Trump = Hitler". Just that both men are using a very similar playbook to get elected. The making of personal attacks on anyone that dares question them, keeping the platform vague and instead focusing on slogans, making improbable/impossible promises, etc. ALL politicians do this to some degree But not to this degree. The last time I remember seeing this approach was in fact way back when on documentaries focusing on how Mr H made it in to public, elected office. So let's not lower ourselves to calling each other "idiotic" or to using any sort of personal attacks, as this is public forum, meant for folks to express themselves. We don't have to do what they do and come down on each other just because we disagree. Civil discourse, should be, at the very least, "civil"
The demographics of the trump voter are also well known. Nobody is trying to brush every trump voter as less educated and blue collar (or formerly blue collar), but, the polls do show that the bulk of his fans fall roughly in that camp. This is not a disparagement, the bulk of Americans can be said to fit in to that group. Only 35 percent of Americans roughly, complete college. So the bulk of us, are a bit less educated than the minority of us that did complete one ore more college degrees. Here is a handy chart of a study by ABC news published in the washington post. They didn't make up these numbers. It's just a poll. Take it for what it is It does show that the Trump voter on average is White, Male, makes less than $50,000 per year, didn't complete a college degree and is either Evangelical Christian or Catholic. This can be said to be most of middle America, so again not a disparagement. Just a fact. On the news cycle now I see Trump taking a press conference and calling one of the journalists a "Loser" on national television rather than discussing the issues or why he was irritated at all. He instead, just started name calling. This is one of the things that many folks find so disturbing. The President is supposed to be "Presidential" and not one to resort to name calling just because he comes under scrutiny. I might react that way, or any regular person, but we are not running for president. But still, if people vote him in then he will be President and hopefully will take the country in a good direction Worst case, he can be swapped in four years for a new model. (that last sentence is not a pun on trumps succession of young "model" wives, it's just a sentence that uses the word model) To Rammikins point, YES. There has been a precipitous decline in the earning power of folks without a college education in the past several years. Good paying blue collar jobs have gone away, and been replaced by low paying service sector jobs, if at all. Here is a link to a study which looks at quarter of a century of income data. It shows the rampant decline of the blue collar worker in general. This demographic is understandably very angry and frustrated with the "system" as a whole. Trumps timing has been perfect here. He is really connecting to a HUGE segment of the population that is doing far worse than their parents did and they are very concerned for their childrens future. This is "Playing on Fears" which is a very persuasive technique indeed. It's these folks that make up a large portion of Trumps "Base" and rightfully so IMHO. They see him as the ONLY way out of an impossible situation. http://www.hamiltonproject.org/assets/lega...013_FINAL_1.pdf here is the main quote "Over the past quarter-century, the types of jobs held by less-educated workers have shifted significantly, with important consequences for their earnings. Men and women with less than a bachelor’s degree are less likely to be working full-time and full-year, and those who continue to work have been moving away from traditional, blue-collar, middle-paying jobs—such as truck drivers, construction laborers, and factory workers—to lower-paying service jobs. The shift to service jobs can explain between one-sixth and two-fifths of the overall decline in annual earnings for the typical worker without a bachelor’s degree. Men and women with that degree—or more—have stayed in professional and managerial occupations and seen their earnings rise, although even among these groups, some have fared better than others. The labor market will likely continue to change in the years and decades ahead. A return to the traditional occupations of previous decades is unlikely, but there is already some indication that new opportunities are opening for American workers who may not have a bachelor’s degree but possess the skills demanded by tomorrow’s economy. Whether these opportunities will lead to widespread economic prosperity for a majority of workers is an open and pressing question. " T This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 1 2016, 12:56 AM |
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Jun 1 2016, 03:14 PM |
Do I personally think the Donald is another Adolf?
