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> Creesenator's Composition Workout, for Gab's Army
Gabriel Leopardi
post Sep 26 2017, 02:33 PM
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Hi creesenator! Welcome to your thread for working on composition!

Before we start please share here:

- Your 5 favorite bands.
- 10 songs that you like.
- What do you know about music theory?
- Share your own compositions or songs in progress if you have any.


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creesenator
post Sep 26 2017, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Sep 26 2017, 01:33 PM) *
Hi creesenator! Welcome to your thread for working on composition!

Before we start please share here:

- Your 5 favorite bands.
- 10 songs that you like.
- What do you know about music theory?
- Share your own compositions or songs in progress if you have any.





- Your 5 favorite bands.
This is a tough one of course probably don’t have 5 favorite, but here are are 5 bands I have liked over the years probably the longest.
1. Pearl Jam
2. RHCP
3. RATM
4.Muse
5.Soundgarden
Other bands I have liked more recently - System of A Down, Five Finger Death Punch, Three days Grace, Shinedown, Chevelle and some older stuff would be Foo Fighters, Collective Soul, STP, Audioslave, Iron Maiden, Aerosmith, Metallica, Megadeath.

- 10 songs that you like.
Another tough one but I will give it a shot, both new and old. They are all over the place.
Muse - Hysteria
Chevelle - Vitamin R (Leading Us Along)
Velvet Revolver - Slither
Breaking Benjamin - Polyamorous
System of A down - Chop Suey
Pearl Jam - Even Flow
RHCP - Can’t Stop
Collective Soul - Shine
Audioslave - Show me how to live
Volbeat - Fallen

- What do you know about music theory?
I feel pretty good about music theory. I wish I could play as well as I knew music theory. I know all of the modes, major, minor, and pentatonic scales and can find my way around the fretboard pretty good. I know all my chords and in the past worked on some exotic scales and chords that I have since forget because I never use.

- Share your own compositions or songs in progress if you have any.
I haven’t really spent much time in the past putting together songs. But here are a couple I have been focusing on the last little bit.
https://soundcloud.com/crees-enator/get-back-up - this one has maybe a cult of personality vibe
https://soundcloud.com/crees-enator/stoner - This is not mine(it’s yours). I took your stoner rock 2 lesson and re arranged it a little bit and came up with this.
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Sep 27 2017, 02:27 PM
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Excelent! I've enjoyed that Living colour style tune! It's also interesting to hear how you took my lesson to compose your own track. That's a very good trick to practice composition. What are you using to record your ideas? Which daw and drum vsti?

It seems that you have enough knowledge to start analising some songs and then applying the concepts learn. I consider esential to know all the details behind our favorite music to find out which elements and concepts are used to get those sounds that we like.

The first taks is to analise son structures. Please write down the structure of each of the 10 songs that you've shared here. By structure I reffer to parts like intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, bridge, and so.


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creesenator
post Sep 29 2017, 01:37 AM
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What are you using to record your ideas?
Logic Pro X, with a Helix floor unit. for drums I just used the drummers in Logic Pro X and play around with the options until I find a beat/groove I think somewhat matches.


Thanks for the lesson ideas!!

This was a little harder then i thought, a couple songs are pretty straight forward but a few of them are outside of the box of the typical song structures. I might be off a little, I did this today, without looking at any tabs/music/online/etc.. just listened to the songs several times each.

Muse - Hysteria
- intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, vamp, solo, chorus, outro
Chevelle - Vitamin R (Leading Us Along)
- intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, verse, bridge, chorus(outro)
Velvet Revolver - Slither
- intro, verse, chorus, post chorus, verse, no guitar, solo, verse, chorus, outro
Breaking Benjamin - Polyamorous
- intro, riff, verse, chorus, riff, verse, bridge, chorus, riff, outro
System of A down - Chop Suey
- intro, riff, verse, chorus, verse, bridge
Pearl Jam - Even Flow
- intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, verse, chorus, vamp, solo, riff, chorus, vamp
RHCP - Can’t Stop
- intro, verse, chorus, bridge, solo, verse,
Collective Soul - Shine
- intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, solo, riff, verse, pre chorus, chorus, outro
Audioslave - Show me how to live
- intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, vamp, bridge, chorus, outro
Volbeat - Fallen
- intro, riff, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, verse, pre chorus, chorus, solo, bridge, chorus, post chorus, outro

This post has been edited by creesenator: Sep 29 2017, 01:38 AM
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Sep 30 2017, 04:04 PM
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Fantastic work mate! The more you get into the songs, the more you'll understand how they are composed. Then, you'll have lots of elements, and concepts in your mind to be applied in your own songs.

