Mixing Guitars Options

[badfingers93]

Hey guys i'm going into the studio next week for a couple of recordings for a heavy metal song. I need some suggestions about how to make rhythm guitar parts sound "BIG".....any specific recording or miking techniques? Oh and i also need some tips on making a guitar sound bigger during the mixing. I am most likely to use a Marshall MG half stack...thanks in advance =)

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[Marek Rojewski]

Lower the gain, record multiple tracks. Guitars/amps/amp settings can be vary from one another.

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[Ivan Milenkovic]

Use best guitar available, and do your best with playing. Use less gain as Marek suggested, and record multiple tracks so you can pan them. Record as tight as possible.

When recording and not sure how it will turn out, make sure you don't use so extreme settings. In the case of heavy metal, this means don't scoop the mids too much. If you were on the gig, you would probably scoop it more, but in the studio, getting richer sound is more important.

In that sense, make sure you play your guitar as loud as possible, to get the best possible tone. Forget about dynamics as on stage, in studio it's best to bang the guitar so you produce the tone and energy.

Have fun, and make sure you get a positive attitude when coming into the studio. It's very important!

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[thefireball]

Use best guitar available, and do your best with playing. Use less gain as Marek suggested, and record multiple tracks so you can pan them. Record as tight as possible.

When recording and not sure how it will turn out, make sure you don't use so extreme settings. In the case of heavy metal, this means don't scoop the mids too much. If you were on the gig, you would probably scoop it more, but in the studio, getting richer sound is more important.

In that sense, make sure you play your guitar as loud as possible, to get the best possible tone. Forget about dynamics as on stage, in studio it's best to bang the guitar so you produce the tone and energy.

Have fun, and make sure you get a positive attitude when coming into the studio. It's very important!

This is awesome advice for even me!

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[The Uncreator]

If you double track pan 100% L/R

Or, you can quadtrack (must record four separate individual times, no copy/paste) and do two tracks 100% L/R, and the other two somewhere in the middle at a lower volume.

Ideally it creates a wall of sound, but you must be careful because it can clutter the mix very easily.

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[Todd Simpson]

Hey guys i'm going into the studio next week for a couple of recordings for a heavy metal song. I need some suggestions about how to make rhythm guitar parts sound "BIG".....any specific recording or miking techniques? Oh and i also need some tips on making a guitar sound bigger during the mixing. I am most likely to use a Marshall MG half stack...thanks in advance =)

Marek has shared the secret sauce. This is the trick the BIG guys use to get BIG sound. You'd think it would be the other way around but nope. In the studio, cut the gain/distortion back and layer the guitars with multiple takes. You can then build a huge sound and pan (lef/right) various track at various degrees to get a massive stereo spread and big big sound.

To much gain and the layers just bleed together and start to phase cancel. In short, it actually starts to sound smaller. It's the slight imperfections in each track, in terms of playing, that add to the thickness. You need to be able to play almost exactly the same thing over and over but it's the tiny bits of change that add the thickness. Otherwise you could record once and just duplicate the tracks. While you can try this trick at home and off set one track for a quick and dirty approach, it sounds better to play it twice or four times and stack/layer/pan them.

Your engineer should be hip to this technique if he has recorded any other heavy bands.

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[Saoirse O'Shea]

Hey guys i'm going into the studio next week for a couple of recordings for a heavy metal song. I need some suggestions about how to make rhythm guitar parts sound "BIG".....any specific recording or miking techniques? Oh and i also need some tips on making a guitar sound bigger during the mixing. I am most likely to use a Marshall MG half stack...thanks in advance =)

All good guitar parts start with good clean tracking/recording. With regard to this you need to experiment with and get a good mic position and set up. You may well need to multi mic the guitar amp, with, for instance, a mic close to and pointing at the speaker cone and another set further back in the room and possibly one at the rear of the speaker cab. You should experiment a bit with different types and makes of mics as well. Personally I always like a Shure 57 at the speaker and a Neumann TLM or U series set back - the Neumann works particularly well if you can run it in to a good analogue preamp such as a Neve. Often a combination of a dynamic mic at the speaker cone and a condenser set back in the room work well. Placing a second mic a little back helps both thicken the tone and also captures some of the room's reverberation. If you multi mic pay attention to, and avoid, phasing.

