Following On From Discussion In Gab's Jam Options

[Phil66]

Hello folks,

I've been working with MisterM and Madfish Blues in the thread "Gab Jams Blues With You". MisterM and I got discussing soloing over a backing, both spontaneous and composed. Gab liked the discussion and said GMC are always open to suggestions for lessons. To save cluttering up the jamming thread, maybe we could continue here

I've watched this and I think it could help BUT, he was going far too quickly for me. I think covering this veeery slowly could help, maybe concentrating on one particular shape for a long time to get it internalised. Is this something to do with the CAGED system? I get really confused with music theory I have read Andrew Cockburn's CAGED section in the GMC theory forum but personally, I need working examples, videos, demonstrations, homework assignments etc. Really small baby steps too so that it doesn't take a lot out of my already limited practise time.
https://youtu.be/jUycCxd_6GI




I also watched this and was bamboozled

https://youtu.be/JVmeRbqLowI


A lot of the stuff on YouTube seems to race ahead, for me anyway and I spend a lot of time searching and watching only to find that it isn't presented very well. Maybe it's just me overthinking things as usual

Cheers

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 16 2018, 08:03 PM

[Gabriel Leopardi]

Hi Phil,

CAGED system is an easy way to visualize chord shapes and scales all along the fretboard. We will definitely work on something, thanks again for the request.

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[Todd Simpson]

Many youtube videos leave you wanting more. The best thing to do is exactly what you did and request some information We are always here to help. One thing I'd suggest doing is try to see the entire fretboard in a single key in one type of scale, for example the Blues scale in the key of E. Notice where the root notes are along the way. This is one way to build scale runs and to build lead licks that are always in key. These shape are always the same. The only thing that changes The scale generator is very handy for this. Once you have the map of the shapes in your mind, you can transpose it to any key you like. For example, if you want to transpose to the key of A. Just move the first position from the key of E in the diagram below, up to the 7th fret. Now your in the key of A. It's that simple. The shapes themselves do not change, the only thing that changes is where you start. Here is the Blues Minor scale all the way to the 12th fret where it repeats all over again. This is perhaps the most useful scale on earth IMHO. It always works. It always sounds good when played well. It's worth memorizing. Folks call it differnt things, "cage system" etc. But it boils down to memorizing shape essentially, and this is the starting point for most every solo you've ever heard in your entire life. Find a backing in E Blues and just look at this scale diagram. Then start moving your fingers to match the pattern. Land on a root note now and then to resolve the scale. I've heard some youtubers say NOT to land on the root which IMHO is simply flat out wrong. The root is what brings resolution to any scale. Of course, later, you may not want to resolve. But especially at first, it can sound VERY wrong if you don't resolve.

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[Phil66]

Thanks Gab and Todd,

I tend to stick to pentatonic in the one box shape I know with the minor root on low E string on index finger and major root on pinkie. I fnd that the added "blue" note sounds off for some reason, it sounds like I've played a "wrong" note.

I'm wondering if one of the GMC instructors would have time to do a boot camp style thing. CAGED Camp, could be huge like boot camp and could, like boot camp, build on each previous lesson. Small chunks, no time restraints, could work I think, I just can't think how it would need to be put together.

Cheers

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[Todd Simpson]

Some good news there, many of the Bootcamp Missions are already built around the Pentatonic Shapes. Wads of them in fact. Also they do build on each other.

Thanks Gab and Todd,

I tend to stick to pentatonic in the one box shape I know with the minor root on low E string on index finger and major root on pinkie. I fnd that the added "blue" note sounds off for some reason, it sounds like I've played a "wrong" note.

I'm wondering if one of the GMC instructors would have time to do a boot camp style thing. CAGED Camp, could be huge like boot camp and could, like boot camp, build on each previous lesson. Small chunks, no time restraints, could work I think, I just can't think how it would need to be put together.

Cheers

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[Phil66]

Thanks Todd,

I know that but I'm thinking that maybe a bootcamp style progressive lesson series based purely on building the understanding of the CAGED system using practical examples and explanations so that the theoretical understanding develops from the practical applications.

I hope this makes sense, I'm struggling to put down what's in my head

Phil

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[MonkeyDAthos]

I thinking learning scale shapes and play it over a backing can have a very instant gradification effect to it which is nice.
From personal experience it feels someone show you a word and the sound of it.
You got really good at copying it but that's it. You don't even know what individual letters make out the word. And once things go slight diferent that word is of no good.

This is quite a tedious approach and will probably take a few months to really see a outcome, but I found I internalize things better if I figure out the shapes myself. Letter by letter.
GO! back to the very basics.

Something like:


Part 1.

For instance lets take a C.

Set the metronome to any X tempo and try to find all the C.



Send some time with it, even days!. Untill you feel like you can blaze any C from first fret untill the very last one.