The next steps are:

1. Write an arrangement description for each part.
2. Write the chord progression for each part.


This can be a lot of work because we are working on many songs. I recommend you doing this with all of them, but feel free to start with a few and then keep on completing it.



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creesenator
post Oct 1 2017, 11:42 AM
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Great thanks!

Is this what you are looking for?

Muse - Hysteria
BPM - 93
Key - Am
Intro - 8 bars - Am 16th note Riff Bass Riff - The Bb note is added to the Riff
Verse 1 - 8 bars - octave chords A, Ab, F, E with little riff, then 8 bars with mainly bass riff
Chorus 1 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A
Post Chorus - A minor 16th note riff
Verse 2 - 4 bars - octave chords A, Ab, F, E with little riff, 7 bars Am riff with Bb guitar follows bass, 8 bar scratching 16 notes
Chorus 2 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A, 1 bar A, D/C
Vamp - 4 bars Am 16th note riff
Solo - 16 bars - Amajor/Am solo
Chorus 3 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A, 1 bar A, D/C
Outro - 7 bars Am 16th note riff
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 1 2017, 09:59 PM
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Exactly! Well done with this one. That's what I meant.


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creesenator
post Oct 6 2017, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 1 2017, 08:59 PM) *
Exactly! Well done with this one. That's what I meant.


That took some work wink.gif

Muse - Hysteria
BPM - 93
Key - Am
Intro - 8 bars - Am 16th note Riff Bass Riff - The Bb note is added to the Riff
Verse 1 - 8 bars - octave chords A, Ab, F, E with little riff, then 8 bars with mainly bass riff
Chorus 1 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A
Post Chorus - A minor 16th note riff
Verse 2 - 4 bars - octave chords A, Ab, F, E with little riff, 7 bars Am riff with Bb guitar follows bass, 8 bar scratching 16 notes
Chorus 2 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A, 1 bar A, D/C
Vamp - 4 bars Am 16th note riff
Solo - 16 bars - Amajor/Am solo
Chorus 3 - 7 bars - power chords C,G,D,A, 1 bar A, D/C
Outro - 7 bars Am 16th note riff
____________________________
Chevelle - Vitamin R (Leading Us Along)
BPM - 94
Drop B
Key - G major
Intro - 3 bars - Riff
Verse1 - 9 bars
Pre Chorus - 8 bars - palm muted low B string 16 note riff
Chorus - 6 bars - G,A,E
Post Chorus - 3 bars (same as intro)
Verse 2 - 12 bars
Pre Chorus - 8 bars - palm muted low B string 16 note riff
Chorus - 6 bars - G,A,E
Bridge - 16 bars - D,B,E,B
Vamp- 4 bars - Riff
Chorus - 12 bars - G,A,E
Outro - 6 bars - Riff
_____________________________
Velvet Revolver - Slither
Drop D
BPM 140
key - Dm/D lydian entire song is built around a D lydian riff
Intro - 8 bars of bass riff, then guitar comes in for 8 bars
Verse - Main Riff for 20 bars, at the end of bars 8 and 16 it changes up a little
Chorus - 8 bars - D,C,G/B,D
Verse 2 - 26 bars - Main Riff
Chorus - 16 bars- D,C,G/B,D
Bridge - 8 bars of bridge riff
Solo - 20 bars
Verse 3 - 8 bars - Main Riff
Chorus - 16 bars - D,C,G/B,D
Outro - 9 bars - Main Riff
_______________________________
Breaking Benjamin - Polyamorous
BPM - 97
Drop D Eb
Key - Db
intro - 6 bars - riff - Bb,Gb
Riff - 8 bars
Verse - 8 bars - single note palm muted riff from Db major scale
Chorus - 4 bars - Db,Ab,G,F, Fm, Gbsus2
Riff - 2 bars
Verse - 8 bars- single note palm muted riff from Db major scale
Chorus - 8 bars - Db,Ab,G,F, Fm, Gbsus2
Bridge - 8 bars - Bb,Fm,Gbsus2,Fm,Gbsus2,Fm,Eb,Fm x2
Solo - 8 bars - 16 note riff
transition - 2 bars
Chorus - 8 bars
Outro - 7 bars - 4 bars of different octave of main riff then 2 bars of Riff
_____________________________
System of A down - Chop Suey
BPM-136
Drop C
Key - Bb major
Intro - 16 bars
post intro - 1 bar
Riff 1 - 4 bars 16th note riff - F/C,E/B,G/D,F#/C#
Riff 2 - 4 bars 16th note riff on low C string
Verse 1 - 4 bars - F/C,E/B,G/D,F#/C#
Chorus - 8 bars - Bm7/A,G/A,F/A
Riff 1 - 4 bars 16th note riff - F/C,E/B,G/D,F#/C#
Pre Verse - 1 bar
Verse 2 - F/C,E/B,G/D,F#/C#
Chorus - 12 bars - Bm7/A,G/A,F/A
Riff 1 - 8 bars 16th note riff - F/C,E/B,G/D,F#/C#
Riff 2 - 4 bars 16th note riff on low C string
Outro - 18 bars - E/B,F,C,F,