If you can use only one mic I'd use a good condenser (ie a Neumann) in to a good preamp and place it at the speaker. It has sufficient dynamic range so that it can handle the potential high SP levels and IMHO doesn't have the somewhat brittle and sharp quality of a dynamic.

You need to ensure that you get a clean, strong signal that still has sufficient head room so that the track does not clip and also so that you can add effects etc to it at a later stage and combine it with other instrument and vocal tracks to produce the final stereo mixdown which again must not clip. You may well find that your guitar peak signal is likely to be @-12dBFS or lower to achieve this. Keep in mind that final volume is achieved and set at mastering NOT at recording or mixing.

You might want to consider HPF'ing the rythym guitar at @90Hz to avoid unnecessary low end. Otherwise it's best to avoid adding any effects until you get to the mixing stage.

As Ivan says use less gain than you would normally. To some extent it may well be worth recording completely clean and reamping for guitar distortion later as this will give you more scope to experiement.

As to whether or not you record multiple takes for a wall of sound - that imho depends on the track and what you are trying to achieve. If you do follow Uncreator's advice but also experiement using the 80% position for hard L/R. This can lead in some instances to better stereo imaging and less mud. Also be aware of the panning law (which Uncreator suggests when he talks about setting the centre position volume lower than the sides) - you might want to have a look at how your DAW is set up vis a vis panning. Again if you want a wall of sound do the hard L/R with a slightly different mic set up and EQ to the centre as it can help the overall tone and spectral balance and give an impression of a thicker guitar tone.

At mixing - experiement with EQ and compression. With EQ'ing you need to focus not just on how the guitar sounds by itself but also how well it sits with the other instruments and vocals. You may well find that you will need to attenuate low mid frequencies - particularly in the 2-400Hz range - to avoid a muddy mix. Also keep in mind that you will almost always get a better result by attenuating rather than boosting - and to this end you should get some experience of how adjustunments made at a particular part of the spectrum afects the overall perceived frequency balance. For isntance, if you want to brighten the high end instead of adding gain to the >5kHz end it is often better to do some attenuation in the 500-2000Hz mid band. To bring out the character and add some additional depth to the guitar identify the fundamental frequencies and instead of adding gain to them add it tat the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics. The fundamental is usually in the low mid band and if you boost it you will end up with mud, boosting the harmonic helps avoid this.

Compression - for rock something like an API2500 compressor should work well. You will need to experiement with settings but you might find that a ratio of about 5:1 works well but also be prepared to experiemtn with the attack and release times. A single tracked guitar here can also be paralleled compressed to add weigth and body. Avoid placing a compressor on the 2 bus unless you are mixing in to it. Similarly try and avoid putting a limiter on the 2 bus - get your levels right and it isn't needed and once it's on it's very hard to remove.

Reverb can add a little impression of depth and space but be very careful that you don't overdo it as reverb is very difficult to remove. Too much reverb can result in a poorly defined balance and a muddy mix.

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[jstcrsn]

If I might add,try to record a dry signal at the same time( without loosing any of wet signals tone) that way if you have a good take ,you can always use that signal to run through different amps later.

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[badfingers93]

Use best guitar available, and do your best with playing. Use less gain as Marek suggested, and record multiple tracks so you can pan them. Record as tight as possible.

When recording and not sure how it will turn out, make sure you don't use so extreme settings. In the case of heavy metal, this means don't scoop the mids too much. If you were on the gig, you would probably scoop it more, but in the studio, getting richer sound is more important.

In that sense, make sure you play your guitar as loud as possible, to get the best possible tone. Forget about dynamics as on stage, in studio it's best to bang the guitar so you produce the tone and energy.

Have fun, and make sure you get a positive attitude when coming into the studio. It's very important!

Thank you ivan, i will definitely heed your advice =)

Lower the gain, record multiple tracks. Guitars/amps/amp settings can be vary from one another.

Thanks marek, unfortunately i don't have the luxury of using different amplifiers. But will definitely take it into consideration.

If you double track pan 100% L/R

Or, you can quadtrack (must record four separate individual times, no copy/paste) and do two tracks 100% L/R, and the other two somewhere in the middle at a lower volume.

Ideally it creates a wall of sound, but you must be careful because it can clutter the mix very easily.