Part 2.

Lets add an E



Tackle it the same way you did with C.
Set the metronome and try to find all the E all over the neck. Then switch between Es and Cs.

Part 2.1

The distance between two notes is call an interval. So what is E to C.
Lets count.
C - Unison; C# - Minor 2nd; D - Major 2nd; D# - Minor 3rd; E - Major 3rd.

The 3rds are the intervals that dictates if a chord is Major or Minor

Now we know the distance between C E is a Major Third. So lets find it all over the neck.



Spend a few days with this! But now you should now how to do C major from earth to the sun.

Part 2.3
I also recommend for you to play a C and try to sing the E. That way you will be training yourself to ear and sing Major 3rds.

Part 3.

Now lets learn a G.



Take some time with it and do runs where you cycle between C E and G.

Part 3.1

What's the G to C.

Lets count.

C - Unison; C# - Minor 2nd; D - Major 2nd; D# - Minor 3rd; E - Major 3rd. F - Perfect 4th: G - Perfect 5th.


Now we know the distance between C G is a Perfect Fifth.
So far C E G - > C: Root; E: Major Third; G: Perfect Fifth.
We now have a C Major Triad.

Part 3.1.1
Now that you know that a Major Triad is composed by a Root, Major 3rd and Perfect 5th. Try and right down in a papper all major triads from which giving note. Even though were are just focusing in C major triad on the guitar neck. Its nice to know in our head what and D major triad looks like, what a Eb Major triad looks like. etc.

Part 3.2
Lets go over the neck an apply what we learnt but now mixing a G.



I beat you staring to see some familiar shapes.
Now rather than picking out the metronome and going up and down. Simple pick a C then pick E and say it out loud this is an E then pick a G! Be Conscious rather than letting your fingers walk mindlessly through a shape.

After this you should be able to walkthrough C major voicings and arpeggious all over the neck.
And the thing is those shapes will remains the same for every Major (Unison - Major 3rd - Perfect 5) triad.

Part 3.3

Now lets to try to sing it.
From C - E (1 - M3)
From C - G (1 - P5)
C - E - G (1 - 3 -P5)

Just focus a bit on the basic permutations untill you are able to recoginze Major 3rds and Perfect 5ths on a go.

Then try to Loop a Major chord and try to sing lines between those 3 notes. But be aware of the notes!

....

So on! So on. Before this post gets to long.
But this is the quick overview of how I would approach guitar these days.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Oct 20 2018, 08:08 PM

[Phil66]

Thanks Monkey, now I'm confused

Why is it called "perfect" 5th?? Your post would be great for me if it was spread out over about 6 lessons. I really appreciate you taking the time buddy, thank you, I just get confused with theory.

Thanks again, very kind of you

Phil

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[MonkeyDAthos]

Thanks Monkey, now I'm confused

Why is it called "perfect" 5th?? Your post would be great for me if it was spread out over about 6 lessons. I really appreciate you taking the time buddy, thank you, I just get confused with theory.

Thanks again, very kind of you

Phil

Well I think it goes back to Pythagoras and the measurement of frequencies, I am pretty sure someone in the forum could explain it better than myself. My physics ain't so great.

But as I said its just the name of the distance that's 7 half-tones or 3t whole-ones and half from any given note.

Here's an exemple of a perfect fifth.



From 0:07 and 0:09 ( in this case Eb - F which is the same distance as in C - G)

Or a Power Chord.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Oct 20 2018, 08:20 PM

[Phil66]

Ahhhh, the mighty Pythagoras, I am a precision engineer so I'm very familiar with that man. Why did he make triangles so simple and music so freakin hard????

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[MonkeyDAthos]

I think its cool to know why. Especially if you into the studies related with the physics of sound.

Imagine you have one meter and add 9 meters. You get 10 meters. But why is it call 10. . Just a unit of measurement. I don't really care about the origins of "Ten"

Same way from C to G is a Perfect Fifth. P5 is just a unit of measurement same way 10 is.
I don't think its something to overthink about.

I wouldnt mind doing a more thought out post. But I can barely find time for myself, being in Music School and what not.
You probably better off with the instructors here. For a more consistent interaction.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Oct 20 2018, 08:46 PM

[Phil66]

Man, my problem is overthinking, I always like to know "WHY???". A friend once showed me two chords, A and A7, I said "Why is it called A7?" He said, "It's just the name of that chord, it's called A7". I had to go and find out what the 7 meant. It's something that is built into my brain. If I'm told something I can't just accept it, I have to know WHY WHY WHY. It can be a curse at times

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[MonkeyDAthos]

Man, my problem is overthinking, I always like to know "WHY???". A friend once showed me two chords, A and A7, I said "Why is it called A7?" He said, "It's just the name of that chord, it's called A7". I had to go and find out what the 7 meant. It's something that is built into my brain. If I'm told something I can't just accept it, I have to know WHY WHY WHY. It can be a curse at times

Well in that case you were the right to ask why. Because that's no just the name of the chord but the quality of it.
A is a simple major triad.