No, but I think a couple of definitions and some history is in order ... National Socialism is misnomer. It had nothing to do with Marxist style 'socialism'. Hence the National in front of it. Not only was Hitler not a socialist himself (nor a communist) but he actually hated these ideologies and did as much as he could to eradicate them. At first this involved organizing bands of thugs to attack socialists in the street, but grew into invading Russia (a socialist country since it's revolution in 1917) in part to enslave the population and earn ‘living room' for Germans, and in part to wipe out communism and ‘Bolshevism’. The key element here is what Hitler did, believed and tried to create. Nazism was fundamentally an ideology built around race, while socialism was/is built around class. Hitler aimed to unite the right and left, including workers and their bosses, into a new German nation based on the racial identity of those in it. Socialism, in contrast, was a class struggle, aiming to build a workers state, whatever race the worker was from. Nazism drew on a range of pan German theories, which wanted to blend Aryan workers and Aryan magnates into a super Aryan state, which would involve the eradication of class focused socialism, as well as Judaism and other ideas deemed non-German. When Hitler came to power he attempted to dismantle trade unions. He supported the actions of leading industrialists - actions far removed from socialism which tends to want the opposite. Hitler used the fear of socialism and communism as a way of terrifying middle and upper class Germans into supporting him. Workers were targeted with slightly different propaganda, but these were promises simply to earn support, to get into power, and then to remake the workers along with everyone else into a racial state. There was to be no dictatorship of the proletariat as in socialism; there was just to be the dictatorship of the Fuhrer. *The belief that Hitler was a socialist seems to have emerged from two sources: the name of his political party, the National Socialist German Worker’s Party, or Nazi Party, and the early presence of socialists in it. While it does look like a very socialist name, the problem is that ‘National Socialism’ is not socialism, but a different, fascist ideology (remember, Mussolini came first). Hitler had originally joined when the party was called the German Worker’s Party, and he was there as a spy to keep an eye on it. It was not, as the name suggested, a devotedly left wing group, but one Hitler thought had potential, and as Hitler’s oratory became popular the party grew and Hitler became a leading figure. At this point ‘National Socialism’ was a confused mishmash of ideas with multiple proponents, arguing for nationalism, antisemitism, and yes, some socialism. The party records don’t record the name change, but it’s generally believed a decision was taken to rename the party to attract people, and partly to forge links with other ‘national socialist’ parties. The meetings began to be advertised on red banners and posters, hoping for socialists to come in and then be confronted, sometimes violently: the party was aiming to attract as much attention and notoriety as possible. But the name was not Socialism, but National Socialism and as the 20s and 30s progressed, this became an ideology Hitler would expound upon at length. Hitler’s National Socialism wished to promote those of ‘pure’ German blood, removing citizenship for Jews and aliens, and promoted eugenics, including the execution of the disabled and mentally ill. National Socialism did promote equality among Germans who passed their racist criteria, and submitted the individual to the will of the state, but did so as a right-wing racial movement which sought a nation of healthy Aryans living in a thousand year Reich, which would be achieved through war. In Nazi theory, a new, unified class was to be formed instead of religious, political and class divisions, but this was to be done by rejecting ideologies such as liberalism, capitalism and socialism, and instead pursue a different idea, of the Volksgemeinschaft (people’s community), built on war and race, ‘blood and soil’, and German heritage. Before 1934 some in the party did promote anti-capitalist and socialist ideas, such as profit-sharing, nationalization and old-age benefits, but these were merely tolerated by Hitler as he gathered support, dropped once he secured power . There was no socialist redistribution of wealth or land under Hitler – although some property changed hands thanks to looting and invasion - and while both industrialists and workers were courted, it was the former who benefited and the latter who found themselves the target of empty rhetoric. Indeed, Hitler became convinced that socialism was intimately connected to his even more long standing hatred - the Jews – and thus hated it even more. Socialists were the first to be locked up in concentration camps. It’s worth pointing out that all aspects of Nazism had forerunners in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and Hitler tended to cobble his ideology together from them; some historians think that ‘ideology’ gives Hitler too much credit for something which can be hard to pin down. He knew how to take things which made the socialists popular and apply them to give his party a boost. But historian Neil Gregor, in his introduction to a discussion of Nazism which includes many experts, says: "As with other fascist ideologies and movements it subscribed to an ideology of national renewal, rebirth, and rejuvenation manifesting itself in extreme populist radical nationalism, militarism, and – in contradistinction to many other forms of fascism, extreme biological racism…the movement understood itself to be, and indeed was, a new form of political movement … the anti-Socialist, anti-liberal, and radical nationalist tenets of Nazi ideology applied particularly to the sentiments of a middle class disorientated by the domestic and international upheavals in the inter-war period." *The psychology and sociology of this campaign season is much more interesting than who'll actually get elected. Both Sanders and Trump appeal to some base frustrations of a lot of the populace. Though I personally think that most of that frustrated populace doesn't really understand how politics or government actually works and that neither Bernie or Donald will be able to enact 1/10 (if anything?) of what they propose. Even if Hillary doesn't get elected, it'll be like if Hillary did get elected. This post has been edited by klasaine: Jun 1 2016, 04:57 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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