Thanks alot mate =) I'm planning to just record two tracks for rhythm guitar as i still have MIDI string parts later on for the song, so i'm afraid it might take alot of "space" in the mix. Plus, instead of just having rhythm guitar parts playing the chunky rhythm patterns, i also have like a "pedal note" riffing guitar part which i am planning to record on a separate track. It is meant to be played over the chunky rhythm patterns at the intro. So do i duplicate both tracks?

Marek has shared the secret sauce. This is the trick the BIG guys use to get BIG sound. You'd think it would be the other way around but nope. In the studio, cut the gain/distortion back and layer the guitars with multiple takes. You can then build a huge sound and pan (lef/right) various track at various degrees to get a massive stereo spread and big big sound.

To much gain and the layers just bleed together and start to phase cancel. In short, it actually starts to sound smaller. It's the slight imperfections in each track, in terms of playing, that add to the thickness. You need to be able to play almost exactly the same thing over and over but it's the tiny bits of change that add the thickness. Otherwise you could record once and just duplicate the tracks. While you can try this trick at home and off set one track for a quick and dirty approach, it sounds better to play it twice or four times and stack/layer/pan them.

Your engineer should be hip to this technique if he has recorded any other heavy bands.

Haha thanks Todd, but unfortunately i am the one who will be the mix engineer as well. Very useful tips here but if i have another guitar track playing another riff which is meant to played over the rhythm guitar track, do i duplicate that one as well?

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[badfingers93]

All good guitar parts start with good clean tracking/recording. With regard to this you need to experiment with and get a good mic position and set up. You may well need to multi mic the guitar amp, with, for instance, a mic close to and pointing at the speaker cone and another set further back in the room and possibly one at the rear of the speaker cab. You should experiment a bit with different types and makes of mics as well. Personally I always like a Shure 57 at the speaker and a Neumann TLM or U series set back - the Neumann works particularly well if you can run it in to a good analogue preamp such as a Neve. Often a combination of a dynamic mic at the speaker cone and a condenser set back in the room work well. Placing a second mic a little back helps both thicken the tone and also captures some of the room's reverberation. If you multi mic pay attention to, and avoid, phasing.

If you can use only one mic I'd use a good condenser (ie a Neumann) in to a good preamp and place it at the speaker. It has sufficient dynamic range so that it can handle the potential high SP levels and IMHO doesn't have the somewhat brittle and sharp quality of a dynamic.

You need to ensure that you get a clean, strong signal that still has sufficient head room so that the track does not clip and also so that you can add effects etc to it at a later stage and combine it with other instrument and vocal tracks to produce the final stereo mixdown which again must not clip. You may well find that your guitar peak signal is likely to be @-12dBFS or lower to achieve this. Keep in mind that final volume is achieved and set at mastering NOT at recording or mixing.

You might want to consider HPF'ing the rythym guitar at @90Hz to avoid unnecessary low end. Otherwise it's best to avoid adding any effects until you get to the mixing stage.

As Ivan says use less gain than you would normally. To some extent it may well be worth recording completely clean and reamping for guitar distortion later as this will give you more scope to experiement.

As to whether or not you record multiple takes for a wall of sound - that imho depends on the track and what you are trying to achieve. If you do follow Uncreator's advice but also experiement using the 80% position for hard L/R. This can lead in some instances to better stereo imaging and less mud. Also be aware of the panning law (which Uncreator suggests when he talks about setting the centre position volume lower than the sides) - you might want to have a look at how your DAW is set up vis a vis panning. Again if you want a wall of sound do the hard L/R with a slightly different mic set up and EQ to the centre as it can help the overall tone and spectral balance and give an impression of a thicker guitar tone.

At mixing - experiement with EQ and compression. With EQ'ing you need to focus not just on how the guitar sounds by itself but also how well it sits with the other instruments and vocals. You may well find that you will need to attenuate low mid frequencies - particularly in the 2-400Hz range - to avoid a muddy mix. Also keep in mind that you will almost always get a better result by attenuating rather than boosting - and to this end you should get some experience of how adjustunments made at a particular part of the spectrum afects the overall perceived frequency balance. For isntance, if you want to brighten the high end instead of adding gain to the >5kHz end it is often better to do some attenuation in the 500-2000Hz mid band. To bring out the character and add some additional depth to the guitar identify the fundamental frequencies and instead of adding gain to them add it tat the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics. The fundamental is usually in the low mid band and if you boost it you will end up with mud, boosting the harmonic helps avoid this.