______________________________
Pearl Jam - Even Flow
BPM - 101
Key - D Major - Chorus is Dm
Intro - 6 bars - C/G,D/A
Verse1 - 20 bars - Riff built around D
Pre Chorus - 5 Bars - C/G,D/A D
Chorus - 12 bars - D, Bb, D, C
Verse 2 - 16 bars - bars 3&4,7&8,11&12,15&16 play a different riffs with guitar 1 from dm pentatonic scale
Pre Chorus 1 bar - D
Chorus - 18 bars - D, Bb, D, C
Breakdown - 4 bars - F/C
Solo - 19 bars - mainly notes from Dm pentatonic scale
Riff - 8 bars
Chorus - 17 bars - D, Bb, D, C
Breakdown - 7 bars
Outro - 1 bar
______________________________
Collective Soul - Shine
BPM - 74
Drop D Eb
Key Db major
Intro - 4 bars - Riff on D and G strings
Verse 1- 8 bars - Riff
Pre Chorus - 4 bars - Riff on E and A strings
Chorus - 8 bars - Cbsus2, Gb, Db/Ab
Verse 2 - 16 bars - Riff
Pre Chorus - 4 bars - Riff on E and A strings
Chorus - 8 bars - Cbsus2, Gb, Db/Ab
Post Chorus - 4 bars Verse Riff
Solo - 20 bars - mainly around Db minor Pentatonic
Main Riff - 4 bars
Verse 3 - 8 bars - Riff
Pre Chorus - 4 bars - Riff on E and A strings
Chorus - 8bars - Cbsus2, Gb, Db/Ab
Outro - 14 bars - 14 bars of 4/8 time Cbsus2, Gb, Db/Ab -
Outro - 2 bars of Riff on D string I have seen all over the place
______________________________
Audioslave - Show me how to live
BPM - 91
Drop D
Key - E minor
Intro - 8 bars - D,E
Riff - 8 bars - main Riff built around em blues scale
Verse 1 - 16 bars - main riff
Chorus - 8 bars - different riff based on Em
Verse 2 - 8 bars - main riff
Chorus - 8 bars - different riff based on Em
Interlude - 8 bars - High E string 16th note triplets
Breakdown - 17 bars - D,E
Chorus - 8 bars
Outro - 12 Bars - E
______________________________
Volbeat - Fallen
BPM -145
D standar tuning
Key - D major
Intro - 8 bars - Riff
Verse 1- 16 bars - Riff and chords Dadd9,Gsus2,
Pre Chorus - 2 bars
Solo1 - 16 bars - Riff with Chords D5, Gsus2 - no words
Verse 2 - 16 bars
Chorus - 14 bars - D,A,B,D,G
Intro - 8 bars - Riff
Verse 3 - Verse 2 - 16 bars
Chorus - 16 bars - D,A,B,D,G
Solo2 - 16 bars - Riff with Chords D5, Gsus2 - no words
Bridge - 14 bars
Chorus -Chorus - 16 bars - D,A,B,D,G
Outro - 22 bars - Riff/Solo1
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 9 2017, 02:12 PM
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Awesome! Have you compared the songs? Are there any elements that are related or the same? Have you noted any elements that make some of those songs unique?


