Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Diminished Arpeggios
crushpuppy
post Nov 5 2011, 12:56 PM
Post #1


Learning Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Joined: 5-November 11
From: Arizona
Member No.: 14.294



Hi all!
I am a newbie here and was wondering if anyone could tell me the best way to apply diminished arpeggios when you solo.
Obviously they are everywhere on Yngwie's recordings but I find when I practice soloing they don't seem to fit very well.
What is the proper way to use them in your opinion? Thank you in advance
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daniel Realpe
post Nov 5 2011, 03:40 PM
Post #2


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 5.655
Joined: 11-October 09
From: Bogota
Member No.: 7.694



I think you should treat diminished with the same importance as major and minor,

As you may know they appear on the 7th degree of the major scale and the harmonic minor,

They are very symmetric, if you move by minor 3rds they will always fit inside the same key.

You are right Yngwie uses them a lot and a lot of neoclassical guys, but they are also used in fusion and jazz a lot


--------------------
Visit my:
INSTRUCTOR PROFILE

"If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music."
Gustav Mahler


Subscribe to my Youtube Channel here
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ben Higgins
post Nov 5 2011, 07:24 PM
Post #3


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 13.765
Joined: 11-March 10
From: England
Member No.: 9.820



Hey there, do you mean you have trouble applying them rhythmically or the notes themselves don't sound right over the backing ?

Yngwie (and most people who use the 3 string shapes, the ones on the high E, B & G) use them in a 16th note triplet form.. 1,2,3,4,5,6 - 1,2,3,4,5,6 but played very quickly ! ohmy.gif



--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
crushpuppy
post Nov 6 2011, 01:35 AM
Post #4


Learning Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Joined: 5-November 11
From: Arizona
Member No.: 14.294



QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Nov 5 2011, 06:24 PM) *
Hey there, do you mean you have trouble applying them rhythmically or the notes themselves don't sound right over the backing ?

Yngwie (and most people who use the 3 string shapes, the ones on the high E, B & G) use them in a 16th note triplet form.. 1,2,3,4,5,6 - 1,2,3,4,5,6 but played very quickly ! ohmy.gif



I can play them, I am just searching for the right chords to play them over. I'm thinking m7b5 but that chord doesent come up to often in rock progressions or backing tracks. I would think the chord underneath would be minor but I just can't seem to get a firm understanding of when to play a diminished arpeggio over what.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ben Higgins
post Nov 6 2011, 09:35 AM
Post #5


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 13.765
Joined: 11-March 10
From: England
Member No.: 9.820



QUOTE (crushpuppy @ Nov 6 2011, 01:35 AM) *
I can play them, I am just searching for the right chords to play them over. I'm thinking m7b5 but that chord doesent come up to often in rock progressions or backing tracks. I would think the chord underneath would be minor but I just can't seem to get a firm understanding of when to play a diminished arpeggio over what.


The way Yngwie uses them is even simpler than that, he basically uses power chords so he's usually soloing over a root and 5th chord shape. Usually, depending on the other chord involved, the whole thing falls under one key, like Eminor for example. The root and 5th chord structure mean there's no major or minor tonalities found in the chords which allows him to choose darker sounding modes like Phrygian Dominant, Harmonic Minor etc..

Pretend you've got an E5 powerchord.. you could either stick in straight Eminor or you could go for E Phrygian Dominant (the Yngwie scale) this will give you a minor second and major 3rd. If you start a diminished progression on the Major 3rd it will sound 'in'. Start at the 3rd and climb up in minor 3rds from there. In theory, I think it should mean that the arpeggios fall within notes that are in the Phrygian Dominant scale.

You could start a diminished progression on the root of E itself but it will give a different feel entirely.. try experimenting a bit but you'll find that you don't have to try so hard with finding exotic chords, it's just knowing when you can use them over the simple, everyday chords smile.gif



--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
crushpuppy
post Nov 6 2011, 02:26 PM
Post #6


Learning Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Joined: 5-November 11
From: Arizona
Member No.: 14.294



QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Nov 6 2011, 08:35 AM) *
The way Yngwie uses them is even simpler than that, he basically uses power chords so he's usually soloing over a root and 5th chord shape. Usually, depending on the other chord involved, the whole thing falls under one key, like Eminor for example. The root and 5th chord structure mean there's no major or minor tonalities found in the chords which allows him to choose darker sounding modes like Phrygian Dominant, Harmonic Minor etc..

Pretend you've got an E5 powerchord.. you could either stick in straight Eminor or you could go for E Phrygian Dominant (the Yngwie scale) this will give you a minor second and major 3rd. If you start a diminished progression on the Major 3rd it will sound 'in'. Start at the 3rd and climb up in minor 3rds from there. In theory, I think it should mean that the arpeggios fall within notes that are in the Phrygian Dominant scale.

You could start a diminished progression on the root of E itself but it will give a different feel entirely.. try experimenting a bit but you'll find that you don't have to try so hard with finding exotic chords, it's just knowing when you can use them over the simple, everyday chords smile.gif



Thanks Ben I think i've got it.
Question though..... The scale you mentioned "Phrygian Dominant" is that the "Phrygian Major" scale just called by a different name?
thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ben Higgins
post Nov 6 2011, 04:57 PM
Post #7


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 13.765
Joined: 11-March 10
From: England
Member No.: 9.820



QUOTE (crushpuppy @ Nov 6 2011, 02:26 PM) *
Thanks Ben I think i've got it.
Question though..... The scale you mentioned "Phrygian Dominant" is that the "Phrygian Major" scale just called by a different name?
thanks


Yes, that's right smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Professor
post Jan 28 2013, 06:03 PM
Post #8


Theory Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 888
Joined: 8-January 13
From: Manchester UK
Member No.: 17.394



There are two places to apply dim arpeggios when beginning to explore them. Over a dim or dim7 chord, so playing a C dim arpeggio over a Cdim chord.

You can also start them on the 3rd of any 7th chord.

So, if you have G7, you can play Bdim arpeggio to outline that chord.

G7 is spelled G B D F and Bdim is spelled B D F, so it's like you are playing the 3rd, 5th and 7th of G7 when you play Bdim in it's place.

Check it out, fun application of Dim arpeggios!


--------------------
Ask me anything on the theory board. Follow my theory course. Check out my personal site
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
David.C.Bond
post Jan 30 2013, 11:19 AM
Post #9


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 442
Joined: 1-December 07
From: Leeds, UK.
Member No.: 3.415



Dim 7 arpeggios are from the dim scale, and as The Professor mentioned work really well over dom7 chords (gives you dom13b9). You can visualise them as two dim 7 arpeggios a semitone apart, working up the neck in minor thirds. Dim scale also works as a tension scale over dorian, or even lydian so the arpeggios could work here too smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th January 2017 - 12:38 AM