Compression - for rock something like an API2500 compressor should work well. You will need to experiement with settings but you might find that a ratio of about 5:1 works well but also be prepared to experiemtn with the attack and release times. A single tracked guitar here can also be paralleled compressed to add weigth and body. Avoid placing a compressor on the 2 bus unless you are mixing in to it. Similarly try and avoid putting a limiter on the 2 bus - get your levels right and it isn't needed and once it's on it's very hard to remove.

Reverb can add a little impression of depth and space but be very careful that you don't overdo it as reverb is very difficult to remove. Too much reverb can result in a poorly defined balance and a muddy mix.

Thanks a bunch tony, really appreciate it. This will definitely help a lot when i'm mixing. Unfortunately we don't have an API2500 compressor. All we have in the studio is a Solid state Logic x-rack stereo compressor and a DRAWMER DL 441. I do not have any plans of adding any sort of signal processors during the recording process. What about using a Sennheiser MD421 with a Neumann u87? Or maybe Neumann U87 and a Helisound PR-30? Would you recommend this combinations? And i will have another track recording the guitars through a Countryman DI box. Thanks

If I might add,try to record a dry signal at the same time( without loosing any of wet signals tone) that way if you have a good take ,you can always use that signal to run through different amps later.

Thanks a lot for the tip

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[Saoirse O'Shea]

Thanks a bunch tony, really appreciate it. This will definitely help a lot when i'm mixing. Unfortunately we don't have an API2500 compressor. All we have in the studio is a Solid state Logic x-rack stereo compressor and a DRAWMER DL 441. I do not have any plans of adding any sort of signal processors during the recording process. What about using a Sennheiser MD421 with a Neumann u87? Or maybe Neumann U87 and a Helisound PR-30? Would you recommend this combinations? And i will have another track recording the guitars through a Countryman DI box. Thanks


Thanks a lot for the tip

The SSL - I'm assuming it's the E series and not the G series 2bus module - should be ok albeit it may be a bit too clean and transparent for guitar. I like SSL comps but used to find them better on voc and some drums (but that was years ago on an old 9000 console and things may have changed in their design by now though). I kind of associate the SSL sound with the late 80s and 90s and if you're after a more 70s type sound it might be tricky to get. Regardless I'd probably opt for the SSL over the Drawmer, not least as it has attack and release whereas if I remember the Drawmer it's auto. Also I think the Drawmer doubles up as a comp/limiter and is VCA - if it is you might find that it starts to distort the waveform if you push it. If it's the SSL G series 2 bus - again I think it's better than the Drawmer but be very careful with anything you on the 2 bus.

(Sorry if I sound like I'm negative about the Drawmer. It's fine for use, I just think the SSL is more versatile as the SSL has attack and release.)

MD421 and U87 should be good. Never come across a Hellsound so I can't comment.

Are you using an SSL for the preamps as you have an X rack?

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[Ben Higgins]

It's the slight imperfections in each track, in terms of playing, that add to the thickness.

Exactly. It's the human element that makes it sound full. If you record 1 guitar track, copy it and then pan them L & R, it still just sounds like 1 guitar in mono but louder. But if you record 2 seperate takes, it sounds so much bigger.

Believe it or not, you don't need more than 2 either.. I've read loads of interviews with guys who used to do the wall of sound thing but when they had a good producer who showed them how effective 2 guitars were, they never went back.

If you're the only guitarist in the band, 2 rhythm tracks will rock.. if there's 2 of you.. 1 each is enough.

P.S. The only way people like Hetfield & Scott Ian were able to make the thick wall of sound work was because, even thought those bands have 2 guitarists, they recorded all the rhythm guitars themselves so they were able to make it tighter but if you had 2 different people try and record multiple rhythm takes the variation would be so much that it would sound messy.

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This post has been edited by Ben Higgins: Jul 17 2011, 11:15 AM

[El Fortinero]

play strong man, i mean, hit the strings with power ( not exagerately, of course) the actittude should be recorded in every take.