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creesenator
post Oct 10 2017, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 9 2017, 01:12 PM) *
Awesome! Have you compared the songs? Are there any elements that are related or the same? Have you noted any elements that make some of those songs unique?



It seems like for the most part they all follow some sort ABABCB or a variation of it. All of the songs for the most part are built around different riff ideas that repeat in the different sections of the songs. Other than that they all are different tunings, major and major keys, and different BPMs for the most part. I did notice the Main riff of shine and fallen are very similar, i never had noticed this before. System of a Down - Chop Suey is probably the song most different from the others in song format. I looked at a couple of their other songs and they seem very unique in song structure.


Here is another song I have been working on the last few weeks, since I started analyzing these songs. I took some riffs/chord ideas I had learned from other songs change them around and tried to arrange them following the format of some of the songs I analyzed. I am trying to figure out how to work better with Logic Pro X as well as getting a better sound with my Helix.
https://soundcloud.com/crees-enator/dont-run

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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 10 2017, 04:20 PM
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Hi mate, great job with the analysis. You need to know that the more you do this, the more elements and concepts you'll get. I've done this for many years, by myself and with private students (as well as live streams here).

Your analysis is good, but consider that you could go deeper getting more into arrangement, and melodies. One thing that helped me a lot to train my ear and to start paying attention to things that I wasn't is this Beatles songs analysis done by Allan Pollack: LINK.

That man is crazy! and getting into that whole analysis can be tricky, but I like to check a song from time to time because there is always something new to learn from The Beatles. Check it out and let me know what you think.

I've checked your song in progress and I think that it's interesting. I recommend you to try to add other instruments, as bass, any vocals, or anything else that emulates the lead melody. I also recommend to keep on improving the arrangement by working on drum fills, adding hi hats, cymbals and so. It can be very inspiring the hear a better sounding song.

As soon as you work on lead melodies, you'll notice if there is the track is lacking some more chord progression movement.


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creesenator
post Oct 10 2017, 06:54 PM
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Thanks Gab, this has been a different way to work on guitar and has been fun. All I really have ever done for the most part is learned songs, read about theory, and practiced scale etc..

I will spend some time looking over the analysis of the Beatles songs. That looks great!

I will work on adding to my song, that was just a first pass. Unfortunately I do not sing so coming up with a melody is difficult, but I will work on Bass, drums.

Can you please elaborate and help me understand these two comments below a little better and how I can work on this. The whole tune is built around (Dm/Fmajor) and the format of the song is intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, verse, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, solo, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, outro

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 10 2017, 03:20 PM) *
any vocals, or anything else that emulates the lead melody.

As soon as you work on lead melodies, you'll notice if there is the track is lacking some more chord progression movement.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 11 2017, 07:16 PM
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Hi mate, those are two different things but that are very related.

The first one is about lead melody. That's what the vocalist would do on a standard song, or any other instrument on instrumental songs. Your analysis haven't reached lead melodies yet so dedicating some time to this will give you ideas on the type of rhythms, and scales used in your favorite songs. Another important thing about melodies is the note choices over each chord, and how these notes are related harmonically to the chord sounding at each moment.

Regarding chord movement, this is a very personal opinion but I have the feel that your song is a bit "quiet" talking harmonically, most of the parts are based on riffs around the root chord. This can be tricky when creating melodies, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong. That's why I've said: "As soon as you work on lead melodies, you'll notice if there is the track is lacking some more chord progression movement." Maybe you work on lead melodies and you like what you get.

Does it make sense?


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