So the triad of A major as Root Major 3rd and Perfect Fifth,
So counting from A (highlighting with CAPS):
A(ROOT)
a#-(minor 2nd)
b-(major 2nd)
c-(minor third)
C#(MAJOR 3rd)
d-(pefect 4th)
d#-(Tritone) The name may vary, don't fret about it for now.
E-(Perfect Fifth)

So A means ( A - C# - E ) (Unison or Root(1) - Major 3rd(3) - Perfect Fifth(5))

While A7 (A dominant 7) it means a major triad plus a minor 7. Its just a label that tells you the chord has (1 - 3 - 5 - b7(minor 7th))

So if you count again.

A(ROOT or Perfect Unision)
a#-(minor 2nd)
b-(major 2nd)
c-(minor third)
C#(MAJOR 3rd)
d-(pefect 4th)
d#-(Tritone)
E-(Perfect Fifth)
f- (minor sixth)
f#-(major sixth)
G - (MINOR 7th)
g#-(major 7th)
A-(Perfect Octave if you wanna get academic or just octave)

So at the end of the day A7 means ( A - C# - E - G ).

And that's the difference between A and A7


So my best advice for you. It to get familiar with the intervalic system. Forget about building chords just go from like C to C and name all intervals in between.

Its like the multiplication table but for music

And try to as i sayid find for exemple just a C all over the guitar neck, that way you wont be stuck in a box. You will be able to target that note anywhere that you wish.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Oct 20 2018, 09:07 PM

[Phil66]

Man I thought I knew what the A7 was but now I'm just

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 21 2018, 10:06 AM

[MonkeyDAthos]

Mam I thought I knew what the A7 was but now I'm just

Its not that hard. Quite straigh foward

For instance, taking in consideration all that I said can you name the notes that make a G major triad.

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[Todd Simpson]

Before getting that far, it's a good thing to be able to know just the notes on the first open E string.Just as a place to start. If you can learn the notes from Open E to 12th fret they repeat.
Once you learn that, (I'm not sure where you are on theory) you can move to the A string and you already know all the notes, because you just start with A and keep going til you hit the 12th fret where they start again.
So on and so forth for each string.

Once you understand that, you can find any note you want on any string. Once you have that, it's time to start with some basic scales. The Major scale is a good place to start as it's a foundational scale. the basic shape is very simple. The scale generator can show you from any point, but once you get the shape, you just move it around as long as you start on the E string, and you can transpose to any key. Just like the Pentaonic, or any scale, all the shapes in the Major Scale connect all the way up the fretboard. Learning these fretboard maps can take time, but it allows you to build your understanding of where notes live on the neck. If you learn the Major, and Natural Minor Scales (here's a secret, they are both the same shapes at different points on the neck so if you learn one then you already know both) on the neck from open to 12th fret, you are well on your way.

In terms of "Perfect Fifth". The simple answer is that it's just five steps up from the root note. So if you are in the Major scale, move up the scale and when you reach the fifth note, you are at a fifth. Most power chords are based on the First (root) Fifth relationship. In more technical terms, a perfect fifth is the musical interval corresponding to a pair of pitches with a frequency ratio of 3:2, in a diatonic scale. But that's probably a bit more theory than is helpful here.
Todd

Its not that hard. Quite straigh foward

For instance, taking in consideration all that I said can you name the notes that make a G major triad.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 21 2018, 04:57 AM

[klasaine]

From 0:07 and 0:09 ( in this case Eb - F which is the same distance as in C - G)

Or a Power Chord.

Eb to Bb (not F). 8 frets up
*Eb to F is a major 2nd. A whole step. 3 frets (from where you start) on the guitar.

In music, regardless of the instrument or even if it's just 'theory' away from any instrument, when you're counting and/or moving intervals - always start with where you are.

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[MonkeyDAthos]

Eb to Bb (not F). 8 frets up
*Eb to F is a major 2nd. A whole step. 3 frets (from where you start) on the guitar.

In music, regardless of the instrument or even if it's just 'theory' away from any instrument, when you're counting and/or moving intervals - always start with where you are.

That's right I meant to type Eb Bb but was thinking of Bb F.. which was a brain fart on my end.

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This post has been edited by MonkeyDAthos: Oct 21 2018, 04:01 PM

[Todd Simpson]

I fear we may have gone way to deep on theory on this thread for it to be practical. But it's all done in the spirit of trying to help

Todd

That's right I meant to type Eb Bb but was thinking of Bb F.. which was a brain fart on my end.

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