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[Ivan Milenkovic]

As far as mixing goes, it's best to leave it to the professional. Your role as a composer/arranger is such that you keep the arrangement interesting. Dynamics has to exist to allow the song to be alive. Adding some very simple elements is usually better than adding complicated arrangements. So, playing only pedal note here and there, dubbing fat downbeat riff only from time to time, or adding couple of notes here and there will all together sound complicated enough.

Don't worry about creating space in the mix during recording process, yes some cutting is needed (like tony suggested the hi-pass @ 90Hz on guitar track) but it's also important to provide as healthiest and richest recording available. This is one of the most important things when insisting on a "huge" sound. Having fat and rich sound depends on what you have in the mix. If you record rich, you'll have what to shape, if you record thin, you will hardly be able to "create" frequencies.

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[badfingers93]

As far as mixing goes, it's best to leave it to the professional. Your role as a composer/arranger is such that you keep the arrangement interesting. Dynamics has to exist to allow the song to be alive. Adding some very simple elements is usually better than adding complicated arrangements. So, playing only pedal note here and there, dubbing fat downbeat riff only from time to time, or adding couple of notes here and there will all together sound complicated enough.

Don't worry about creating space in the mix during recording process, yes some cutting is needed (like tony suggested the hi-pass @ 90Hz on guitar track) but it's also important to provide as healthiest and richest recording available. This is one of the most important things when insisting on a "huge" sound. Having fat and rich sound depends on what you have in the mix. If you record rich, you'll have what to shape, if you record thin, you will hardly be able to "create" frequencies.

Haha...thanks again ivan. But i don't think you see the real situation for me here. I am actually an audio engineering student and recording and mixing is what we learn and do everyday (well, almost). It's just that this is an assignment that i'm doing, which is to compose a song, record and also mix and master it at the end all by ourselves. I wish i could ask a professional to do the mixing for me But nonetheless, thanks a lot for the advice

Exactly. It's the human element that makes it sound full. If you record 1 guitar track, copy it and then pan them L & R, it still just sounds like 1 guitar in mono but louder. But if you record 2 seperate takes, it sounds so much bigger.

Believe it or not, you don't need more than 2 either.. I've read loads of interviews with guys who used to do the wall of sound thing but when they had a good producer who showed them how effective 2 guitars were, they never went back.

If you're the only guitarist in the band, 2 rhythm tracks will rock.. if there's 2 of you.. 1 each is enough.

P.S. The only way people like Hetfield & Scott Ian were able to make the thick wall of sound work was because, even thought those bands have 2 guitarists, they recorded all the rhythm guitars themselves so they were able to make it tighter but if you had 2 different people try and record multiple rhythm takes the variation would be so much that it would sound messy.

Thanks Ben Yep, i think i'll just stick with recording two tracks.

play strong man, i mean, hit the strings with power ( not exagerately, of course) the actittude should be recorded in every take.

Great tip! Thanks

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[Gabriel Leopardi]

After these great posts I think that there is nothing to add... Tony explained perfectly every aspect to get awesome guitars. I've used many mics for recording a guitar but I rarely used one of them to capture the room reverberations... it doesn't worked for me in the mix the few times that I tried it.. do you have any suggestions Tony? What would add a ambient mic to these guitars for example?

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[Saoirse O'Shea]

...It's just that this is an assignment that i'm doing, which is to compose a song, record and also mix and master it at the end all by ourselves. ...

IMHO as an assignment they should stipulate that mastering more often than not is best done in a specialised mastering studio by someone who was not involved in recording and mixing. Mastering is much more about critical objectivity than about the processing. If you recorded and mixed the take it is unlikely that you will have sufficient objectivity to critically listen to and correct your mix as most people like to think that their mix is already 'perfect'. Additionally, many mix issues are down to the studio monitoring and acoustics. Quite simply you can not correct what you can not hear accurately. Mastering studios and monitors are acoustically different to mix studios not least as a mastering studio is set up to be as accurate as possible rather than musically flattering.

