Harmonic And Melodic Minor Modes Names |
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Harmonic And Melodic Minor Modes Names |
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Dec 25 2012, 12:16 PM |
I was reading some material about improvising over dominant7 chords when I saw a Mixolydian b13 b9 scale. When I took a closer look on it, I realised that it is the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor scale. Well, since Harmonic Minor scale is a minor scale, shouldn't Mixolydian b13 b9 be called Phrygian #3 instead? At first name "Mixolydian" led me into missunderstanding about where the mode had come from...
Mixolydian b13 (or b6) is the 5th mode of Melodic Minor scale, so shouldn't it be called Phrygian #2 #3 as well? P.S. I've found these scales in our Scale generator as Phrygian Major Scale (Mixolydian b13 b9) and Mixolydian flat 6 (Mixolydian b13 (or b6)). This post has been edited by K1R: Dec 25 2012, 12:23 PM -------------------- Guitar Altamira M01D, Samick Royale 3, Musima Lead Star 1 Effects Boss ME-25 Amp Stagg 40 GA DSP DAW SONAR LE YouTube | Facebook | Last.fm “One day you pick up the guitar and you feel like a great master, and the next day you feel like a fool. It’s because we’re different every day, but the guitar is always the same…beautiful.” ~ Tommy Emmanuel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You have a whole collection of musical ideas and thoughts that you’ve accumulated through your musical history plus all the musical history of the whole world and it’s all in your subconscious and you draw upon it when you play” ~ Joe Pass |
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Dec 31 2012, 01:15 AM |
I was reading some material about improvising over dominant7 chords when I saw a Mixolydian b13 b9 scale. When I took a closer look on it, I realised that it is the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor scale. Well, since Harmonic Minor scale is a minor scale, shouldn't Mixolydian b13 b9 be called Phrygian #3 instead? At first name "Mixolydian" led me into missunderstanding about where the mode had come from... Mixolydian b13 (or b6) is the 5th mode of Melodic Minor scale, so shouldn't it be called Phrygian #2 #3 as well? P.S. I've found these scales in our Scale generator as Phrygian Major Scale (Mixolydian b13 b9) and Mixolydian flat 6 (Mixolydian b13 (or b6)). As mentioned scales can have a lot of names depending on context. I've found it to be a regional thing too. Out here on the west coast of the states we usually call it Phrygian nat. 3 ... or, the fifth mode of Mel. Min. Of course learning the sound, how to use it and whether you dig it or not is the most important thing. This post has been edited by klasaine: Dec 31 2012, 01:16 AM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jan 1 2013, 04:34 AM |
Excellent point ConnerGilks!
*I prefer phrygian nat. 3 because it's a quick and easy definition to understand. It actually ends up 'sounding' like a type of alt/dom or 'ethnic' scale. -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jan 1 2013, 06:56 PM |
Names can be confusing indeed!
After re-reading this thread I realized that I was (mistakenly) talking about a different scale completely - I read phrygian #3 as if it was raising the third degree of a normal phryg scale - making the minor 3rd a major 3rd. Example: A Bb C D E F G A changes to A Bb C# D E F G A 'This' is what I call Phrygian Nat. #3 (sounds cool over dom and alt/dom chords - McLaughlin uses it a lot sans the 6th degree, A Bb C# D E G A). *Also I should have said 5th mode of the (D) Harm. Min. (not mel.min.). *I realize the mix of sharps and flats can be confusing but it's the only way I can get it to make sense intervalically. I'm new here so my apologies for my confusion. I will mos def read more carefully from now on, And Happy New Year! -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jan 2 2013, 06:27 PM |
Yes, phryg/dom. Especially cool sound over a 7#9 chord.
But I prefer phryg/nat3 because it signifies the single changed scale degree from the standard phrygian mode. Again, it's what I/you get used to and are comfortable with. This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 2 2013, 06:31 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jan 2 2013, 09:55 PM |
Exactly and part of me now thinks that I too should call it phryg/dom precisely because I use it over dominant chords and it sounds dominant to me. Your term I feel is more definitive.
And also why it's complicated for the OP. Both you and I are playing the same 'collection of tones'. We probably even hear it the same way but we refer to it (at least to ourselves) in the way that best helps us to remember it and maybe even convey it to somebody else(?). But back to the original post/question ... For better or for worse there's really only 12 notes/tones in western music - that's not a lot of notes. But for at least 1400 years people have been composing a vast and varied amount of music with just these 12 notes (in several octaves of course). Think about the differences between a Gregorian chant, Brahms, Elvis, John Coltrane, Slim Harpo, Luciano Berio, Fela Kuti, Slayer and the Jam - but they all use the same notes. We 'name' the different collections (scales, chords even whole tunes) based most of time on how they function (or just by historical habit). And they function VERY differently in different music. As long as 'you' know what it is, you can call it whatever you want. It's only when you need to convey the sound to someone else that it can potentially become problematic. *Hence the reason it's a good idea to at least be able to spell the notes and know where they are on your instrument. This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 2 2013, 09:55 PM -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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Jan 3 2013, 09:16 AM |
Great input here mate It looks like you are a fellow that knows his stuff, have you had any scholastic studies? Just being curious here
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Jan 3 2013, 05:15 PM |
Great input here mate Have you had any scholastic studies? Just being curious here Guilty as charged. I'm pretty curious about this stuff in general but I also went to university as a music major (Cal State University Northridge in Los Angeles). Plus, I was very fortunate to 'cut my teeth' with a bunch of players that were also theory heads. To this day we'll still sit around and discuss the inner workings of music. How about you? You obviously know this stuff as well. Seriously, I now call the scale in question phryg/dom. And I'm thinking about some of the other names I either made up myself or just accepted ... to see if they're descriptive or deceptive(?) After many years of playing and studying I'm still fascinated like a little kid by it all. -------------------- - Ken Lasaine
https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/foolin-the-clouds https://soundcloud.com/klasaine2/surfin-at-the-country-hop Soundcloud assorted ... https://soundcloud.com/klasaine3 New record ... http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kenlasaine Solo Guitar ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...5iIdO2tpgtj25Ke Stuff I'm on ... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXZh...b-dhb-4B0KgRY-d |
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