Gab - it's not easy to tell from a Youtube video but what a room mic will or should help add is a sense of front to back stereo depth. A close mic generally doesn't provide enough distance from source to mic to allow it to pick up reflections, whereas a mic set further back can and does. It 's these reflections that help here. How well it does this depends on placement and the room. Placement here is both dependent on distance from the source and any reflective surfaces including corners. This isn't however just about reverb but also about the low end frequencies. The low end usually benefits from reflection much more than the high frequencies because of the very slight time difference betwen the direct and the reflected signals. It's this that helps give a sense of front to back depth and sadly it seems to be something that a lot of modern recordings miss out: they pay attention to the width of the stereo field left to right but not the stereo depth and as a result far too often the music lacks spatial depth. Spatial depth is a big reason why many orchestras are recorded using a relatively simple three mic arrangement, with the mics at close, middle and far distance. It helps the listener locate where the instruments are in the orchestra so that they can clearly hear, for instance, that the 2nd violin section is behind and to the left of the 1st and infrot of the woodwind, rather than merely a little to the left of the 1st and standing with the woodwind.

WRT reverb - rooms all have different reverb characteristics depending on size, shape and constuction. It may be that your studio is treated to significantly reduce reflections and if so that would result in a space with little reverb. Many studios are often deliberately dry as it can often be better to record dry as reverb is extremely hard to remove once its there. A dry room lets you chose if you want to add reverb at mixing and also chose the type of reverb. One potential issue is recording in a wet room and adding yet more, and different, reverb at mixing is that it will end in an ill defined mess. Nonetheless just in the context of getting a fuller guitar at recording mic'ing so that you pick up natural room ambience can help - just so long as your careful that it's not overdone . (Also in the case of many smaller project studios, natural reverb usully sounds better than any reverb soft/hardware that they have. Good reverb unit tend to be pretty expensive.)

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[Adrian Figallo]

my two cents, play all the doubled takes as close as you can to the original, they would NEVER sound the same to get phase problems, but if they tend to sound heavier if you play them close together, at least thats what my ears like

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[Gabriel Leopardi]

IMHO as an assignment they should stipulate that mastering more often than not is best done in a specialised mastering studio by someone who was not involved in recording and mixing. Mastering is much more about critical objectivity than about the processing. If you recorded and mixed the take it is unlikely that you will have sufficient objectivity to critically listen to and correct your mix as most people like to think that their mix is already 'perfect'. Additionally, many mix issues are down to the studio monitoring and acoustics. Quite simply you can not correct what you can not hear accurately. Mastering studios and monitors are acoustically different to mix studios not least as a mastering studio is set up to be as accurate as possible rather than musically flattering.

Gab - it's not easy to tell from a Youtube video but what a room mic will or should help add is a sense of front to back stereo depth. A close mic generally doesn't provide enough distance from source to mic to allow it to pick up reflections, whereas a mic set further back can and does. It 's these reflections that help here. How well it does this depends on placement and the room. Placement here is both dependent on distance from the source and any reflective surfaces including corners. This isn't however just about reverb but also about the low end frequencies. The low end usually benefits from reflection much more than the high frequencies because of the very slight time difference betwen the direct and the reflected signals. It's this that helps give a sense of front to back depth and sadly it seems to be something that a lot of modern recordings miss out: they pay attention to the width of the stereo field left to right but not the stereo depth and as a result far too often the music lacks spatial depth. Spatial depth is a big reason why many orchestras are recorded using a relatively simple three mic arrangement, with the mics at close, middle and far distance. It helps the listener locate where the instruments are in the orchestra so that they can clearly hear, for instance, that the 2nd violin section is behind and to the left of the 1st and infrot of the woodwind, rather than merely a little to the left of the 1st and standing with the woodwind.

WRT reverb - rooms all have different reverb characteristics depending on size, shape and constuction. It may be that your studio is treated to significantly reduce reflections and if so that would result in a space with little reverb. Many studios are often deliberately dry as it can often be better to record dry as reverb is extremely hard to remove once its there. A dry room lets you chose if you want to add reverb at mixing and also chose the type of reverb. One potential issue is recording in a wet room and adding yet more, and different, reverb at mixing is that it will end in an ill defined mess. Nonetheless just in the context of getting a fuller guitar at recording mic'ing so that you pick up natural room ambience can help - just so long as your careful that it's not overdone . (Also in the case of many smaller project studios, natural reverb usully sounds better than any reverb soft/hardware that they have. Good reverb unit tend to be pretty expensive.)

Thanks for clarifying Tony. My recording room isn't too big so the reverb that I could get is little, however I will experiment with this...

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